Another Rondo triple-double

[ms.ball]

Why is it always assumed that people "hate" a player if they think the Celtics might be better off trading said player?

I don't think it becuz of that. But when a player has a triple double and the team gets the win and all you can focus on is his flaws and what he didn't do. I would say you just dont like the player. Also when the team loses, he's the only one who gets the blame.

So, that win you speak of could have quite easily been a loss.....against a Rose-less Bulls.

That shouldnt happen, especially after the Raptors loss.

The elder statesmen really knuckled down defensively in this game, especially KG, who was missing front court mates JO and BB.

I really liked his agressiveness though.  It was refreshing to see after his fairly timid play lately.  

Key words being, could have been a loss. It's funny to me cuz just a week ago the issue with him was ball movement, attacking the rim, the offense is better without him, blah blah blah. He goes out gets other players involved with easy shots. He was attacking and be aggressive and scored. He rebounded. Now its he didn't play and defense! I'm sorry, that's laughable.

[Celtics4ever]

A few plays??

His inability to fight through screens, or go under screens for that matter, caused us massive problems on D.

All I can say is I am glad your not a coach or GM.   Rondo was fantastic yesterday and your nit picking him, bud.  Relax, we won.  Are you related to Avery Bradley?

[RJ87]

It took CJ Watson 23 shots to score 22 pts? I'll take that defensively.

There's really not much to complain about: 10 of 13 from the free throw line (including 4 to end the game), he hit the elbow jumper, and got out in transition.

Let the man have a day - he earned it. Hate him on tomorrow.

[Capricious]

Everytime someone hates on Rajon's defense they never come up with a player whos better defensively.

Who are these magical starting point guards who play lockdown D and have some semblance of an offensive game?

[greenpride32]

I'm trying to think of how many times Van Gundy called out Rondo for a bad gamble and leaving a guy wide open for a shot.  And I can't stand VG but he's right in these instances.

Rondo is not a lock down defender.  That's what you call someoe who can guard one on one very effectively.  He's just very good at anticipating passes and the occsasional reach in steal.  When he gambles you either have a wide open shot or a direct lane to the hoop; a lock down defender does not just give those the opposing player.

[BballTim]

I'm trying to think of how many times Van Gundy called out Rondo for a bad gamble and leaving a guy wide open for a shot.  And I can't stand VG but he's right in these instances.

Rondo is not a lock down defender.  That's what you call someoe who can guard one on one very effectively.  He's just very good at anticipating passes and the occsasional reach in steal.  When he gambles you either have a wide open shot or a direct lane to the hoop; a lock down defender does not just give those the opposing player.

  I heard him say it at least once. But, for reference, which starting point guards do you consider to be lock down defenders?

[greenpride32]

  I heard him say it at least once. But, for reference, which starting point guards do you consider to be lock down defenders?

Better PG defenders in the league today would be Conely and Holiday.  Kidd was good but he's lost a step or two.  Bradley is very good, but it's too bad he's below average at everything else. 

Guys like Rondo and CP3 get recognition for all defensive team because of steals and rebounds, but they aren't necessarily good at stopping their guy from scoring.  It's like calling Carmelo Anthony a top 5 player in the league because he's a top 5 scorer. 

[2short]

Defensively Rondo pressures his man, he forces him into teammates then shadows his man to try and get steals on passes/kick outs.  He is good, can he be better yes.
A few years ago on here when everyone was tony allen gaga the question was posed who was the celtics best defender.  For reasons like above I picked Paul Pierce.  Pierce is not a lock down defender, he actually isn't as good 1 on 1 as rondo but like rondo he funnels his man into the team defense.
Bradley plays amazing man on d, some of the best in nba but he still doesn't do as much as rondo in regards to lanes and funneling his man.  Too many people see one aspect (or what they want to see).
I don't think the position of pg can have a lockdown defender against a good ball handling pg (not eddie house type ).  In the entire nba I'd say best defensive pg are rondo and chris paul (no order).  Were alvin robertson, jason kidd and gary payton lockdown defenders?  Those are the 3 best defensive point guards I can think of in recent memory, throw jordan in there, was he a lockdown defender on an opposing pg? He guarded them enough.
by the way we now realize that rondo is responsible for the greek economy going down, global warming and united states unemployment; i did just figure out that he stole my junior high girlfriend away as well

[Greenbean]

Defensively Rondo pressures his man, he forces him into teammates then shadows his man to try and get steals on passes/kick outs.  He is good, can he be better yes.
A few years ago on here when everyone was tony allen gaga the question was posed who was the celtics best defender.  For reasons like above I picked Paul Pierce.  Pierce is not a lock down defender, he actually isn't as good 1 on 1 as rondo but like rondo he funnels his man into the team defense.
Bradley plays amazing man on d, some of the best in nba but he still doesn't do as much as rondo in regards to lanes and funneling his man.  Too many people see one aspect (or what they want to see).
I don't think the position of pg can have a lockdown defender against a good ball handling pg (not eddie house type ).  In the entire nba I'd say best defensive pg are rondo and chris paul (no order).  Were alvin robertson, jason kidd and gary payton lockdown defenders?  Those are the 3 best defensive point guards I can think of in recent memory, throw jordan in there, was he a lockdown defender on an opposing pg? He guarded them enough.
by the way we now realize that rondo is responsible for the greek economy going down, global warming and united states unemployment; i did just figure out that he stole my junior high girlfriend away as well

Your interpretation of funneling his man can also be viewed as letting his man go by him.

