Better without Ray?

[BudweiserCeltic]

In reality, the Celtics just don't do a very good job at utlizing him.  He is such a dangerous weapon when used properly.

I agree with this.  Ray is soley an offensive threat at this stage of his career.  But if we're only going to get him 8-10 shots a night that's not going to make up for his defensive liablities unless he shoots 100% each night which isn't going to happen.  So if we aren't going to utilize him yes we are a better team without him.

The problem with this is it takes much more work to get Ray a shot. There has been plenty of times the C's have run out of the shot clock trying to get Ray open while he is running around screen after screen.

Yes, but the thing is Ray shouldn't be ONLY looked for coming off of screens like he is in our offense.  Ray is rarely used for a kick out shot when Rondo penetrates.  We follow our plays very closely and it doesn't allow  for a lot of those opportunities

I agree, which is my main beef with our PGs and Ray usage. Certainly it's a huge mistake waiting for Ray to get open before doing anything offensively. We need to make quicker decisions, and certainly Ray gets himself open enough throughout the game, but the ball doesn't go to him in those situations.

[CelticSooner]

In reality, the Celtics just don't do a very good job at utlizing him.  He is such a dangerous weapon when used properly.

I agree with this.  Ray is soley an offensive threat at this stage of his career.  But if we're only going to get him 8-10 shots a night that's not going to make up for his defensive liablities unless he shoots 100% each night which isn't going to happen.  So if we aren't going to utilize him yes we are a better team without him.

The problem with this is it takes much more work to get Ray a shot. There has been plenty of times the C's have run out of the shot clock trying to get Ray open while he is running around screen after screen.

Yes, but the thing is Ray shouldn't be ONLY looked for coming off of screens like he is in our offense.  Ray is rarely used for a kick out shot when Rondo penetrates.  We follow our plays very closely and it doesn't allow  for a lot of those opportunities

I would like to see more of that but teams are smart enough to not leave Ray open on the wing like they do a guy like Pietrus.

[xmuscularghandix]

Yes we are. Sasha and Pietrus are better defenders, and without Ray Allen you don't have those wasted possessions where everyone watches Ray run in circles for 23 seconds only to ultimately see Rondo jack up some desperation shot.

Ray Allen is the best three point shooter but i don't think there needs to constantly be plays called for just him.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Yes we are. Sasha and Pietrus are better defenders, and without Ray Allen you don't have those wasted possessions where everyone watches Ray run in circles for 23 seconds only to ultimately see Rondo jack up some desperation shot.

Ray Allen is the best three point shooter but i don't think there needs to constantly be plays called for just him.

That's not a Ray Allen problem though, but a playmaking problem.

[Chief]

Th Celts need to evolve here....as for Ray Allen, he needs to accept the role of specialist instead of starter....Whereas a starter might play all game, Ray woul.d now go in, and see what he has tonight, and how the matchup is working. He is still a great shooter..!

I don't think Ray would have a problem with doing this if there was someone on the roster worthy of starting over him...but there's not.  In fact, when you look across the starting Shooting Guards in the Eastern Conference, Ray is amongst the top.

There are quite a few successful teams that start a defensive minded sg instead of the scorer. Better player or not.

[Inside-Out]

Th Celts need to evolve here....as for Ray Allen, he needs to accept the role of specialist instead of starter....Whereas a starter might play all game, Ray woul.d now go in, and see what he has tonight, and how the matchup is working. He is still a great shooter..!

I don't think Ray would have a problem with doing this if there was someone on the roster worthy of starting over him...but there's not.  In fact, when you look across the starting Shooting Guards in the Eastern Conference, Ray is amongst the top.

There are quite a few successful teams that start a defensive minded sg instead of the scorer. Better player or not.

And the real secret of the dominant 6th man is that he's usually not the 6th best player, but actually 3rd or 4th, and ends up feasting on actual second stringers for a significant portion of his minutes.

Starting someone else at SG [Pietrus, Moore, or Bradley] and bringing Ray off the bench wouldn't have to mean Ray plays less than 30 minutes, but he'll probaby only have to defend the Wade/Rip/Johnson/Iggydala guys for 15 of those, and then could more easily torch the 2nd string defender he'd be matched up with for the other 15 of his 30 minutes.  Pietrus, Moore, or Bradley would have plenty of energy and 6 fouls to burn up in their 18-20 minutes, wearing out the opposing starter before a fresh Ray comes in to finish the job.

Ray really should be coming off the bench, and not because he isn't as good or that there's a young bench guy that's surpassed him.  It'd be better for the team at this point, and that seems pretty obvious to me.

[Chief]

Th Celts need to evolve here....as for Ray Allen, he needs to accept the role of specialist instead of starter....Whereas a starter might play all game, Ray woul.d now go in, and see what he has tonight, and how the matchup is working. He is still a great shooter..!

I don't think Ray would have a problem with doing this if there was someone on the roster worthy of starting over him...but there's not.  In fact, when you look across the starting Shooting Guards in the Eastern Conference, Ray is amongst the top.

There are quite a few successful teams that start a defensive minded sg instead of the scorer. Better player or not.

And the real secret of the dominant 6th man is that he's usually not the 6th best player, but actually 3rd or 4th, and ends up feasting on actual second stringers for a significant portion of his minutes.

