Tell me how you'd split up our 25 mil in cap space

[Chris]

and i would sign some other youngish role players to short, reasonable deals,

This is the trap though.  Young, quality players don't sign for short, reasonable deals.  Those are the guys that overpaid, either in money or years. 

Going in to free agency with that mindframe is how you get Travis Outlaw making $7 million per year, Amir Johnson gets 5.5 million per year (and rising), and Josh Childress gets $6 million per year. 

And this is going to be what Danny will be fighting with this summer.  If he misses out on the big names, he is going to have to consider overpaying for the "potential" of guys like that.  Or, signing older guys to shorter deals, so he can still afford the stars when they become available.

[PosImpos]

and i would sign some other youngish role players to short, reasonable deals,

This is the trap though.  Young, quality players don't sign for short, reasonable deals.  Those are the guys that overpaid, either in money or years.  

Going in to free agency with that mindframe is how you get Travis Outlaw making $7 million per year, Amir Johnson gets 5.5 million per year (and rising), and Josh Childress gets $6 million per year.  

And this is going to be what Danny will be fighting with this summer.  If he misses out on the big names, he is going to have to consider overpaying for the "potential" of guys like that.  Or, signing older guys to shorter deals, so he can still afford the stars when they become available.

yeah, that's why i say youngish.

it's the difference between paying for a travis outlaw and instead paying less and fewer years for a mickael pietrus or a chris wilcox.

basically, we're talking about pursuing the same sort of players we've gone after in the past few summers with the minimum, the LLE, or the MLE with the hope of getting them to sign on to chase a ring, and offering them a little bit more and an extra year or two to play for a rebuilding team.

much better than giving a player who just got off his rookie deal a big pay day, for sure.

[Chris]

and i would sign some other youngish role players to short, reasonable deals,

This is the trap though.  Young, quality players don't sign for short, reasonable deals.  Those are the guys that overpaid, either in money or years.  

Going in to free agency with that mindframe is how you get Travis Outlaw making $7 million per year, Amir Johnson gets 5.5 million per year (and rising), and Josh Childress gets $6 million per year.  

And this is going to be what Danny will be fighting with this summer.  If he misses out on the big names, he is going to have to consider overpaying for the "potential" of guys like that.  Or, signing older guys to shorter deals, so he can still afford the stars when they become available.

yeah, that's why i say youngish.

it's the difference between paying for a travis outlaw and instead paying less and fewer years for a mickael pietrus or a chris wilcox.

basically, we're talking about pursuing the same sort of players we've gone after in the past few summers with the minimum, the LLE, or the MLE with the hope of getting them to sign on to chase a ring, and offering them a little bit more and an extra year or two to play for a rebuilding team.

much better than giving a player who just got off his rookie deal a big pay day, for sure.

Ah, I get you.  Although, I still don't necessarily agree.  I think you rarely find guys who can play, are in their prime, and will sign a decent deal like that.  Cheap players who play on short deals are generally either old, or can't play basketball.

Every once in a while you get lucky with a guy like Pietrus.  And, if they can find someone like that, great.  But you strike out more than you hit looking for guys like that.

[Evantime34]

Honestly I don't deere many guys that are worth spending big money on. I bet we make a run at McGee and Hibbert, otherwise we trade with a team looking to pick up cap space to make a run at howard or deron. Most likely I see us resigning ray and kg to one year deals around 5 mm, bringing green back. Adding trip first rounders in a deep draft then rolling from there.

[nickagneta]

First, what is the max you now have to spend to each year?

90% of the cap or 80%.

So if I'm the Celtics and can't sign a top free agent this off season, I do not under any circumstances put into jeopardy future off seasons by trading for or locking up players that are not long term difference making stars.

Next year I don't have to split up $25 million in cap space. Depending on the spending minimum I might only have to spend $15-20 million of it.

If great free agents are not to be had, its one year deals and losing for me. develop Moore, Stiemsma, Bradley, Johnson and the two first rounders and sign a bunch of players that will fill in the gaps. Then if the year after Pierce wants to retire, we amnesty him, and deal with the question of how to deal with $40 million in cap space in a year in which Chris Paul, Monte Ellis, Tyreke Evans, James Harden, Serge Ibaka, Paul Millsap, and others will be available.

[FearTheBeard]

Chandler somehting like 4/32

Anthony Randolph on 3/15

keep the rest and wait for a much better 2013 class

[mmmmm]

Good thread.

I'm not going to be able to add a lot to the many ideas posted here, but it may be useful for folks to look at the FA lists.

Here is the list of players scheduled to become free agents this summer (mind you, some names like Kevin Love are no longer valid because they have resigned already):

http://www.hoopsworld.com/2012-nba-free-agents

It should be noted that local fav Semih Erden will be available and should be cheap. 

And for those who think we may have to hold course (and cap space) for one more year and wait for the 2013 FA market before 'going long', here is the list for 2013:

http://www.hoopsworld.com/2013-nba-free-agents

[CFAN38]

Seeing the money at work is actually kind of disheartening...

