Author Topic: so...safe to say Welker dropped the superbowl championship?  (Read 50429 times)

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Re: so...safe to say Welker dropped the superbowl championship?
« Reply #105 on: February 06, 2012, 02:28:53 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Again, once Gronk headed in the wrong direction Tom should've been smarter and put the ball away. But I was surprised to see that not talked about at all.
Put the ball away? Hernandez (I think) was wide open on the right wing in first down territory. Toss him the ball and it's a new set of downs at NY's 45.

Then let's see whether Manning can go the length of the field for a TD in 1 minute with 1 TO left.
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Re: so...safe to say Welker dropped the superbowl championship?
« Reply #106 on: February 06, 2012, 02:35:07 PM »

Offline StartOrien

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Again, once Gronk headed in the wrong direction Tom should've been smarter and put the ball away. But I was surprised to see that not talked about at all.
Put the ball away? Hernandez (I think) was wide open on the right wing in first down territory. Toss him the ball and it's a new set of downs at NY's 45.

Then let's see whether Manning can go the length of the field for a TD in 1 minute with 1 TO left.

I didn't notice one way or the other about people being open, I was more trying to emphasize that I thought Brady made a poor decision but Gronk could've made a significantly better situation for them.

Re: so...safe to say Welker dropped the superbowl championship?
« Reply #107 on: February 06, 2012, 02:43:45 PM »

Offline elcotte

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It was a bad pass to Welker...Brady cannot make those soft, touch passes.

And Welker saw it, got ready for it, got his hands on it, dropped it, and didn't want to look at the world afterwards. 

Contributory negligence report

Welker ..90%

Brady...10%

Giants defense...0%

the elements ...0%

Welker contorted his body to get his hands on it which was a great play by him. The throw was bad. He was wide open. Brady missed him.

Re: so...safe to say Welker dropped the superbowl championship?
« Reply #108 on: February 06, 2012, 02:44:20 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Again, once Gronk headed in the wrong direction Tom should've been smarter and put the ball away. But I was surprised to see that not talked about at all.
Put the ball away? Hernandez (I think) was wide open on the right wing in first down territory. Toss him the ball and it's a new set of downs at NY's 45.

Then let's see whether Manning can go the length of the field for a TD in 1 minute with 1 TO left.
What SO is trying to say is that it is common receiver knowledge that when the quarterback is force from the pocket and you have run your route, you should then re-route yourself to the same side of the field your QB is rolling to. Brady was forced to his right on that play and Gronk continued to fade to the left corner of the field. The hardest pass a QB can make is a deep pass across the field. The pass goes laterally as far as vertically and allows for defenders moving vertically to catch up and defend the pass easier.

That said it was a poor throw and decision to throw by Brady. Tuck it and run. Or throw it out of bounds. Or go to the next progression and see if that receiver is open. Throwing that ball to Gronk was a mistake.

Re: so...safe to say Welker dropped the superbowl championship?
« Reply #109 on: February 06, 2012, 02:46:58 PM »

Offline Eja117

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It was a bad pass to Welker...Brady cannot make those soft, touch passes.

And Welker saw it, got ready for it, got his hands on it, dropped it, and didn't want to look at the world afterwards. 

Contributory negligence report

Welker ..90%

Brady...10%

Giants defense...0%

the elements ...0%

Welker contorted his body to get his hands on it which was a great play by him. The throw was bad. He was wide open. Brady missed him.
There are many many many high school players that can and have made that catch, let alone Walker. Like Collinsworth said (former NFL WR) Welker makes that catch 100 times out of 100.

Re: so...safe to say Welker dropped the superbowl championship?
« Reply #110 on: February 06, 2012, 02:48:55 PM »

Offline Eja117

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Again, once Gronk headed in the wrong direction Tom should've been smarter and put the ball away. But I was surprised to see that not talked about at all.
Put the ball away? Hernandez (I think) was wide open on the right wing in first down territory. Toss him the ball and it's a new set of downs at NY's 45.

Then let's see whether Manning can go the length of the field for a TD in 1 minute with 1 TO left.
I looked and thought maybe I saw Deion Branch reasonably open. It's not clear to me when the DB broke off. Once Tom stops and winds up to throw deep I'm sure if the DB broke off appearing to leave a guy open or if the guy really was open. Maybe Tom should have run with it

Re: so...safe to say Welker dropped the superbowl championship?
« Reply #111 on: February 06, 2012, 03:00:19 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Again, once Gronk headed in the wrong direction Tom should've been smarter and put the ball away. But I was surprised to see that not talked about at all.
Put the ball away? Hernandez (I think) was wide open on the right wing in first down territory. Toss him the ball and it's a new set of downs at NY's 45.

