Is Paul Pierce the modern day Dave Cowens?

[Bingbangbarros]

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Good points re McHale being an offensive and defensive load "bingbangbarros", that's on the money. He just didn't have that infectious, dominating personality that most of the true legendary players have.   

True. But that might be an overrated quality/attribute. There have been plenty of dominant personality stars who haven't won anything. I think McHale is comparible to Duncan personality wise and Duncan has 3 or 4 rings. Since it was Bird's team we probably did not see that side of McHale. He could have had a ridiculous career on another team and I wouldn't hold that against him.

Pierce had the leader mentality but in my opinion he was not the greatest leader throught his career. Walker was actually the leader of the team in the 2000's although Pierce did carry them. Pierce did not give 100% effort at all times. He did not always hustle back on defense. His clutchness is very overrated as he has missed a number of clutch free-throws in his career and has turned the ball over or missed the last shot countless times. He actually scares me in the clutch

[erisred]

I'm sure I underraate cousy. I never put him in that top list of Celtic greats. Maybe.i should do more research

somebody make the argument for Cousy for me... I dont.see how he can be rated above pierce

Cousy basically made the point guard position what it is today. He  invented many of the flashy passes like behind the back and the like. He had crazy handles which pretty much became a requirement to play the point after him. Besides revolutionizing that position, he racked up assists like crazy.

Cousy was Rondo, Nash and Kidd all rolled up in one player before any of those three were born. Cousy had incredible peripheral vision and would regularly make passes that were...frankly impossible. He made an entire generation of players...and fans...truly believe he had eyes in the back on his head. Cousy may not have been *as* important to the Celtics as Russell, but he was darn close and I'd lay you odds the C's would have come up short of a championship more than one season with out Bob Cousy running the offense.

You what to compare Dave Cowens to someone? Compare him KG. No, Larry Bird.  Okay, a cross between KG and Bird. Four inches shorter than KG, Cowens looked like a midget when he went up against guys like Jabbar, but he was fearless and he was good. Cowens battled the best centers of his time to a draw, game after game, series after series through will and effort and never giving an inch. Cowens had the hustle, fire and guts of Larry Bird, but he didn't have Bird's creativity or 3pt shot (didn't exist yet anyway). What Dave could do was hit an 18 - 20 foot shot on centers who wouldn't close on him, and drive  to the bucket on those that did. He was a maniac on defense, even more so than KG. He had long, long legs and even longer arms, and he could jump! The joke was "white men can't jump...except for Dave Cowens."

Now, about Pierce...he is a Celtics great, but to me it's...

1. Russell (The most important Celtics. Maybe the most athletic big man of all time...oh, and maybe the smartest, too!)
2. Bird  (The most talented, hardest working, and most stubborn SOB to ever wear green.)
3. Havlicek (If you never saw Hondo, you just don't know smooth. He was Ray Allen and Paul Pierce combined. Remember, there was no 3pt shot during his era, and most of his 26,000+ points came from what is now 3pt territory.)
4. Cowens (Battled every play, ever second, never gave an inch and won while not being anywhere near as talented as the rest of the top 10.)
5. Cousy (If Russell was the master of the blocked shot, Cousy was the doctor of the pass.)
6. Pierce (Just a great all around player, smooth like Havlicek and tough like Cowens and Bird.)
7. McHale (Arms and legs so long he looked deformed. Never looked agile, but was always where he needed to be when he needed to be there...always!)
8. KG (Only this low because he has only been a C for a few years and we never had his absolute best.)
9. Sam Jones (Took over from Cousy and keep the C's break running with no drop off.)
10. Heinsohn (Not so much as a player, but combined player, coach and commentator, Tommy is as much THE Celtics as Russell or Red.

[CelticG1]

I'm sure I underraate cousy. I never put him in that top list of Celtic greats. Maybe.i should do more research

somebody make the argument for Cousy for me... I dont.see how he can be rated above pierce

Cousy basically made the point guard position what it is today. He  invented many of the flashy passes like behind the back and the like. He had crazy handles which pretty much became a requirement to play the point after him. Besides revolutionizing that position, he racked up assists like crazy.

cousy had crazy assists at a time when the were calculated if the person dribbled (at least) then it was not counted, I forget the exact way they use to credit assists
AND cousy could go for 50 pts

He just doesn't seem like a dominant player to me. Maybe he was though. The whole "revolutionizing" the position argument never really holds much weight with me. I don't see why you get bonus  points for that.

I'd say Russel, Bird, Havlicek Pierce and probably others were more dominant than Cousy.

I actually just checked out his stats pretty impressed with the PPG more than i thought

What was up with the FG% not cracking 40%  at all in his career? Was that a league wide thing? Woe just putrid

[nickagneta]

Some things I saw said in this thread that i want cleared up for the record:

- No valid argument can be made that Pierce is more talented than Larry. None. Zero. He might be a tad more athletic but Larry was loaded with so much basketball talent than Pierce. His basketball vision, IQ, shooting, and rebounding abilities far outweigh Pierce's in every way. And Bird's game was so much mature than Pierce's from the outset that he effected the game in more ways than Pierce could until Pierce was in the league a good 6-7 years.

