Tell me how you'd split up our 25 mil in cap space

[LarBrd33]

Seeing the money at work is actually kind of disheartening...

Im really torn with how we go about retooling this team. If you look to the past to see what makes up championship teams there are a few differnt fomulas

1.Super Star + elite 2nd player (jordan+pippen, Kobe, Gasol, Stockon,Malone[if not for jordan], Duncan,robinson,

2.Super Star + perfect complimentary players (Dallas,Houston,detriot isiah years)

3.Five could be all-stars (Billups lead pistons)

The Big three celtics where a mix of 1 and 3.


Going forward I think we have to shoot for the very rare option 3. The hardest pieces to get are PG and C. We already have Rondo so I feel our next step should be finding a center who could be a border line allstar in 2-3 years. My choices would be Hibbert, Hawes, Asik ,and Magee in that order. If we can come out of this offseason paying fair market value 9.5-11 mill for one of those young centers I would be happy. After that I would offer the remaining available $ to eric gordon, not likely but we should at least try. When that fails we could then try to get mayo for aroun what memphis is playing TA 3-4 mill. If he excepts split the rest between Bass and Green for no more then 2 year deals.

Rondo
Mayo
Pierce
Bass
Asik/Hawes

Green
Avery
Johnson
Steimsma
Moore
rookie
rookie
  

Ok so you want a big man for 9.5 MINIMUM

Bare minimum Bass is going to cost you 4 mil (since that's his player option)  

That leaves you a total of 11.5 mil.  You think you can sign a restricted free agent like Eric Gordon or OJ Mayo (Mayo's qualifying offer alone is 7.4 mil) and still have enough money for Jeff Green?

It's ambitious and unlikely, but I support it.  

Still, you're saying goodbye to KG and Ray.  Essentially your "best case scenario" plan is to replace KG and Ray with Spencer Hawes and OJ Mayo. 

So... are you on board with trading Ray now for a draft pick if possible?

Seeing the money at work is actually kind of disheartening...

Exactly.    I rest my case.  This is why you have people pushing for the Celtics to trade Pierce for expiring contracts and young cheap talent.   The money doesn't go as far as people think.  

[Chris]

Assuming guys like Howard are off the table, the only free agent I am strongly interested in is Spencer Hawes.

I would offer Hawes up to something in the range of 10-12 million per year.  I think he is just coming into his own now that he is growing into his body, and I think he will be a top 5 center in this league.

Then, I would use the rest to consider trades, but if nothing presents itself that made sense, I would try to bring back some combination of KG, Ray, and Green on 1 year deals, to maintain future flexibility, so Danny is able to act when the next star becomes available.

Assuming you blow 10 mil on Hawes...

You now have 15 mil to split amongst KG, Ray and Green.  Are you planning on giving them 5 mil each?  Do you believe they will take 5 mil each?  Letting Bass walk?

I had written this out before, so here is my whole scenario:



Lets say they renounce everyone.  So, essentially they have Rondo (11m), Pierce (16.8m), Bradley (1.6m), Johnson (1.2) million signed (I will also assume Bass opts out).

So, that's 30.6 million spoken for.  They would then have 2 first round picks.  Lets say one mid first rounder (1.4m cap hold), one late first rounder (1m cap hold).  That is 6 roster spots and $33 million spoken for.  They would need another 7 minimum cap holds (we will round it to .5m per cap hold), putting them at $36.5 million.  With a cap of $60 million, that gives them 23.5 million to work with to fill out the roster.

Lets say they paid a center $11.5 million (with 4.5% raises, that comes out to approximately a 4 year/$50 million deal).  So, you add that to the salary and you have 48m...subtract .5 million for the roster spot they opened up and they are at 47.5 million with 7 guys...so $12.5 million remaining.

Sign KG and Ray to deals of $6 million each (or substitute Green for one of them, if he wants to sign a 1 year prove it deal).  That leaves you with .5 remaining...plus the 2 minimum cap holds you gain back, so you have 1.5 million and 9 spots filled.  Obviously it is a huge leap to suggest Ray and KG would take those contracts.  But there is a possibility they will take a hometown discount to stay here...and there is a chance its more than they would get per year on the open market anyways, since most of the teams they would consider going to would be over the cap and would only have the MLE to offer.  And they might be fine going year to year at this point in their careers.

