Hate to say it, but Rondo, I feel, hurting Celtics' offensive options, bigtime.

[Fafnir]

Well the past two games haven't been Rondo's best certainly, but the C's offense has done well against two top 10 defenses.

The Knicks are 10th and Memphis is 8th as far as defensive efficiency.

Knicks  game 107.7 ORtg
Memphis game 108.9 ORtg

Given that the C's season average is around 102 ORtg that's pretty good.

Pretty surprising that the Knicks are actually a decent defensive squad this year.  Too bad their offense is pretty terrible.

Yeah, though it makes some sense. Amar'e has improved defensively quite a bit the past year and a half and now he's playing PF instead of C. Chandler is a massive upgrade over Amar'e/Turiaf for the majority of the C minutes.

Plus playing a big athlete like Shumpert at the PG has paid dividends on the defensive end for all the pain it causes offensively.

Not what I expected of the Knicks before their big move to get Chandler, or even after certainly.

[dtrader]

A) Rondo does not suck at defense.  The 2 games hes been back, look at the box score for Shumpert's and Conley's performances.

B) Rondos mid-range game is acceptable

C) Yes, his free throw shooting sucks and is inexcusable

D) His standing at the top of the key is due to playcalling that has people running off screens for 15 seconds.  I hate watching it.

A- Shumpert is a rookie with limited offensive game, and Conley honestly sucks. Limiting two mediocre players proves nothing.

B- Rondo has no midrange game.  Midrange implies shooting, and Rondo doesnt.  He probably only took 2 actual "shots" the past two games.

C- Youre right.

D - I agree.

Also...Memphis was playing us without their best defensive player (TA), so using that game as a win over a "top 10 defense" is weak.  The Knicks game was good, but we still barely broke 90. Its not like we really abused their defense.

[Fafnir]

The Knicks game was good, but we still barely broke 90. Its not like we really abused their defense.

The Knicks game was a slow paced game, only 84 or so possessions for each team. Pace matters an awful lot when you are evaluating a team's offense or defense in any given game (even more so over the course of the season)

Tony Allen wasn't there that's true, but we have done a lot worse against worse defenses than what Memphis is capable of doing even without Tony Allen on the court.

[Capricious]

A) Rondo does not suck at defense.  The 2 games hes been back, look at the box score for Shumpert's and Conley's performances.

B) Rondos mid-range game is acceptable

C) Yes, his free throw shooting sucks and is inexcusable

D) His standing at the top of the key is due to playcalling that has people running off screens for 15 seconds.  I hate watching it.

A- Shumpert is a rookie with limited offensive game, and Conley honestly sucks. Limiting two mediocre players proves nothing.

B- Rondo has no midrange game.  Midrange implies shooting, and Rondo doesnt.  He probably only took 2 actual "shots" the past two games.

C- Youre right.

D - I agree.

Also...Memphis was playing us without their best defensive player (TA), so using that game as a win over a "top 10 defense" is weak.  The Knicks game was good, but we still barely broke 90. Its not like we really abused their defense.

You can't pick who you play against - he plays good D.  I figured I would use the most recent examples.

Rondo attempts as many 16-23 footers (and is hitting at a higher % than pierce and allen) and more 10-15 footers than ray allen.  Does ray allen not "shoot"?

[BballTim]

A) Rondo does not suck at defense.  The 2 games hes been back, look at the box score for Shumpert's and Conley's performances.

B) Rondos mid-range game is acceptable

C) Yes, his free throw shooting sucks and is inexcusable

D) His standing at the top of the key is due to playcalling that has people running off screens for 15 seconds.  I hate watching it.

A- Shumpert is a rookie with limited offensive game, and Conley honestly sucks. Limiting two mediocre players proves nothing.

B- Rondo has no midrange game.  Midrange implies shooting, and Rondo doesnt.  He probably only took 2 actual "shots" the past two games.

A- Rondo, by almost any measure, limits the offensive production about as well as any other point guard in the league. He's also very disruptive in general. I missed the last game and only saw part of the second quarter of the Knicks game. But one of the first plays I saw in that game was Shumpert having the ball poked away by Rondo when Shumpert was trying to drive. The Knicks maintained possession and the ball went to the other guard (Lin, I think). Rondo grabbed at the ball when Lin (driving past whoever was covering him) got too close to Rondo. The Knicks again maintained possession, but ended up with a 24 second violation. That's one of the things that Rondo does very well that many people overlook.

B- Rondo takes about as many 10-15 foot and 16-23 foot jump shots as the average point guard and makes about as many of them as the average point guard as well.