Then let's see whether Manning can go the length of the field for a TD in 1 minute with 1 TO left.
I looked and thought maybe I saw Deion Branch reasonably open. It's not clear to me when the DB broke off. Once Tom stops and winds up to throw deep I'm sure if the DB broke off appearing to leave a guy open or if the guy really was open. Maybe Tom should have run with it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Di-p-bOm9SE

If you freeze the tape at 0:10 - 0:12, you'll see a receiver open in the bottom of the screen a yard beyond the first down line (you're right that it's Branch and not Hernandez).

I ran it a couple of times in slow motion, and at the time that Brady scrambles out, there safety isn't anywhere within 10 feet of Branch, and the corner has already dropped into coverage. I may be misjudging the situation, but to me that's not only an easy first down, but also a pile of YAC.

Brady, on the other hand, is so locked down on Gronk down the field it's painful to watch.
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Re: so...safe to say Welker dropped the superbowl championship?
« Reply #112 on: February 06, 2012, 03:12:05 PM »

Offline BballTim

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It was a bad pass to Welker...Brady cannot make those soft, touch passes.

And Welker saw it, got ready for it, got his hands on it, dropped it, and didn't want to look at the world afterwards. 

Contributory negligence report

Welker ..90%

Brady...10%

Giants defense...0%

the elements ...0%

Welker contorted his body to get his hands on it which was a great play by him. The throw was bad. He was wide open. Brady missed him.
There are many many many high school players that can and have made that catch, let alone Walker. Like Collinsworth said (former NFL WR) Welker makes that catch 100 times out of 100.

  I couldn't believe that comment. I don't think that there have been too many (if any) receivers that I've seen that make that catch a majority of the time. At least not since they outlawed stick-em. It was a bad pass, plain and simple.

Re: so...safe to say Welker dropped the superbowl championship?
« Reply #113 on: February 06, 2012, 03:14:55 PM »

Offline Eja117

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Again, once Gronk headed in the wrong direction Tom should've been smarter and put the ball away. But I was surprised to see that not talked about at all.
Put the ball away? Hernandez (I think) was wide open on the right wing in first down territory. Toss him the ball and it's a new set of downs at NY's 45.

Then let's see whether Manning can go the length of the field for a TD in 1 minute with 1 TO left.
I looked and thought maybe I saw Deion Branch reasonably open. It's not clear to me when the DB broke off. Once Tom stops and winds up to throw deep I'm sure if the DB broke off appearing to leave a guy open or if the guy really was open. Maybe Tom should have run with it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Di-p-bOm9SE

If you freeze the tape at 0:10 - 0:12, you'll see a receiver open in the bottom of the screen a yard beyond the first down line (you're right that it's Branch and not Hernandez).

I ran it a couple of times in slow motion, and at the time that Brady scrambles out, there safety isn't anywhere within 10 feet of Branch, and the corner has already dropped into coverage. I may be misjudging the situation, but to me that's not only an easy first down, but also a pile of YAC.

Brady, on the other hand, is so locked down on Gronk down the field it's painful to watch.
It's a more interesting play than I originally thought. It looks to me like he is almost sacked at the 8 sec mark, looks up and sees Gronk doing something interesting (I think it might be the first thing he saw or possibly Gronk was the intended target/1rst option so he was looking for something he liked, totally saw it and thought "perfect") has someone huge coming at him at the 9 second mark, then the decision is made and is started at the 11 mark, at which point the DB might be reading him and letting Deion go.  Deion might have been a bit open to begin with, and with the DB letting him go a guy can get 10 feet open quickly in a second or two. I agree with you Deion was open, but I wonder how much and if that wasn't really the play anyway and just happened to be something that happened.

Re: so...safe to say Welker dropped the superbowl championship?
« Reply #114 on: February 06, 2012, 03:24:57 PM »

Offline Eja117

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It was a bad pass to Welker...Brady cannot make those soft, touch passes.

And Welker saw it, got ready for it, got his hands on it, dropped it, and didn't want to look at the world afterwards. 

Contributory negligence report

Welker ..90%

Brady...10%

Giants defense...0%

the elements ...0%

Welker contorted his body to get his hands on it which was a great play by him. The throw was bad. He was wide open. Brady missed him.
There are many many many high school players that can and have made that catch, let alone Walker. Like Collinsworth said (former NFL WR) Welker makes that catch 100 times out of 100.

  I couldn't believe that comment. I don't think that there have been too many (if any) receivers that I've seen that make that catch a majority of the time. At least not since they outlawed stick-em. It was a bad pass, plain and simple.

So Collinsworth is just being really generous to Brady and Welker wanted to stick his head in the ground, because he was upset the ball was badly thrown and that Brady put him in that situation?  Who made the tougher catches? The Pats or the Giants?  It's nowhere near as hard as the many one handers we saw this year.

All you have to do is stand and look over your right shoulder, then move your hands up and to the right a little and there you go. No contortion needed. Just to turn around. Very simple turn around play. Hit him in the hands. Any receiver that thinks he's always going to be hit in stride or something should probably play DB.