Now you can use $2 million to sign another player to get up to the cap (the $1.5 million, I mentioned before, plus another .5 million that is freed up because you are eliminating another roster cap hold).  So, that puts you right at the cap with 10 spots filled.

Use the "space exception" to sign another player for $2.5 million (maybe Pietrus?).  Then fill out the roster with minimum salaried players.

So, in this scenario, you are able to pay decent market value for a top 10 center on the free agent market.  You would likely have to let Green walk, unless he really wants to come back and prove himself on the 2.5m exception...although I think he would get a better offer elsewhere.  You pay KG and Ray a reasonable salary given what they would make per year on the open market, but are still getting a bit of a bargain, spurred on by their desire to stay with the organization that has been loyal to them, and in the city they seem pretty happy in (at least Ray...I have no idea with KG).  And you are able to field a potentially better roster next year, with a second building block next to Rondo, while keeping max cap room for 2013 to try again to add the star they need.

Long winded, but basically what you're saying is...

11.5 mil for a center (a Chris Kaman for example)
6 mil for Ray (huge leap he'll take it)
6 mil for KG (huge leap he'll take it)

And you are letting Jeff Green and Bass walk. Filling out the rest of the roster with close to vet min contracts (Pietrus for example).


So essentially your plan is to keep our 7-9 team intact... age the big 3 another year... and replace Bass with Chris Kaman.  Yes?

Follow-up question:  If your master plan is to replace Bass with Chris Kaman, would you consider trading Bass, Jermaine O'Neal and Wilcox for Kaman RIGHT NOW?... if not... why not?

One clarification.  I am not setting aside 11.5 million for a center.  I am setting aside that money for Hawes.  I would not give that to any other free agent center (other than Howard) this summer.

I think Hawes is the only non-superstar free agent that is worth going well over the MLE for next summer.  If you can't get him, I would be trying to use the cap space via trades and/or carrying it over.

And the whole idea of this is not to bring back the same roster.  It is to not give away the cap space for guys who are not real core players going forward.  So, unless you love someone, then fill in the spot with short term contracts (it just so happens that KG and Allen might be the best available short term contract guys out there), so you can then get the next superstar when they become available, either via free agency or trade.

Still... your entire plan revolves around Ray and KG taking incredible pay cuts (6 mil each), letting Jeff Green walk and replacing Brandon Bass with Spencer Hawes.  Right?

You are focussing on the small details, that IMO are irrelevant.  The important parts are A. sign Hawes if you can and B. maintain as much flexibility as you can for when a real star becomes available via free agency or via trade.

[StartOrien]

Chandler somehting like 4/32

Anthony Randolph on 3/15

keep the rest and wait for a much better 2013 class

Wilson Chandler will probably get more than that from some desperate team.

Anthony Randolph isn't worth that much.

Anthony Randolph isn't worth the money he'll lose to Antoine Walker when they're traveling together in the d league

[nickagneta]

First, what is the max you now have to spend to each year?

90% of the cap or 80%.

So if I'm the Celtics and can't sign a top free agent this off season, I do not under any circumstances put into jeopardy future off seasons by trading for or locking up players that are not long term difference making stars.

Next year I don't have to split up $25 million in cap space. Depending on the spending minimum I might only have to spend $15-20 million of it.

If great free agents are not to be had, its one year deals and losing for me. develop Moore, Stiemsma, Bradley, Johnson and the two first rounders and sign a bunch of players that will fill in the gaps. Then if the year after Pierce wants to retire, we amnesty him, and deal with the question of how to deal with $40 million in cap space in a year in which Chris Paul, Monte Ellis, Tyreke Evans, James Harden, Serge Ibaka, Paul Millsap, and others will be available.

Same question to you.  Your plan doesn't seem to involve bringing back Ray or KG.  WOuld you trade Ray now for a late 1st rounder if you could?

To Chicago for CJ Miles and Korver (neither are guaranteed next year) + a late 1st rounder

or

To Utah for their 10.8 mil trade exception (from the Okur deal) + a late 1st rounder

?