Starting someone else at SG [Pietrus, Moore, or Bradley] and bringing Ray off the bench wouldn't have to mean Ray plays less than 30 minutes, but he'll probaby only have to defend the Wade/Rip/Johnson/Iggydala guys for 15 of those, and then could more easily torch the 2nd string defender he'd be matched up with for the other 15 of his 30 minutes.  Pietrus, Moore, or Bradley would have plenty of energy and 6 fouls to burn up in their 18-20 minutes, wearing out the opposing starter before a fresh Ray comes in to finish the job.

Ray really should be coming off the bench, and not because he isn't as good or that there's a young bench guy that's surpassed him.  It'd be better for the team at this point, and that seems pretty obvious to me.

Exactly. TP!!

[looseball]

Th Celts need to evolve here....as for Ray Allen, he needs to accept the role of specialist instead of starter....Whereas a starter might play all game, Ray woul.d now go in, and see what he has tonight, and how the matchup is working. He is still a great shooter..!

I don't think Ray would have a problem with doing this if there was someone on the roster worthy of starting over him...but there's not.  In fact, when you look across the starting Shooting Guards in the Eastern Conference, Ray is amongst the top.

There are quite a few successful teams that start a defensive minded sg instead of the scorer. Better player or not.

And the real secret of the dominant 6th man is that he's usually not the 6th best player, but actually 3rd or 4th, and ends up feasting on actual second stringers for a significant portion of his minutes.

Starting someone else at SG [Pietrus, Moore, or Bradley] and bringing Ray off the bench wouldn't have to mean Ray plays less than 30 minutes, but he'll probaby only have to defend the Wade/Rip/Johnson/Iggydala guys for 15 of those, and then could more easily torch the 2nd string defender he'd be matched up with for the other 15 of his 30 minutes.  Pietrus, Moore, or Bradley would have plenty of energy and 6 fouls to burn up in their 18-20 minutes, wearing out the opposing starter before a fresh Ray comes in to finish the job.

Ray really should be coming off the bench, and not because he isn't as good or that there's a young bench guy that's surpassed him.  It'd be better for the team at this point, and that seems pretty obvious to me.

Exactly. TP!!

This makes a lot of sense to me, but it just ain't Doc's style.  Ray will start and play 35 min. as long as he's healthy.

[5.9.20.34.43]

Yes.....

[gar]

Th Celts need to evolve here....as for Ray Allen, he needs to accept the role of specialist instead of starter....Whereas a starter might play all game, Ray woul.d now go in, and see what he has tonight, and how the matchup is working. He is still a great shooter..!

I don't think Ray would have a problem with doing this if there was someone on the roster worthy of starting over him...but there's not.  In fact, when you look across the starting Shooting Guards in the Eastern Conference, Ray is amongst the top.

There are quite a few successful teams that start a defensive minded sg instead of the scorer. Better player or not.

And the real secret of the dominant 6th man is that he's usually not the 6th best player, but actually 3rd or 4th, and ends up feasting on actual second stringers for a significant portion of his minutes.

Starting someone else at SG [Pietrus, Moore, or Bradley] and bringing Ray off the bench wouldn't have to mean Ray plays less than 30 minutes, but he'll probaby only have to defend the Wade/Rip/Johnson/Iggydala guys for 15 of those, and then could more easily torch the 2nd string defender he'd be matched up with for the other 15 of his 30 minutes.  Pietrus, Moore, or Bradley would have plenty of energy and 6 fouls to burn up in their 18-20 minutes, wearing out the opposing starter before a fresh Ray comes in to finish the job.

Ray really should be coming off the bench, and not because he isn't as good or that there's a young bench guy that's surpassed him.  It'd be better for the team at this point, and that seems pretty obvious to me.

Exactly. TP!!

This makes a lot of sense to me, but it just ain't Doc's style.  Ray will start and play 35 min. as long as he's healthy.

If Ray is not coming off the bench we will not get above 500. Unfortunately with Rondo out Ray may continue to be a starter; but need to make this happen ASAP.

[ianboyextreme]

I completely agree that Ray should come off the bench. I think it just makes sense, especially after seeing how well that defensive intensity starts the game these last few games. Running plays for Ray while he tries to get open slows down the offense and stagnates it. I love Ray and he should still play like 30 minutes a game but our fall back offensive play should not be him running around screens looking for a 3. The reason we have been playing so well (besides everyone getting in shape) is because we aernt looking for one guy to score, we are just passing til we get an open man and the offense flows so well like that.

[green7]

told yall what would happen when ray comes back, no more ball movement no more energy everyone else would play slowly. and of course ray will shoot great he's a great shooter one of the greatest,but this team looks old with him in the starting line up.

[Eja117]

I SAID this thread would come back if they lost...1 point

[raynman]

Told y'all before that Ray should come off the bench and Pietrus should start (I did a post before Mikael even played).. But somehow I got crucified..
I'm also open to trading him (Ray  for Monta, anyone?) , but him just having a new baby might make that harder.. But hey, it's a business!

[ianboyextreme]

told yall what would happen when ray comes back, no more ball movement no more energy everyone else would play slowly. and of course ray will shoot great he's a great shooter one of the greatest,but this team looks old with him in the starting line up.

The ball movement was there somewhat, the energy not as much. Ray needs to come off the bench. I dont see how Doc cant see that and I think he will.