Flashback....Rondo vs Pierce

[CelticsFanNC]

  Flash back 5 or 6 years ago.  

  Paul Pierce was a marvelously talented player but was also an enigma.  About half of the Celtic's fan base wanted him shipped out of town.  Many considered him to be a selfish gunner who only cared about getting his.  He was accused by fans of traveling over to the "dark side" after run ins with Doc River's, teammates  and opposing players.  He didn't defend much and didn't share the ball with his teammates.  He embarrassed(towel head interview?) Celtic nation on a couple of instances with his public behavior. He refused to run the court and got pulled from games more then once by Doc Rivers.  His surrounding cast was the "not ready for prime time Celtic's" of Al Jefferson and Delonte West.  They didn't fit him and he didn't fit them.  He was widely considered a very talented but also flawed player.  The general sentiment around Celtic Nation was the Paul Pierce needed to go.

 Flash forward to today.  Most of the Celtics fan base is appalled by the idea of Paul Pierce being traded away.  People are saying he is a Celtic legend and should finish his career in Boston.  It took surrounding Paul Pierce with the right supporting casts for him to get to this place.

  Now look at Rajon Rondo.  He is an enigma who has spent his entire career playing with a surrounding casts that doesn't allow him to thrive because they cannot play the way he plays when he is at his best.  There have been attitude issues, some real, some imagined.  He is very talented but also perceived to be a flawed player.  Many in the Celtic's fan base are screaming for him to be traded away.

  The biggest difference between the two other then style of play is that Rondo is actually a couple of years younger then Pierce was then.  He is more accomplished on a team level due to his ring but a bit less accomplished individually due to less All-Star appearances.

  Those who say Rondo needs to go need to be careful what they wish for.  Rondo is a proven winner who comes up big in the post season(much like Pierce pre-Big Three....when he got to the post season anyways).  No he isn't perfect.  Either was the messiah Paul Pierce only a few short years ago.  Surround Rondo with a cast that fits his game much like Ainge did for Pierce in the summer of 2007 and we will almost certainly see a different and more consistent Rajon Rondo.

[greenpride32]

Pierce is a sure fire hall of famer, perennial all star, and a legitimate franchise player; Rondo is none of those (at least not yet).  There really are no comparisons to be made here. 

[CelticsFanNC]

Pierce is a sure fire hall of famer, perennial all star, and a legitimate franchise player; Rondo is none of those (at least not yet).  There really are no comparisons to be made here.  

  The point is Pierce wasn't considered a HOFer and was a franchise player for a floundering franchise a few short years ago.  Much like Rondo today, much of the Celtic's fan base back then wanted Pierce gone.   It took surrounding Pierce with the right kind of players to change his image not only league wide but right here in Celtic Nation.  Pierce was a perennial All-Star yes, Rondo was last year and would be there this year had he not gotten hurt.  Right or wrong, Pierce back then wasn't really viewed as a winner, Rondo right now is viewed as a winner.

  It is comparable.  The way people blame Rondo for every single thing that goes wrong with the Celtic's today, Celtic fans were on message boards(probably this one, I was a member of another) doing the very same to Paul Pierce pre-big three.

  Now Pierce cannot be traded according to many.  That wasn't the case a few years ago.

 Maybe trading Rondo right now is a bit short sighted since he is younger now then Pierce was then.  Rondo has also proven he can be a big part of a title contender.  No one knew for sure if Pierce was able to do that back then.  I thought he could but I didn't know for sure.

[Carhole]

This myth that PP didnt share the ball before ray and kg got here is ridiculous. Same with the myth that he didnt defend, he defended quite consistently and quite well for O'brien and Doc. Our team D was not nearly as good and i do not think he was as consistent with it bc of the burden he carried on offensive end.

And the people who wanted them out are the same people that always want everyone out without understanding the game or the situation players/coaches are in with given teams.

He has only taken 20 per game in a season ONCE. and that was bc O'brien just told him and toine to gun away.

He "fought" with doc. Another overblown point, he resisted but also had his biggest increase in efficiency as an offensive player in the first year doc was here and was doing nothing but singing the praises of doc's offensive strategy at the end of that year. Rondo has been with doc for 5 years now, not 1

Comparing where PP was at as a player 6 years ago to where rondo is right now doesnt hold water to me

[BballTim]

This myth that PP didnt share the ball before ray and kg got here is ridiculous. Same with the myth that he didnt defend, he defended quite consistently and quite well for O'brien and Doc.

  Almost as ridiculous as the myth that Rondo tries to pad his assist totals, or that he lets his man get by him on purpose in order to try and poke the ball loose from behind.

[CelticsFanNC]

Comparing where PP was at as a player 6 years ago to where rondo is right now doesnt hold water to me

  That's your opinion and I respect your right to it but I completely disagree.