Im really torn with how we go about retooling this team. If you look to the past to see what makes up championship teams there are a few differnt fomulas

1.Super Star + elite 2nd player (jordan+pippen, Kobe, Gasol, Stockon,Malone[if not for jordan], Duncan,robinson,

2.Super Star + perfect complimentary players (Dallas,Houston,detriot isiah years)

3.Five could be all-stars (Billups lead pistons)

The Big three celtics where a mix of 1 and 3.


Going forward I think we have to shoot for the very rare option 3. The hardest pieces to get are PG and C. We already have Rondo so I feel our next step should be finding a center who could be a border line allstar in 2-3 years. My choices would be Hibbert, Hawes, Asik ,and Magee in that order. If we can come out of this offseason paying fair market value 9.5-11 mill for one of those young centers I would be happy. After that I would offer the remaining available $ to eric gordon, not likely but we should at least try. When that fails we could then try to get mayo for aroun what memphis is playing TA 3-4 mill. If he excepts split the rest between Bass and Green for no more then 2 year deals.

Rondo
Mayo
Pierce
Bass
Asik/Hawes

Green
Avery
Johnson
Steimsma
Moore
rookie
rookie
  

[manl_lui]

go after any max FA if possible, in our case, try to go after Dwight as hard as we can, if we succeed, attempt to re-sign the big 3 with smaller contracts and other players

if he declines, I say rebuild under the upcoming draft and see if we can trade up to get a better pick...

re-sign any of our remaining big 3 that we didnt use to trade up in pick (lucky if we have all 3) and sign them 1 year at a time, give them money or whatnot, their purpose is to mentor the new high draftees (I highly doubt we can trade up without giving any of our big 3 or Rondo)

[LarBrd33]

In terms of the Celtics free agents ...

I expect Garnett to retire. No interest in re-signing Ray Allen unless Boston is still competing for a title but I don't see how that is possible if Dwight Howard doesn't arrive this summer. So no Ray either.

I am open to signing Jeff Green but I really don't give a [dang] one way or the other.

No interest in giving Bass a multi-year deal. I would let him leave. I would expect Pietrus to leave once the C's title shot is finished with. Go join a true contender. So no to both of them too.

So with your plan you have no intention of keeping Bass, Ray or KG.   

Let me ask you this question then.  If you could get a late 1st rounder for Bass or Ray RIGHT NOW, would you do it?  Are you that optimistic about our playoff chances that you would rather lose them for nothing in a few short months?

[LarBrd33]

Assuming guys like Howard are off the table, the only free agent I am strongly interested in is Spencer Hawes.

I would offer Hawes up to something in the range of 10-12 million per year.  I think he is just coming into his own now that he is growing into his body, and I think he will be a top 5 center in this league.

Then, I would use the rest to consider trades, but if nothing presents itself that made sense, I would try to bring back some combination of KG, Ray, and Green on 1 year deals, to maintain future flexibility, so Danny is able to act when the next star becomes available.

Assuming you blow 10 mil on Hawes...

You now have 15 mil to split amongst KG, Ray and Green.  Are you planning on giving them 5 mil each?  Do you believe they will take 5 mil each?  Letting Bass walk?

I had written this out before, so here is my whole scenario:



Lets say they renounce everyone.  So, essentially they have Rondo (11m), Pierce (16.8m), Bradley (1.6m), Johnson (1.2) million signed (I will also assume Bass opts out).

So, that's 30.6 million spoken for.  They would then have 2 first round picks.  Lets say one mid first rounder (1.4m cap hold), one late first rounder (1m cap hold).  That is 6 roster spots and $33 million spoken for.  They would need another 7 minimum cap holds (we will round it to .5m per cap hold), putting them at $36.5 million.  With a cap of $60 million, that gives them 23.5 million to work with to fill out the roster.

Lets say they paid a center $11.5 million (with 4.5% raises, that comes out to approximately a 4 year/$50 million deal).  So, you add that to the salary and you have 48m...subtract .5 million for the roster spot they opened up and they are at 47.5 million with 7 guys...so $12.5 million remaining.

Sign KG and Ray to deals of $6 million each (or substitute Green for one of them, if he wants to sign a 1 year prove it deal).  That leaves you with .5 remaining...plus the 2 minimum cap holds you gain back, so you have 1.5 million and 9 spots filled.  Obviously it is a huge leap to suggest Ray and KG would take those contracts.  But there is a possibility they will take a hometown discount to stay here...and there is a chance its more than they would get per year on the open market anyways, since most of the teams they would consider going to would be over the cap and would only have the MLE to offer.  And they might be fine going year to year at this point in their careers.

Now you can use $2 million to sign another player to get up to the cap (the $1.5 million, I mentioned before, plus another .5 million that is freed up because you are eliminating another roster cap hold).  So, that puts you right at the cap with 10 spots filled.

Use the "space exception" to sign another player for $2.5 million (maybe Pietrus?).  Then fill out the roster with minimum salaried players.