Who said I had no intention of bringing them back? I said one year deals and fill in the gaps.

If KG and Ray want to, after being renounced, sign at extremely fair rates on one year deals(or two year deals, second year team optional with a small payoff of guaranteed money), then I would gladly have them back under the understanding they are bench players in reduced roles on a team striving to develop young talent first and winning is way, way, way down the list of priorities.

I view them as no different than other free agent talent that I would sign on to fill the gaps of a team not wanting to put into jeopardy their long term cap flexibility.

No, I would not trade them this year for any late first round pick. We have seen the type of talent that gets you and its not the type of talent that rebuilds franchises. The type of draft picks I want are future unprotected ones that have a chance at being in the lottery like the Minnesota pick that is in play between NO and the clippers or the Golden State pick owned by Utah or the NY pick owned by Houston(if Amare or Melo get hurt and NY falls into the lottery which could be known by mid March.).

[JSD]

Make a strong run at Dwight. If he can be recruited renounce everyone and sign him. If not, there's two different ways to go in my opinion:

1) Re-sign KG, Allen, Green and Bass. Money under doesn't matter as they all have bird-rights. Align KG and Allen to expire with Pierce so we are positioned to become major players in 2014.

2) Renounce everyone and trade Rondo for a lottery pick (Rondo to non playoff bound Phoenix for their 1st rounder, for instance). Ask Pierce what he wants to do. Hopefully he wants to ride it out as a mentor and with "The Man" status. We rebuild through the draft.

[LarBrd33]

Make a strong run at Dwight. If he can be recruited renounce everyone and sign him. If not, there's two different ways to go in my opinion:

1) Re-sign KG, Allen, Green and Bass. Money under doesn't matter as they all have bird-rights. Align KG and Allen to expire with Pierce so we are positioned to become major players in 2014.

DO we have bird rights on Jeff Green?  Isn't he an unrestricted free agent right now?  

How about Bass?

[Chris]

Make a strong run at Dwight. If he can be recruited renounce everyone and sign him. If not, there's two different ways to go in my opinion:

1) Re-sign KG, Allen, Green and Bass. Money under doesn't matter as they all have bird-rights. Align KG and Allen to expire with Pierce so we are positioned to become major players in 2014.

DO we have bird rights on Jeff Green?  Isn't he an unrestricted free agent right now?  

How about Bass?

Yes, we have bird rights on both of them.  My problem with signing Bass is that he is going to be looking for a longterm deal at big money.  The starting point would be 4 years/20 million, and it would likely be closer to 4/25-30 million if he keeps up the pace he is at.

[Moranis]

In terms of the Celtics free agents ...

I expect Garnett to retire. No interest in re-signing Ray Allen unless Boston is still competing for a title but I don't see how that is possible if Dwight Howard doesn't arrive this summer. So no Ray either.

I am open to signing Jeff Green but I really don't give a [dang] one way or the other.

No interest in giving Bass a multi-year deal. I would let him leave. I would expect Pietrus to leave once the C's title shot is finished with. Go join a true contender. So no to both of them too.

So with your plan you have no intention of keeping Bass, Ray or KG.   

Let me ask you this question then.  If you could get a late 1st rounder for Bass or Ray RIGHT NOW, would you do it?  Are you that optimistic about our playoff chances that you would rather lose them for nothing in a few short months?

If I could get a first for Ray, KG, JO, or Pierce I move them right now and don't give it a second thought.  I wouldn't mind keeping Bass around at a similar salary as to what he has now, so I wouldn't move him.

[PosImpos]

Make a strong run at Dwight. If he can be recruited renounce everyone and sign him. If not, there's two different ways to go in my opinion:

1) Re-sign KG, Allen, Green and Bass. Money under doesn't matter as they all have bird-rights. Align KG and Allen to expire with Pierce so we are positioned to become major players in 2014.

DO we have bird rights on Jeff Green?  Isn't he an unrestricted free agent right now? 

How about Bass?

Yes, we have bird rights on both of them.  My problem with signing Bass is that he is going to be looking for a longterm deal at big money.  The starting point would be 4 years/20 million, and it would likely be closer to 4/25-30 million if he keeps up the pace he is at.