I dont know any defensive strategy that calls for a pg to let a man get behind him, especially in the foul line area where ROndo frequently goes for his back taps.

You should always keep yourself between your man and the basket so you do not take yourself out of the play.

Also, some of his gambles come AS the help defender. He will cheat off of his man to go for a steal and leave the guy wide open.

As far as I am concerned, man to man defense is all about providing resistance. You need to make it difficult for a guy to beat you. Obviously in the NBA, pg's are going to be able to penetrate, but if you can provide enough resistance, his passing lanes will be cut off and he will have trouble initiating the offense.


Too often, Rondo is left out of position to make a play and that is when he gets in trouble. The Celtics are a really good rotation team but it is not because Rondo is steering his man into defensive traps.

[LooseCannon]

Guys like Rondo and CP3 get recognition for all defensive team because of steals and rebounds, but they aren't necessarily good at stopping their guy from scoring.

I actually think they are good at stopping their guy from scoring (or at least good at stopping their guy from scoring efficiently).  Is it bad that CJ Watson scored 22 points or is it a good thing that he shot 8 of 23 to get to those 22 points?

Red's Army had a post a couple of weeks ago pointing out that, as awesome as Bradley's defense looks, Rondo's is still better statistically (except in isolations).  I don't know how much the numbers have shifted due to the past several games and I don't know how Rondo compares to other point guards in the league, but I suspect that advanced metrics would suggest that Rondo should be in the conversation about who is the best defensive point guard.

[OttawaCeltic]

Rondo pads his stats...Totally concentrated on rebounding when he new he was close. Still good, but I'd rather him just concentrate on getting as many assists and points as possible.

wow
so you are saying in the 4th quarter when every EVERY rebound counted, Rondo was padding his stats for a ricky davis triple double
was he stealing rebounds from the bigs?
WOW

LOL, he was stealing rebounds from bigs. Didn't you see his 8-10 rebounds? He was yelling @ the bigs to let him get the ball, especially at KG(happened on the last and the 8th) I was watching Rondo for the whole last 5min of the game and sheesh, the guy of the first quote above meh is 101% correct!

[Yogi]

Yeah Rondo was stealing rebounds from bigs.  Noah, Boozer, Gibson...

[2short]

Defensively Rondo pressures his man, he forces him into teammates then shadows his man to try and get steals on passes/kick outs.  He is good, can he be better yes.
A few years ago on here when everyone was tony allen gaga the question was posed who was the celtics best defender.  For reasons like above I picked Paul Pierce.  Pierce is not a lock down defender, he actually isn't as good 1 on 1 as rondo but like rondo he funnels his man into the team defense.
Bradley plays amazing man on d, some of the best in nba but he still doesn't do as much as rondo in regards to lanes and funneling his man.  Too many people see one aspect (or what they want to see).
I don't think the position of pg can have a lockdown defender against a good ball handling pg (not eddie house type ).  In the entire nba I'd say best defensive pg are rondo and chris paul (no order).  Were alvin robertson, jason kidd and gary payton lockdown defenders?  Those are the 3 best defensive point guards I can think of in recent memory, throw jordan in there, was he a lockdown defender on an opposing pg? He guarded them enough.
by the way we now realize that rondo is responsible for the greek economy going down, global warming and united states unemployment; i did just figure out that he stole my junior high girlfriend away as well

Your interpretation of funneling his man can also be viewed as letting his man go by him.

I dont know any defensive strategy that calls for a pg to let a man get behind him, especially in the foul line area where ROndo frequently goes for his back taps.

You should always keep yourself between your man and the basket so you do not take yourself out of the play.

Also, some of his gambles come AS the help defender. He will cheat off of his man to go for a steal and leave the guy wide open.

As far as I am concerned, man to man defense is all about providing resistance. You need to make it difficult for a guy to beat you. Obviously in the NBA, pg's are going to be able to penetrate, but if you can provide enough resistance, his passing lanes will be cut off and he will have trouble initiating the offense.


Too often, Rondo is left out of position to make a play and that is when he gets in trouble. The Celtics are a really good rotation team but it is not because Rondo is steering his man into defensive traps.

yes basic defense is to stay in front of your man, at this level I don't see many/any guys that can do it, way too many fast/good ball handlers at nearly every posistion, contain the man to me is what everyone is trying to do
he does gamble as help defender, agreed, this was how bird got most of his steals as well

[BballTim]

  I heard him say it at least once. But, for reference, which starting point guards do you consider to be lock down defenders?

Better PG defenders in the league today would be Conely and Holiday.  Kidd was good but he's lost a step or two.  Bradley is very good, but it's too bad he's below average at everything else. 

Guys like Rondo and CP3 get recognition for all defensive team because of steals and rebounds, but they aren't necessarily good at stopping their guy from scoring.  It's like calling Carmelo Anthony a top 5 player in the league because he's a top 5 scorer. 

  Rondo does as well at stopping his man from scoring as Conley and Holiday do. Check the synergy sports numbers. Rondo does other things well also, but he's still generally among the best every year at stopping his man from scoring. Holiday and Conley are having good years. Last year Rose was. The year before CP3 probably was. But Rondo's up there every year.