Are we really better w/o Rondo or will his return vault us back to eliteness?

[mqtcelticsfan]

he wasn't injured tonight

Rondo = Wolverine?

[5.9.20.34.43]

Was content with ab and rondo on the floor together, we are still working out kinks.

[greenpride32]

At the end of the game tonight, I was half-thinking...leave AB in.  The problem is that Avery is still so limited offensively - even if he could dribble with the ball as well as Paul or Ray, who are not 1s, that would be a big help.  Rondo certainly a better passer and penetrater, but Avery making his presence felt.

The team made its comeback with AB in the game in the late 3rd and first 7 minutes of the 4th.  AB didn't contribute much to it at all, but our offense was more effective with Paul and Ray on the ball instead of RR.  Offense was very stagnant with Rondo in, but to be fair he doesn't look close to being 100% or comfortable out there.

[Vermont Green]

Bradley tonight +9, Rondo, -8.  Bradley seemed to be the guy to give them a spark that got them back in the game.  I have been on Rondo in this thread and I still think he has issues.  Tonight I thought he was not as aggressive as usual and favoring his arm.  I also thought that he was trying at times to move the ball more which I applaud although he just didn't have the energy and really had a subpar game by his standards.

Let's give him a few games though before we bench him for Bradley. I believe he can give the team more than Bradley but if he doesn't let his game evolve, Bradley may start to close the gap as I think Bradley's offense is going to come.

[Chris]

This team needs to work out the kinks.  At the moment they are playing better when they simplify things, and that is easier with Pierce running the show than Rondo, however, if they want any hope to beat elite teams, they are going to need to find the balance where they can use Rondo's strengths to compliment the other guys.

Doc needs to be hitting the film room hard right now, because this is on him, as much as it is on Rondo.  He has always been excellent at integrating players skillsets to maximize their positives and minimize their negatives.  Lets see what he can do here.

He has found the balance before, but this is a different group of players, and he needs to find it again.

[Kuberski1]

This team needs to work out the kinks.  At the moment they are playing better when they simplify things, and that is easier with Pierce running the show than Rondo, however, if they want any hope to beat elite teams, they are going to need to find the balance where they can use Rondo's strengths to compliment the other guys.

Doc needs to be hitting the film room hard right now, because this is on him, as much as it is on Rondo.  He has always been excellent at integrating players skillsets to maximize their positives and minimize their negatives.  Lets see what he can do here.

He has found the balance before, but this is a different group of players, and he needs to find it again.

This.  What I think Doc really needs to do is figure out the right rotations for the right situations.  Unlike in years past, there is not a large gap between the starters and key reserves. 

[Celticjay]

Rondo needs a few games to get his wind back.   I was comparing his on the ball defense to Bradleys tonight and came to the conculsion that Bradely is in a league of his own.  He plays with so much more consistent energy.   He always stays in front of his man and is a decent help defender. 

Rondo uses his wingspan well to disrupt passes but he doesn't stay in front of his man well and once he is to the side he just starts to poke at the ball.  He only picked up the ball carrier at half court a few times. 

At the end of the game though he was instrumental in running the offense and got Ray some good looks, which Bradley wouldn't have been able to do..

Seems we need to maximize their skills

Rondo needs to pass the ball earlier in the offense and stay in front of his man.  If we play him less minutes he can pick up guys at half court more and be a disturbance.

I say Rondo 32 minutes and Bradley 20. 

Hell we should have them play together a little more too.  If they need a burst of energy just have the 2 of them and Pietrus  go after it..   

Doc has some nice options this year..   Just imagine Eddie house, Nate and Baby off the bench..  Yikes..

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

I don't know the answer to the OP's question b/c the sample size isn't enough to tell you definitively. I do want to say, I heard Doc say about a bazillion times to MOVE the ball when RR was in! The offense most of the game looked atrocious! In my opinion when AB came in when we were down 7, he started to harass the opposing guard which made them take a lot of time off the clock, his aggressiveness made our other guys pick their D up! When AB went out the game was TIED. AB's aggressiveness helped get us back into the game... even in the first half I feel we played better when RR went out. RR is a great player (easily better than AB at controlling the offense) but tonight, we played better with AB in w/ PP/Ray controlling the offense... also, (my opinion) if RR hadn't played I feel we probably wouldn't have been down to begin with b/c our offense flows better (so far this season) w/o him. I think they should have played him to get his rhythm against a horrible team (raps game)... NYK are bad but they play well against good teams. We got the win so I don't care who played at the end of the day but I'm just saying what I saw and of course it's opinion not fact!

[TheBigFive]

Didn't the captain just say something like "We are still a good team without Rondo, but we are a contender with him"? I mean, really?

Didn't Doc say something like "As Rondo goes, so go the Celtics"? I mean really?

Didn't KG say, "Rondo is like the engine to our team."? I mean really?

What did we all say last year watching Rondo's performance vs the Knicks in the playoffs? And what did we all say after Rondo broke his elbow vs the Heat?

I mean really?

SMH

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

Didn't the captain just say something like "We are still a good team without Rondo, but we are a contender with him"? I mean, really?

Didn't Doc say something like "As Rondo goes, so go the Celtics"? I mean really?

Didn't KG say, "Rondo is like the engine to our team."? I mean really?

What did we all say last year watching Rondo's performance vs the Knicks in the playoffs? And what did we all say after Rondo broke his elbow vs the Heat?