  At a younger age Rondo has already shown beyond any doubt that he can be a key member of an NBA title contender.  Even if he wasn't a huge key on the title team he was a huge key on the team that lost in game 7 of the Finals in 2010.  Pierce was almost 30 by the time he showed himself capable of being a key member of a title contender.  Rondo is 25.

  Rondo also has proven he is a special talent with a penchant for coming up HUGE in the post season but being a bit of an enigma.  That to me sounds a whole lot like Paul Pierce Pre 2007.

[CelticsFanNC]

This myth that PP didnt share the ball before ray and kg got here is ridiculous. Same with the myth that he didnt defend, he defended quite consistently and quite well for O'brien and Doc.

  Almost as ridiculous as the myth that Rondo tries to pad his assist totals, or that he lets his man get by him on purpose in order to try and poke the ball loose from behind.

  It is a myth.  

I didn't say any of it was true.  I said that is the way Paul Pierce was widely perceived around the NBA and even in Celtic Nation before 2007.  That was Paul Pierce's reputation.  I didn't say I believed any of it only that it was out there.  Non-Celtic fans almost unanimously didn't respect Paul Pierce and most bought into those myths.  Outside of the Celtic bubble Paul Pierce's reputation wasn't very good pre 2007 and no one other then Celtic fans considered him a HOFer.

  Sorry if I didn't make that completely clear in my original post.   I was a huge defender of Paul Pierce back then much like I am a defender or Rondo today.

[ScoobyDoo]

I agree with you on this CelticsFanNC. Couple points:

1. Rondo is a difficult personality to deal with, I don't doubt that. But most very talented players also come with a complicated mental mix as well. Rondo is a "driver" and he is going to challenge people. And he should.

2. I liked the fire he showed in Toronto against the refs on a no call - he sucked that game, but at least he was showing some ****' passion and was out there fighting.

3. He's a square peg in a round hole - as Jeff said in his article a few days ago.

4. Just because he can't dominate games down the stretch with his "shooting" doesn't mean he isn't a dominant player. Rodman dominated games by rebounding - he "needed" Jordan to score.

5. Surround Rondo with an uptempo team and a couple of offensive closers, that's all you need.

During the first 2-3 seasons of the big three, Pierce, Ray and even KG were offensive closers, they aren't as much now.

Should we therefore blame Rondo for the lack of our current success which has a lot to due with Pierce and Ray  and to a lesser extent KG (because his role has always been defensive team leader, and secondary scorer) not doing their jobs in closing out games at the levels they used to? No.

And I'm not "blaming" Pierce and Ray - it's just a fact of their games fading away. But for us to be successful as currently constructed, Pierce and Ray must find a way to close games offensively. Even though they are older, their combined effort against a crap Pistons team was unacceptable.
   

[CelticsFanNC]

I agree with you on this CelticsFanNC. Couple points:

1. Rondo is a difficult personality to deal with, I don't doubt that. But most very talented players also come with a complicated mental mix as well. Rondo is a "driver" and he is going to challenge people. And he should.

2. I liked the fire he showed in Toronto against the refs on a no call - he sucked that game, but at least he was showing some ****' passion and was out there fighting.

3. He's a square peg in a round hole - as Jeff said in his article a few days ago.

4. Just because he can't dominate games down the stretch with his "shooting" doesn't mean he isn't a dominant player. Rodman dominated games by rebounding - he "needed" Jordan to score.

5. Surround Rondo with an uptempo team and a couple of offensive closers, that's all you need.

During the first 2-3 seasons of the big three, Pierce, Ray and even KG were offensive closers, they aren't as much now.

Should we therefore blame Rondo for the lack of our current success which has a lot to due with Pierce and Ray  and to a lesser extent KG (because his role has always been defensive team leader, and secondary scorer) not doing their jobs in closing out games at the levels they used to? No.

And I'm not "blaming" Pierce and Ray - it's just a fact of their games fading away. But for us to be successful as currently constructed, Pierce and Ray must find a way to close games offensively. Even though they are older, their combined effort against a crap Pistons team was unacceptable.
    

  Absolutely.  Just look at the effect putting Wilcox out there with Rondo has had on Rondo' game.  Wilcox is a mediocre but athletic power forward by NBA standards.

  Put two athletes who can score on the court with Rondo, and and he will become the consistently aggressive player people have been clamoring for him to be for years.  Add a great rebounder/defender and your cooking IMO.  

Right now he is the road runner playing in quick sand.  The guy is absolutely special in the open court. When he gets into the open court consistently you can almost see his confidence rise and then he start hitting his fair share of perimeter shots. 

   

[GreenEnvy]

You can't compare the two. Pierce was a legit star out of college, a lottery pick, and made an impact immediately. He acted up periodically, but he always brought his A-game. I questions some of his antics, but never his heart. He literally has no weaknesses in his game. He can score from anywhere, pass, playmake, rebound, defend, lead, etc.