At his age and with his productivity, I think 4 years 28-30 million is a very fair deal for Brandon Bass.

[Chris]

Make a strong run at Dwight. If he can be recruited renounce everyone and sign him. If not, there's two different ways to go in my opinion:

1) Re-sign KG, Allen, Green and Bass. Money under doesn't matter as they all have bird-rights. Align KG and Allen to expire with Pierce so we are positioned to become major players in 2014.

DO we have bird rights on Jeff Green?  Isn't he an unrestricted free agent right now? 

How about Bass?

Yes, we have bird rights on both of them.  My problem with signing Bass is that he is going to be looking for a longterm deal at big money.  The starting point would be 4 years/20 million, and it would likely be closer to 4/25-30 million if he keeps up the pace he is at.

At his age and with his productivity, I think 4 years 28-30 million is a very fair deal for Brandon Bass.

Absolutely.  On a team that already has their core set and in tact.  On a team like the C's that needs to build a core, that is too rich.

[PosImpos]

Make a strong run at Dwight. If he can be recruited renounce everyone and sign him. If not, there's two different ways to go in my opinion:

1) Re-sign KG, Allen, Green and Bass. Money under doesn't matter as they all have bird-rights. Align KG and Allen to expire with Pierce so we are positioned to become major players in 2014.

DO we have bird rights on Jeff Green?  Isn't he an unrestricted free agent right now? 

How about Bass?

Yes, we have bird rights on both of them.  My problem with signing Bass is that he is going to be looking for a longterm deal at big money.  The starting point would be 4 years/20 million, and it would likely be closer to 4/25-30 million if he keeps up the pace he is at.

At his age and with his productivity, I think 4 years 28-30 million is a very fair deal for Brandon Bass.

Absolutely.  On a team that already has their core set and in tact.  On a team like the C's that needs to build a core, that is too rich.

Perhaps, but a couple of points:

a) we need to spend the money on somebody, so we might as well spend it on somebody already here, who we know can be productive in the system. 

b) we know he is willing to play a bench role and can thrive in one, so him wanting to take more minutes over a younger big man we want to develop shouldn't be an issue, either.

c) because he's young and productive, it shouldn't be hard to move him if and when we want to do so. 

[SHAQATTACK]

I think DA will give it his best shot for DH, for what its worth or whatever it might be , like he did with CP3 long as he any kind of hope , I think he saves his assets till DH 's next move is finalized.

I would try and keep Bass , unless he wants stupid money..  He likes where he is at and is a team player with heart.  He has the right work ethic.

KG and Ray gotta come back as blue light Kmart specials. Ray is just plain old for an NBA player.  

I hope Danny gets to sign several top college player.

I'll take LBJ on our team... ...to go with DH 

[Chris]

Make a strong run at Dwight. If he can be recruited renounce everyone and sign him. If not, there's two different ways to go in my opinion:

1) Re-sign KG, Allen, Green and Bass. Money under doesn't matter as they all have bird-rights. Align KG and Allen to expire with Pierce so we are positioned to become major players in 2014.

DO we have bird rights on Jeff Green?  Isn't he an unrestricted free agent right now? 

How about Bass?

Yes, we have bird rights on both of them.  My problem with signing Bass is that he is going to be looking for a longterm deal at big money.  The starting point would be 4 years/20 million, and it would likely be closer to 4/25-30 million if he keeps up the pace he is at.

At his age and with his productivity, I think 4 years 28-30 million is a very fair deal for Brandon Bass.

Absolutely.  On a team that already has their core set and in tact.  On a team like the C's that needs to build a core, that is too rich.

Perhaps, but a couple of points:

a) we need to spend the money on somebody, so we might as well spend it on somebody already here, who we know can be productive in the system. 

b) we know he is willing to play a bench role and can thrive in one, so him wanting to take more minutes over a younger big man we want to develop shouldn't be an issue, either.

c) because he's young and productive, it shouldn't be hard to move him if and when we want to do so. 

To answer your responses:

1. Yes, we have to spend the money.  However, we do not need to sign longterm deals.  Given that we currently have one Core player going forward, I think we should be focussing our assets on adding to that Core, rather than paying a premium for bench players.  If we cannot find a core player for that cap space this summer, then we are better off signing someone to a short term deal with that salary spot, so we can then try again to find a bigger impact player with that cap space in the future.

