Is Paul Pierce the modern day Dave Cowens?

[dysgenic]

I never saw Cowens play, but of all the old time Celtics he seems to be the most polarizing.  If you ask who the most underrated Celtic is, many will vociferously point to Cowens.  Others claim he is overrated, much to the amazement and anger of the 'he is underrated' crowd.  It seems to me that there is more disagreement over Cowens than almost any other Celtic.

Which brings us to Pierce.  Taking a look at some of the online comments responding to various articles recently written about him becoming the Celtics 2nd alltime leading scorer, it becomes apparent that he is a very polarizing figure in his own right.  Some seem to absolutely hate the guy and others are almost rabid in their support of him.  On this forum, the opinions vary widely and it always surprises me how fired up people seem to get over this guy.

For myself, I'm in the 'I love Paul Pierce' camp and I believe he is more than a hall of a famer, even a top 5 Celtic.  I think of him as a gamer, one of the most mentally tough players in any sport that I've ever seen.  A guy I would go to war with.  I guy you can win with, a guy that has overcome personal and professional disappointment to become one of the best players I've ever seen.  I love the way he can look so bad one moment and win the game the next.  I love how certain aspects of his game have continually improved over time (passing and free throw shooting come to mind), but I loved his game even before it improved.

What I would like to know is, what do others think of him and why?
Thanks.

[Roy H.]

If we're talking about whether somebody is overrated or underrated, we need to know where they're being "rated" in the first place.  Recently, the CelticsBlog community voted, and Pierce came in fourth, while Cowens was seventh. 

To me, that seems pretty appropriate.  I'd put Pierce behind Russell, Bird, and Havlicek for sure.  After that, things get interesting.  I'd have him behind Cousy, and in a virtual tie with McHale.

I love Pierce.  I think a lot of fans criticized him when he alluded to making a trade demand, and that's understandable.  However, he was excellent early in his career, and he has been a top-tier player the past several years.  For his era, there are less than a handful of wing players that you can say were definitely better.

[dysgenic]

Outside of Boston I don't think he is nearly as highly rated as you have him.  Like I said, take a look at some of the comments in recent national articles and you might be shocked at what you find.  But truthfully, I don't think most on this forum have him as high as you do. (edit to add: I stand corrected I just saw that pole)
I never saw Havlicek play, unfortunately.  I'm in my late 30s.  In my era I've got it like this:

1. Bird
2. Pierce
3. DJ
4. Parish
5. McHale
6. KG

[nickagneta]

My top Celtics of all time are

1 Russell
2 Bird
3 Havlicek
4 Cousy
5 -7 (tie) Pierce, McHale, Cowens
8 Parish
9 Heisohn
10 Sam Jones

The Pierce, McHale, Cowens trio are just so hard to definitively place in any order. McHale probably had the most talent and Cowens the least. Pierce probably had the longest healthy career and McHale the least. But in their absolute primes. Cowens was probably the most important and indispensable player to his team and is the only one to win an MVP. So they all tie at the 5 spot.

[CelticG1]

I'm sure I underraate cousy. I never put him in that top list of Celtic greats. Maybe.i should do more research

somebody make the argument for Cousy for me... I dont.see how he can be rated above pierce

[2short]

Pierce reminds me a lot of Bird, as he has aged his game has changed and pierce at least has gotten smarter at offense and worked harder at defense.  Cowens was easily one of the hardest working celtics ever, you can argue all day between russell, hondo and cowers.  The fire cowens displayed wow, Bird, KG and Rondo are the ones I can think of quickly and rondo doesn't show it every night.  Cowens 2nd best rebounder ever on C's? Man was 6'9" and could outrun a lot of sf and out rebound  many of the 7' centers of his day.
I don't feel PP is polarizing at this point, after the indy playoff series I was so ripped at him I would have traded him away.  Since then he's been PERFECT.  I think a lot of the posters here that were "unhappy" are just looking for instant championships, trade anyone basic non celtic philosophy
overrated celtics, kc jones, cedric maxwell, antoine walker

[Bingbangbarros]

I think people definitely underrated McHale. How many go to guys are there who regularly shoot over 55% yearly, (over 60% twice in his career) and play outstanding defense. He was automatic. He was also all-defensive for 8 years of his career. He basically dominated on offense and defense. You can't say that about Pierce or Cowens. I admittedly did not see Cowens play, other than his highlights, books, and stats that I've researched in my lifetime. He was obviously great in his era but McHale was unstoppable.