Rondo on the other hand, I find myself wondering more and more whether he even cares for long stretches and even entire games. I honestly think I've had enough of him. He hasn't made the growth I was expecting, more so off the court and on it. We not might get equal value for him, but give me Steve Nash (who fixes the offense and doesn't take away that much on defense) and then the cap space. One final push with KG and Ray and then see what magic DA can work up this summer.

This myth that PP didnt share the ball before ray and kg got here is ridiculous. Same with the myth that he didnt defend, he defended quite consistently and quite well for O'brien and Doc.

  Almost as ridiculous as the myth that Rondo tries to pad his assist totals, or that he lets his man get by him on purpose in order to try and poke the ball loose from behind.

I don't know if you are being facetious or not but Rondo totally pads his assist numbers. How many times have we seen Rondo all alone and pass back to a trailer for an assist instead of an easy layup? The past few games he's out to prove something (don't know what) and he's hoisting up shots, even if they are poorly selected.

As for his atrocious matador defense, I don't know what he is trying to accomplish. He has the tools to be a great defender, and once was, but lately he has be awful.

[Fafnir]

Rondo passing to a trailing player for a dunk when he has an uncontested lay up isn't something that I think anyone should really worry about.

So far I have yet to see him do it in a situation where it could or has cost us points.

[CelticsFanNC]

  Part of the reason he is perceived to not care for stretches of games is because for long stretches of games we walk the ball up the court and watch Ray run around screens.  When the starting five is on the court together that is how we play for the most part.   That's not the entire reason but it contributes a lot to it.  Playing with Pierce, JO, Allen and KG for long stretches puts Rondo to sleep at times I think.  

   It is very much like Paul Pierce these past few games looking like he is playing at half speed and disappearing when we do get into the open court.

  This is the identity crises going on with the Celtics right now.  The older more established but clearly past their prime veterans for the most part can only play half court basketball.   The rest of the team plays a whole lot better in the open court.  


 Rondo looks totally engaged just as soon as a couple of pairs of young legs out on the court with him, we cause turnovers, get to loose balls, get rebounds and get into the open court.  It stops in the 4th quarter because he's back on the court with the starters.

[BballTim]

This myth that PP didnt share the ball before ray and kg got here is ridiculous. Same with the myth that he didnt defend, he defended quite consistently and quite well for O'brien and Doc.

  Almost as ridiculous as the myth that Rondo tries to pad his assist totals, or that he lets his man get by him on purpose in order to try and poke the ball loose from behind.

I don't know if you are being facetious or not but Rondo totally pads his assist numbers. How many times have we seen Rondo all alone and pass back to a trailer for an assist instead of an easy layup? The past few games he's out to prove something (don't know what) and he's hoisting up shots, even if they are poorly selected.

As for his atrocious matador defense, I don't know what he is trying to accomplish. He has the tools to be a great defender, and once was, but lately he has be awful.

  First of all, plenty of players pass the ball on breaks. Traditionally when point guards do it it's referred to as rewarding players for running with you, when Rondo does it people have to come up with nonsense like your post. Myth.

  Secondly, this isn't Rondo trying to prove something, it's what Doc wants. If you think that Rondo's going to post up possession after possession when Doc wants him doing something else without Doc taking a time out or yanking him from the game you're kidding your self.

  Lastly, there's been nothing wrong with Rondo's defense lately, and the numbers back that up. How many recent games can you name where we were getting killed by opposing point guards?

[GreenEnvy]

Rondo passing to a trailing player for a dunk when he has an uncontested lay up isn't something that I think anyone should really worry about.

So far I have yet to see him do it in a situation where it could or has cost us points.

We shouldn't worry about it because it defies your theory that he doesn't pad his numbers? He pads his numbers in more ways than that, but that is the glaring example. He will never be an elite scorer, so he attempts to lead the league in APG. I have no real problem with it considering how poor of a shooter he is, but to say he doesn't purposely try to get assists is simply a lie.

[Fafnir]

Rondo passing to a trailing player for a dunk when he has an uncontested lay up isn't something that I think anyone should really worry about.

So far I have yet to see him do it in a situation where it could or has cost us points.

We shouldn't worry about it because it defies your theory that he doesn't pad his numbers? He pads his numbers in more ways than that, but that is the glaring example. He will never be an elite scorer, so he attempts to lead the league in APG. I have no real problem with it considering how poor of a shooter he is, but to say he doesn't purposely try to get assists is simply a lie.

1. You're talking to the wrong person. Hi I'm Fafnir, as BBallTim and the rest of this thread's posters can attest I'm not them.

2. What does his shooting have to do with a fast break where either he or another player is dunking/laying the ball in? I guess I'm wondering if you think he passes up lay ups in other situations? Because I haven't seen that lately though early in his career he overpassed (ala KG).