[Chris]

I think Rondo certainly hurt them on offense on Friday (not sure about Sunday).  He was out of rhythm, and the team had gotten hot by simplifying things.

However, that is somewhat irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.  To me, the bottom line is this team needs another star, other than the Big 3, if they want any chance in the playoffs this year.

Rondo has fit into the offense well at times, but they seem to have lost the rhythm since the middle of last year.  But, all that means is they need to find that rhythm again...and they have about 2 and a half months to do it. 

[kozlodoev]

Another 2 games, another 10 turnovers. When does it end?

[ianboyextreme]

Broken records are really unpleasant. Rondo had 14 assists, the team ran, he played like vintage rondo. We won by 18 with Rondo running the offense. The offense is not better without Rondo. Period.

[Fafnir]

Another 2 games, another 10 turnovers. When does it end?

I don't know when you'll stop posting about it, that's up to you.

Seriously though Rondo is currently averaging right around the same TO% as last year up .6 TOPG from 3.4 to 4.0. I'm not sure its going to get any lower with the amount of ballhandling Rondo has to do for this team.

[OttawaCeltic]

Broken records are really unpleasant. Rondo had 14 assists, the team ran, he played like vintage rondo. We won by 18 with Rondo running the offense. The offense is not better without Rondo. Period.

period? no, the Grizzlies REALLY just had a B.A.D game. Compare Pierce running the floor vs Rondo running the floor and there is a HUGE difference. And this difference is on Pierce's side. Period.

[Fafnir]

Broken records are really unpleasant. Rondo had 14 assists, the team ran, he played like vintage rondo. We won by 18 with Rondo running the offense. The offense is not better without Rondo. Period.

period? no, the Grizzlies REALLY just had a B.A.D game. Compare Pierce running the floor vs Rondo running the floor and there is a HUGE difference. And this difference is on Pierce's side. Period.

Then why did the Celtics offense play worse with Pierce running the show? And by play worse I mean they flat out scored less points per possession than the first 13 games with Rondo? This was against a weaker slate of defensive teams as well.

I think a huge part of it is the transition offense that Rondo brings. In the games he missed as I said earlier in the thread the C's only got around 6 PPG in transition, with Rondo that number is around 12 PPG. The C's beat Memphis with their transition offense (26 pts for the C's, 10 for Griz) if you want a recent example of this.

Perhaps the C's are better in the half court with just Pierce running the show, I don't have access to breakdowns of half court offensive efficiencies.

[OttawaCeltic]

Another 2 games, another 10 turnovers. When does it end?

I don't know when you'll stop posting about it, that's up to you.

Seriously though Rondo is currently averaging right around the same TO% as last year up .6 TOPG from 3.4 to 4.0. I'm not sure its going to get any lower with the amount of ballhandling Rondo has to do for this team.

its not his fault that Rondo can't play the best b-ball for a PG. Plus, be more 'open-minded' when others post stuff against Rondo*

*that also goes to all those other 'Rondo-Riders' out there in CB

[OttawaCeltic]

Broken records are really unpleasant. Rondo had 14 assists, the team ran, he played like vintage rondo. We won by 18 with Rondo running the offense. The offense is not better without Rondo. Period.

period? no, the Grizzlies REALLY just had a B.A.D game. Compare Pierce running the floor vs Rondo running the floor and there is a HUGE difference. And this difference is on Pierce's side. Period.

Then why did the Celtics offense play worse with Pierce running the show? And by play worse I mean they flat out scored less points per possession than the first 13 games with Rondo? This was against a weaker slate of defensive teams as well.

I think a huge part of it is the transition offense that Rondo brings. In the games he missed as I said earlier in the thread the C's only got around 6 PPG in transition, with Rondo that number is around 12 PPG. The C's beat Memphis with their transition offense (26 pts for the C's, 10 for Griz) if you want a recent example of this.

Perhaps the C's are better in the half court with just Pierce running the show, I don't have access to breakdowns of half court offensive efficiencies.

Why? This is why:

[Tai]

Broken records are really unpleasant. Rondo had 14 assists, the team ran, he played like vintage rondo. We won by 18 with Rondo running the offense. The offense is not better without Rondo. Period.

period? no, the Grizzlies REALLY just had a B.A.D game. Compare Pierce running the floor vs Rondo running the floor and there is a HUGE difference. And this difference is on Pierce's side. Period.

So we're giving the Grizzlies a pass for a game but when Rondo has one or two bad games, the offense is worse with him and it's time to think up more trade ideas? 

But Rondo-riders are the one that's not so open-minded.....I definitely think they're more ingenuous.

[Celtics4ever]

We won yesterday by a large margin.  These wins have nothing to do with our PG and more to do with the resurface of PP.