So, in this scenario, you are able to pay decent market value for a top 10 center on the free agent market.  You would likely have to let Green walk, unless he really wants to come back and prove himself on the 2.5m exception...although I think he would get a better offer elsewhere.  You pay KG and Ray a reasonable salary given what they would make per year on the open market, but are still getting a bit of a bargain, spurred on by their desire to stay with the organization that has been loyal to them, and in the city they seem pretty happy in (at least Ray...I have no idea with KG).  And you are able to field a potentially better roster next year, with a second building block next to Rondo, while keeping max cap room for 2013 to try again to add the star they need.

Long winded, but basically what you're saying is...

11.5 mil for a center (a Chris Kaman for example)
6 mil for Ray (huge leap he'll take it)
6 mil for KG (huge leap he'll take it)

And you are letting Jeff Green and Bass walk. Filling out the rest of the roster with close to vet min contracts (Pietrus for example).


So essentially your plan is to keep our 7-9 team intact... age the big 3 another year... and replace Bass with Chris Kaman.  Yes?

Follow-up question:  If your master plan is to replace Bass with Chris Kaman, would you consider trading Bass, Jermaine O'Neal and Wilcox for Kaman RIGHT NOW?... if not... why not?

One clarification.  I am not setting aside 11.5 million for a center.  I am setting aside that money for Hawes.  I would not give that to any other free agent center (other than Howard) this summer.

I think Hawes is the only non-superstar free agent that is worth going well over the MLE for next summer.  If you can't get him, I would be trying to use the cap space via trades and/or carrying it over.

And the whole idea of this is not to bring back the same roster.  It is to not give away the cap space for guys who are not real core players going forward.  So, unless you love someone, then fill in the spot with short term contracts (it just so happens that KG and Allen might be the best available short term contract guys out there), so you can then get the next superstar when they become available, either via free agency or trade.

Still... your entire plan revolves around Ray and KG taking incredible pay cuts (6 mil each), letting Jeff Green walk and replacing Brandon Bass with Spencer Hawes.  Right?

[LarBrd33]

i would re-sign some of our younger role players to reasonable deals, and i would sign some other youngish role players to short, reasonable deals, and then i would play our youngsters a lot.

no need to try to rebuild on the fly with this free agent market, and bringing back ray or KG doesn't make much sense either.

i'd also look to trade pierce to a team where he has a chance to win something of significance in his last few years in the league.


as i posted in another thread:

Rondo
Green (1 year / 6-9 million)
Bass (4 years 30 million)
Free agent center (5-8 million per year 3-4 year deal) --> e.g. Mahinmi, Kaman
Bradley
Moore
JJJ
Stiemsma (minimum)
Marquis (minimum)
Clips pick rookie
Celtics pick rookie (1st round)
Celtics pick rookie (2nd round)
Vet point guard (2-5 million per year short deal) e.g. Goran Dragic / Leandro Barbosa
Vet big man (2-5 million per year short deal) --> e.g. Lou Amundson / Jason Maxiell
Vet wing (2-5 million per year short deal) --> e.g. Pietrus / C.J. Miles

First reasonable plan I've seen.  This is the "blow it up" plan where you'd try to get cap space and a draft pick for Pierce... and you'd attempt to get an expiring contract and a draft pick for Ray.  It's a total rebuild.  TP for you, sir.

[LarBrd33]

First, what is the max you now have to spend to each year?

90% of the cap or 80%.

So if I'm the Celtics and can't sign a top free agent this off season, I do not under any circumstances put into jeopardy future off seasons by trading for or locking up players that are not long term difference making stars.

Next year I don't have to split up $25 million in cap space. Depending on the spending minimum I might only have to spend $15-20 million of it.

If great free agents are not to be had, its one year deals and losing for me. develop Moore, Stiemsma, Bradley, Johnson and the two first rounders and sign a bunch of players that will fill in the gaps. Then if the year after Pierce wants to retire, we amnesty him, and deal with the question of how to deal with $40 million in cap space in a year in which Chris Paul, Monte Ellis, Tyreke Evans, James Harden, Serge Ibaka, Paul Millsap, and others will be available.

Same question to you.  Your plan doesn't seem to involve bringing back Ray or KG.  WOuld you trade Ray now for a late 1st rounder if you could?

To Chicago for CJ Miles and Korver (neither are guaranteed next year) + a late 1st rounder

or

To Utah for their 10.8 mil trade exception (from the Okur deal) + a late 1st rounder

?

[LarBrd33]

Chandler somehting like 4/32

Anthony Randolph on 3/15

keep the rest and wait for a much better 2013 class

Your plan is:  
Chandler = 8 mil
Randolph = 5 mil
... that leaves 12 million

What do you mean by "keep the rest"?   What are you doing with that final 12 mil?  YOu still have Jeff Green, KG, Ray and Bass to worry about.  THey aren't all taking 3 million dollars each.  Who are you saying goodbye to?

[PosImpos]

Chandler somehting like 4/32

Anthony Randolph on 3/15

keep the rest and wait for a much better 2013 class

Wilson Chandler will probably get more than that from some desperate team.

Anthony Randolph isn't worth that much.