2. I could care less about this, and I am not even sure its true.  He is willing to quietly take a bench role playing behind a hall of famer.  That doesn't mean he would do the same thing for someone less proven.  And again, I don't think it matters.  You don't pay a guy $30 million because he doesn't complain about playing time.

3. He is productive because defenses don't focus on him that much.  On a team without so many talented players, his production might drop a bit.  There is a reason the Magic traded him and the Mavs let him go...and that was when he was on a much more team friendly contract.

I love Bass as a 1 year, 4 million player, but put him on a Big Babyesque contract, and I don't think he is an asset anymore.

[PosImpos]

Make a strong run at Dwight. If he can be recruited renounce everyone and sign him. If not, there's two different ways to go in my opinion:

1) Re-sign KG, Allen, Green and Bass. Money under doesn't matter as they all have bird-rights. Align KG and Allen to expire with Pierce so we are positioned to become major players in 2014.

DO we have bird rights on Jeff Green?  Isn't he an unrestricted free agent right now? 

How about Bass?

Yes, we have bird rights on both of them.  My problem with signing Bass is that he is going to be looking for a longterm deal at big money.  The starting point would be 4 years/20 million, and it would likely be closer to 4/25-30 million if he keeps up the pace he is at.

At his age and with his productivity, I think 4 years 28-30 million is a very fair deal for Brandon Bass.

Absolutely.  On a team that already has their core set and in tact.  On a team like the C's that needs to build a core, that is too rich.

Perhaps, but a couple of points:

a) we need to spend the money on somebody, so we might as well spend it on somebody already here, who we know can be productive in the system. 

b) we know he is willing to play a bench role and can thrive in one, so him wanting to take more minutes over a younger big man we want to develop shouldn't be an issue, either.

c) because he's young and productive, it shouldn't be hard to move him if and when we want to do so. 

To answer your responses:

1. Yes, we have to spend the money.  However, we do not need to sign longterm deals.  Given that we currently have one Core player going forward, I think we should be focussing our assets on adding to that Core, rather than paying a premium for bench players.  If we cannot find a core player for that cap space this summer, then we are better off signing someone to a short term deal with that salary spot, so we can then try again to find a bigger impact player with that cap space in the future.

2. I could care less about this, and I am not even sure its true.  He is willing to quietly take a bench role playing behind a hall of famer.  That doesn't mean he would do the same thing for someone less proven.  And again, I don't think it matters.  You don't pay a guy $30 million because he doesn't complain about playing time.

3. He is productive because defenses don't focus on him that much.  On a team without so many talented players, his production might drop a bit.  There is a reason the Magic traded him and the Mavs let him go...and that was when he was on a much more team friendly contract.

I love Bass as a 1 year, 4 million player, but put him on a Big Babyesque contract, and I don't think he is an asset anymore.

i guess i'm skeptical that we're going to be able to find ways to fill the cap space without giving out multi-year contracts, unless you think it would make sense to give out one year contracts of 5-10 million dollars to players who would normally make half that.  i guess we could do that, but we also wouldn't acquire or develop any assets other than players we draft.

[Casperian]

Rondo
Green (1 year / 6-9 million)
Bass (4 years 30 million)
Free agent center (5-8 million per year 3-4 year deal) --> e.g. Mahinmi, Kaman
Bradley
Moore
JJJ
Stiemsma (minimum)
Marquis (minimum)
Clips pick rookie
Celtics pick rookie (1st round)
Celtics pick rookie (2nd round)
Vet point guard (2-5 million per year short deal) e.g. Goran Dragic / Leandro Barbosa
Vet big man (2-5 million per year short deal) --> e.g. Lou Amundson / Jason Maxiell
Vet wing (2-5 million per year short deal) --> e.g. Pietrus / C.J. Miles

Not that I disagree with this approach (except for the Bass contract), but how long do you think will it take us to be a contender again? Could you list what you see as the most critical points for this strategy to work? I know it´s impossible to predict the future, but there are quite a few unknowns, and I just want to make sure we all know what we´re dealing with here.