Re: so...safe to say Welker dropped the superbowl championship?
« Reply #115 on: February 06, 2012, 03:32:25 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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I can tell you exactly what Gronk was doing, since there was a closeup on him during the game.

Gronk does a stutter step and beats his man deep, then kind of gives up on the play when it looks like Brady's getting sacked. But when Brady scrambles, he just keeps running deep. So if the throw was deep enough.

So yes, if the throw is deep enough, he's scoring a TD untouched. However, as it is pretty clear from what happened during the game, if the ball is underthrown, Gronk is in no physical shape to cut back. I think it was an unnecessary risk.

As for Branch, the corner is playing deep. If you look  at ~0:10, you can see the safety coming, but he's late -- so if Brady isn't so focused on Gronk, he can easily make the throw (he'll have enough time, since he doesn't have to wind up for a 50-yard hurl). But he never even looks into Branch's direction. Very un-Brady-like.
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Re: so...safe to say Welker dropped the superbowl championship?
« Reply #116 on: February 06, 2012, 03:35:20 PM »

Offline Eja117

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I can tell you exactly what Gronk was doing, since there was a closeup on him during the game.

Gronk does a stutter step and beats his man deep, then kind of gives up on the play when it looks like Brady's getting sacked. But when Brady scrambles, he just keeps running deep. So if the throw was deep enough.

So yes, if the throw is deep enough, he's scoring a TD untouched. However, as it is pretty clear from what happened during the game, if the ball is underthrown, Gronk is in no physical shape to cut back. I think it was an unnecessary risk.

As for Branch, the corner is playing deep. If you look  at ~0:10, you can see the safety coming, but he's late -- so if Brady isn't so focused on Gronk, he can easily make the throw (he'll have enough time, since he doesn't have to wind up for a 50-yard hurl). But he never even looks into Branch's direction. Very un-Brady-like.
It's strange to me because if Gronk wasn't supposed to get the pass why would Tom look to the deepest place on the field at the guy with the hurt leg? And why did that guy call for it? Just coincidence that Gronk was open and then took an opportunity maybe, but very unBradyish to focus in on such a thing as that, especially when he has a closer option moving in the direction he was

Re: so...safe to say Welker dropped the superbowl championship?
« Reply #117 on: February 06, 2012, 03:38:46 PM »

Offline TheReaLPuba

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Can't blame just one guy for this loss.

So many guys dropped passes.

Brady missed a bunch of wide open WRs.

The defense couldn't stop the Giants from going down field at all.

Eli's lone TD was play called right by the Pats Defense but the LB didn't even look back and easily could have deflected it or picked it off.

Coaching was questionable at best as well.

Why didn't they let the Giants score when they got within FG range?

Why didn't they take the offside penalty in the red zone? (didn't cost them but it could have)

Why did they even play Gronk the guy couldn't move well at all!

The only guy who I thought played well was Danny Woodhead.

And for the most part the defensive line was solid too.

But that isn't enough to win a freaking Superbowl.

Re: so...safe to say Welker dropped the superbowl championship?
« Reply #118 on: February 06, 2012, 03:39:19 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5snDQnd_Mw

You can see Gronk's route at about 0:57.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: so...safe to say Welker dropped the superbowl championship?
« Reply #119 on: February 06, 2012, 03:39:31 PM »

Offline wiley

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It was a bad pass to Welker...Brady cannot make those soft, touch passes.

And Welker saw it, got ready for it, got his hands on it, dropped it, and didn't want to look at the world afterwards. 

Contributory negligence report

Welker ..90%

Brady...10%

Giants defense...0%

the elements ...0%

Welker contorted his body to get his hands on it which was a great play by him. The throw was bad. He was wide open. Brady missed him.
There are many many many high school players that can and have made that catch, let alone Walker. Like Collinsworth said (former NFL WR) Welker makes that catch 100 times out of 100.

  I couldn't believe that comment. I don't think that there have been too many (if any) receivers that I've seen that make that catch a majority of the time. At least not since they outlawed stick-em. It was a bad pass, plain and simple.

So Collinsworth is just being really generous to Brady and Welker wanted to stick his head in the ground, because he was upset the ball was badly thrown and that Brady put him in that situation?  Who made the tougher catches? The Pats or the Giants?  It's nowhere near as hard as the many one handers we saw this year.

All you have to do is stand and look over your right shoulder, then move your hands up and to the right a little and there you go. No contortion needed. Just to turn around. Very simple turn around play. Hit him in the hands. Any receiver that thinks he's always going to be hit in stride or something should probably play DB.

Of course Welker was p---ed...not because he had 24 hours to deconstruct what just happened, but because he knew how important the play was...
the rest of your post is based on evaluating the game as if it's played in slow motion.