Pierce had some bad years in my opinion. Yes he had to carry the team for a majority of his career but that is no excuse for his bad shot selection, poor shooting and bad habits. I honestly think he stopped playing defense for a few years. I am a Pierce fan but its really not close in my opinion.

[ianboyextreme]

I have loved Paul Pierce since i became a C's fan in the 04'-05' season. His gambit of silky smooth moves are arguably the best in the game. He has never been a favorite of ESPN or most NBA fans because he is not flashy in any way. He doesnt jump high and he doesnt throw down highlights reel dunks but he does literally everything well on the basketball court and scores in and old school way. For me, he is a top 5 celtic all time behind Havlicek and right ahead of Cousy because he has been the leader of this franchise for 14 seasons now.

[SHAQATTACK]

Cowens and Pierce have an important trait in common , both share a never give up , never quit attitude and both play/ed taller opponents and yet come out the winners night after night.

Cowens was the bravest player I ever saw . PP is a close second.

[ianboyextreme]

I'm sure I underraate cousy. I never put him in that top list of Celtic greats. Maybe.i should do more research

somebody make the argument for Cousy for me... I dont.see how he can be rated above pierce

Cousy basically made the point guard position what it is today. He  invented many of the flashy passes like behind the back and the like. He had crazy handles which pretty much became a requirement to play the point after him. Besides revolutionizing that position, he racked up assists like crazy.

[ScoobyDoo]

For me Bird and KG are kindred spirits. Pierce is more like a McHale to me.

What I mean by this is that while a valid argument could be made that McHale had more talented than KG and Pierce is more talented than Bird, neither Pierce nor McHale have that outwardly and overwhelming "force of personality" on the court that infects everyone, even players of the opposing team.

To me, this is a separating factor for Bird and KG, particularly when talking about all these players in their prime.

Their personalities were / are as dominating as their games.

It's like comparing Jason Kidd to Magic - Magic's personality jsut infected every player on the court, on both sides. His teammates thought anything was possible and opposing teams just wanted to crush him, Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline. him down, beat "Magic".

The same can be said of Bird vs Pierce, KG vs McHale, Shaq vs Ewing, Jordan vs...vs...

It's that overwhelming talent "combined" with overwhelming personality and charisma. Pierce has the former in boatloads but lacks the latter at the level of Bird.

My list:

Russell
Bird
Havlicek
Cousy
Pierce / Mchale
KG*
Cowens

* I believe KG would be #2 or #3 if he had worn a Celtics Jersey his entire career.  

[2short]

I'm sure I underraate cousy. I never put him in that top list of Celtic greats. Maybe.i should do more research

somebody make the argument for Cousy for me... I dont.see how he can be rated above pierce

Cousy basically made the point guard position what it is today. He  invented many of the flashy passes like behind the back and the like. He had crazy handles which pretty much became a requirement to play the point after him. Besides revolutionizing that position, he racked up assists like crazy.

cousy had crazy assists at a time when the were calculated if the person dribbled (at least) then it was not counted, I forget the exact way they use to credit assists
AND cousy could go for 50 pts

[ScoobyDoo]

Good points re McHale being an offensive and defensive load "bingbangbarros", that's on the money. He just didn't have that infectious, dominating personality that most of the true legendary players have.   

[GreenFaith1819]

I was not that familiar with Dave Cowens until I started reading up on him for CelticsBlog's Historical Drafts.

I cannot imagine him being 6'9" and going up against Kareem in his prime, Nate Thurmond, Wilt, Walton, and Wes Unseld.

TOUGH. He bridged the gap from Russell to the 80's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqmzOJ7vKzM&feature=related

[Celtics4ever]

Cowens was a total effort guy.  I think the game comes easier to PP.  I think Cowens was one of the toughest to ever lace them up for us.  Cowens was a far cry meaner than PP physically.   PP is a ruthless cut-throat scorer but Cowens would knock you silly if you looked at him cross.