- Cousy's ability to change the game absolutely makes him one of the all-time greats ever. Without Cousy there is no Tiny or Larry or Magic or Stockton or Nash or Kidd or Paul or Rondo. Cousy brought a unique ability to handle the ball and make passes that until that point were unseen before. As what Elgin Baylor was to Dr J, MJ, Dominique, Kobe and LeBron, Cousy was to those aforementioned players. Cousy, Chamberlain, Baylor, and MJ where basketball changing players that forever moved the game to a different more modern aspect of how the game is played. For that reason, Cousy is easily a top 4 Celtic of all-time.

- There is NO WAY KG is a better all-time Celtic than Dave Cowens. Cowens as a Celtic had 10 years and averaged 18 PPG, 13.5 RPG, 1 BPG 1 SPG and defended the center position against players regularly 3-4 inches and 20-40 pounds bigger than him. In KG's 5 years as a Celtics he is averaging about 15PPG, 8 RPG, 1 BPG and 1 SPG while guarding men smaller than him as he plays PF. KG meant a lot to this team but he is not in the same class as being a better all-time great than Cowens.

[Emmette Bryant]

Dave Cowens had a tough act to follow:  Bill Russell.
The thing that I remember about Cowens was that he was this furious defender with a crazed look on his face.  I would say that the Celtic who is the closest to a modern day Cowens is Kevin Garnett.

Disclaimer:  Dave Cowens is my all time favorite Celtic.

[BballTim]

What I mean by this is that while a valid argument could be made that McHale had more talented than KG and Pierce is more talented than Bird, neither Pierce nor McHale have that outwardly and overwhelming "force of personality" on the court that infects everyone, even players of the opposing team.

  I don't know that there's a really valid argument that Pierce is more talented than Bird.

[Inside-Out]

Some things I saw said in this thread that i want cleared up for the record:

- No valid argument can be made that Pierce is more talented than Larry. None. Zero. He might be a tad more athletic but Larry was loaded with so much basketball talent than Pierce. His basketball vision, IQ, shooting, and rebounding abilities far outweigh Pierce's in every way. And Bird's game was so much mature than Pierce's from the outset that he effected the game in more ways than Pierce could until Pierce was in the league a good 6-7 years.

- Cousy's ability to change the game absolutely makes him one of the all-time greats ever. Without Cousy there is no Tiny or Larry or Magic or Stockton or Nash or Kidd or Paul or Rondo. Cousy brought a unique ability to handle the ball and make passes that until that point were unseen before. As what Elgin Baylor was to Dr J, MJ, Dominique, Kobe and LeBron, Cousy was to those aforementioned players. Cousy, Chamberlain, Baylor, and MJ where basketball changing players that forever moved the game to a different more modern aspect of how the game is played. For that reason, Cousy is easily a top 4 Celtic of all-time.

- There is NO WAY KG is a better all-time Celtic than Dave Cowens. Cowens as a Celtic had 10 years and averaged 18 PPG, 13.5 RPG, 1 BPG 1 SPG and defended the center position against players regularly 3-4 inches and 20-40 pounds bigger than him. In KG's 5 years as a Celtics he is averaging about 15PPG, 8 RPG, 1 BPG and 1 SPG while guarding men smaller than him as he plays PF. KG meant a lot to this team but he is not in the same class as being a better all-time great than Cowens.

TP for an increasingly rare sense of history around here (and agree 100% on all points).

The lack of knowledge of even Celtics history is a bit surprising.  I mentioned the other day in another thread that a starting SG on a title team named Gerald Henderson was traded for a draft pick, and some smartypants wondered when the Bobcats were any good.   

[BASS_THUMPER]

what test do u take to find out someones basketball IQ?

had to ask cuz i read somwhere bird iq was higher than pauls..in so many words..

[Celtics18]

I've never liked comparisons between past players and current players.  They are simply to difficult to assess accurately.

As far as where, Paul Pierce fits among his generation, I would say he's easily in the top ten, possibly top five after O'Neal, Bryant, Duncan, Garnett.  I would put him in a virtual tie with Nowitzki, both beating out Steve Nash by virtue of winning a title.  Players like Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady, and Allen Iverson drop below these guys because they flamed out too quickly.  

I loved the front page article on Paul Pierce; Well stated piece about our Captain.  One of the more interesting things to me about his career path is that he seemed to be a much more polarizing figure and player earlier in his career.  As he's aged, the opinion of him seems to be much more focused on what a cerebral, well rounded, and tough player he's turned out to be.

Celtics fans love us some Paul Pierce.  As well we should.  That guy is the Truth.