I mean really?

SMH

And...


I can show you video of them all saying things about all the players that you can see for yourself isn't true! I'm not saying what they said isn't true here, but just because they say those things doesn't mean it's how they really feel! No one expects them to say, "no, we are better w/o RR" that would really hurt the team! I don't know what you mean by "And what did we all say after Rondo broke his elbow vs the Heat", I for one thought that while it was cool to see someone be so tough and warrior like, I wanted him to keep himself out of the next game, I wish he rested and let DWest take over b/c he just wasn't close to being right! Heck, we weren't even good against the cheat BEFORE he broke his elbow, it's not like we smashed them in our lone victory!

[Tradetime]

I don't know the answer to the OP's question b/c the sample size isn't enough to tell you definitively. I do want to say, I heard Doc say about a bazillion times to MOVE the ball when RR was in! The offense most of the game looked atrocious! In my opinion when AB came in when we were down 7, he started to harass the opposing guard which made them take a lot of time off the clock, his aggressiveness made our other guys pick their D up! When AB went out the game was TIED. AB's aggressiveness helped get us back into the game... even in the first half I feel we played better when RR went out. RR is a great player (easily better than AB at controlling the offense) but tonight, we played better with AB in w/ PP/Ray controlling the offense... also, (my opinion) if RR hadn't played I feel we probably wouldn't have been down to begin with b/c our offense flows better (so far this season) w/o him. I think they should have played him to get his rhythm against a horrible team (raps game)... NYK are bad but they play well against good teams. We got the win so I don't care who played at the end of the day but I'm just saying what I saw and of course it's opinion not fact!

I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees this. The thing is Pierce needs the ball in his hands to start the offense, and to get his own going. That final possession we had, where Rondo turned back around and looked to Doc in confusion of what he should do as a sixth year pg in the league was baffling. Even Tommy Heinsohn was yelling for him to move the ball up the floor! In the end, Pierce had to put up a desperation three, which wound up not counting as the shot clock expired. This is the stagnant offense I've spoken about in previous posts. It could have cost us the game.

[dtrader]

Bradley tonight +9, Rondo, -8.  Bradley seemed to be the guy to give them a spark that got them back in the game.  I have been on Rondo in this thread and I still think he has issues.  Tonight I thought he was not as aggressive as usual and favoring his arm.  I also thought that he was trying at times to move the ball more which I applaud although he just didn't have the energy and really had a subpar game by his standards.

Let's give him a few games though before we bench him for Bradley. I believe he can give the team more than Bradley but if he doesn't let his game evolve, Bradley may start to close the gap as I think Bradley's offense is going to come.

I dont know what you saw, but I'd say Pierce got us back in the game, and PP and Ray gave us the game.  Bradley didnt really have a good game, and certainly wasnt the catalyst of the comeback IMO.  The biggest advantage I saw with Bradley versus Rondo, is more ball movement, and a far less predictable offense.  When Ray or Pierce make the plays (which theyre forced to with Bradley in), the opposition doesnt really know what we're going to run.  When Rondo gets us set up, the offense almost looks choreographed.

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

Bradley tonight +9, Rondo, -8.  Bradley seemed to be the guy to give them a spark that got them back in the game.  I have been on Rondo in this thread and I still think he has issues.  Tonight I thought he was not as aggressive as usual and favoring his arm.  I also thought that he was trying at times to move the ball more which I applaud although he just didn't have the energy and really had a subpar game by his standards.

Let's give him a few games though before we bench him for Bradley. I believe he can give the team more than Bradley but if he doesn't let his game evolve, Bradley may start to close the gap as I think Bradley's offense is going to come.

I dont know what you saw, but I'd say Pierce got us back in the game, and PP and Ray gave us the game.  Bradley didnt really have a good game, and certainly wasnt the catalyst of the comeback IMO.  The biggest advantage I saw with Bradley versus Rondo, is more ball movement, and a far less predictable offense.  When Ray or Pierce make the plays (which theyre forced to with Bradley in), the opposition doesnt really know what we're going to run.  When Rondo gets us set up, the offense almost looks choreographed.

I don't know what you saw but AB's (Wilcox too) defense (even in Doc's eyes) is what got us going! When AB started to press their PGs you could see it lift the entire team's defensive presence! Yes, AB is no Rondo on offense but his weakness has turned out to be a blessing, allowing PP and Ray (at times) to be the defacto RR. Also AB (again Doc even said)gets the ball down court and makes the first pass fast which gets us into an offensive set faster (it is underrated/goes unnoticed)... he doesn't hold the ball waiting for a play, he gets it started where we wont be waiting til 13 secs to start to run a play (like w/ RR)! Tonight, when RR didn't wait forever to start a play or wait for one to develop is when he looked best... if he does it more often our problems will be solved! Did you hear how many times Doc was like just move the ball, this game and others before RR was injured? He even has had to remind Moore that this isn't college with 35secs on the clock quite a few times.

[guava_wrench]

Pierce was no better in his first games back from injury.

[celtics2]

Pierce was no better in his first games back from injury.

Rondo was no better in his first game back from injury. His instincts haven't changed. One of the reasons the Celts had a losing record with him. Bradley because of his basic instincts had a winning record. Rondo the Showboater and Gambler. On good team Rondo looks good. Bad team, certainly not in the top 5 Point Guards.