Danny's interest in David West is another reason to be concerned with him

[birdbrady]

Since it is now clear this team is declining, we as fans are really going to have to accept the rebuilding years ahead.  And Danny is obviously going to be the guy.

I started out as a huge fan of Ainge early on.  Maybe because he seemed to be the only guy in the media back in 2002 that had Amare Stoudemire pegged.  I just had this sense that he had a good eye for talent.  And after Chris Wallace, Rick Pitino, and ML Carr picking lottery bust after lottery bust after lottery bust - I thought Ainge was EXACTLY what we needed.  Especially since he was taking over a 2003 Celtics team, which was while a second round playoff team, a complete fraud of a roster that had a gigantic payroll with a lot of dead weight on it.  That team HAD TO rebuild.

From 03-07, Ainge was getting killed in Boston.  But I saw a method to his madness, and his draft selections were mostly solid.  And of all the people that complained about his trades - in almost all of the trades he was making, he was coming away with a pick or two and putting them to good use.  (His biggest one was getting a Minnesota pick in the Davis-Wally swap.  Everyone forgets this but we sent this pick back to Minnesota in the KG trade.  That pick was due to become unprotected in 2009.  If we still had it - it would have been a gem.)  Finally, as we all know, Ainge's moves panned out as we finally had enough pieces to acquire two Hall of Famers and we went on to win the title and have a nice little run from 08-11.

However, since 08, for whatever reasons - Ainge hasn't been as sharp.  After the 07 off-season when he picked up House and Posey.  He failed to acquire any true impact veterans.  His best was Shaq, which at the end of the day, ended up screwing us.  Because we all thought having a healthy Shaq was best for the team.  Problem was, come playoff time - we never got a healthy Shaq.  His draft choices have ALL been whiffs.  We haven't added any youth to this roster at all.  And for those who say "Well he's picking late."  But need I remind people that Delonte West, Tony Allen, Ryan Gomes, Leon Powe, and Big Baby were ALL late picks.  Hell, even Big AL was the 14th pick.  Just 5 spots ahead where Ainge picked Avery Bradley in 2010.  I'm not asking for stars from pick 20 on -- but we couldn't come away with one freaking rotation player to help out when this team was contending from 08-11?

So, as we go into rebuilding - I think its time we question Danny.  And David West, to me kind of adds to his list.  And its another list people should be concerned with.  It's the moves Danny DIDN'T make.  And these moves would have been a disaster had they been made.  What if Robert Swift (Danny's absolute favorite player ever coming out of any draft when he was here) was available at 14 back in the 04 draft when we came away with AL (the center piece to get KG)? In 06, Danny never considered Brandon Roy at all.  If we were ever going to use that pick.  It was going to be Randy Foye - who has had a pathetic NBA career. What if Corey Maggette chose to come here in 2009 - and saddled us with a nasty, and long contract that was going to pay him 6M a season? And how about in 2010 -- what if GS accepted Ray and picks for Monta Ellis at the deadline?! And of course, now with David West.  What was the infatuation with him? He was just coming off ACL surgery, Danny.  You know how many NBA careers have gone up in flames with that operation? Even in the NFL - they come back.  The NBA for whatever reason, players just die.  What if Danny had us saddled with a David West contract - 3 years at 9M annually? Did Danny really believe we were a David West away from contending for a title this season?  West and Bass would have been redundant.  West, who isn't putting up that great of numbers starting for a good Indiana team - would have been at a position with KG and Bass.  He'd be averaging like 7 pts, 5 rebounds a game here and the fans would be livid.

All this stuff, has me VERY jittery about rebuilding.  Ainge is starting to look like a complete hit or miss GM.  Is he the same guy since Morey left the franchise to become Houston's GM? What about his heart attack? Fair or unfair that is a question that comes into play.  If Danny keeps missing - this franchise won't get back where it needs to be.

[33_Larry Legend_33]

Funny, but Larry Bird would strongly disagree with you...

[PosImpos]

You can't judge how a player would have impacted the Celtics by the way they've performed elsewhere.

[Roy H.]

I understand your argument, but I disagree with it.

Yes, we're on the cusp of a lot of cap space.  I think Danny's philosophy is that he doesn't want to sacrifice that cap space unless 1) it puts the team in a significantly better position long term; or 2) it gives us a truly legitimate shot at a championship.

Clearly, Danny believed that adding David West would have given us a very good shot at a championship; thus, the sacrifice in potential cap space would have been worth it.

Seriously, this is the roster Danny was looking at:

KG / Wilcox / Stiemmsma
West / Bass / Johnson
Pierce / Green / (Pietrus)
Ray / Marquis / Moore
Rondo / Dooling / Bradley

Is there anybody who doesn't think that would be a very strong championship contender?  On paper, that's the best or second best team in the NBA.  That's the type of roster worth sacrificing some cap space for.

(That's without even considering that West would have had around 2 years, $19 million left on his deal.  That's an easily traded contract.)

[PosImpos]

I understand your argument, but I disagree with it.

Yes, we're on the cusp of a lot of cap space.  I think Danny's philosophy is that he doesn't want to sacrifice that cap space unless 1) it puts the team in a significantly better position long term; or 2) it gives us a truly legitimate shot at a championship.

Clearly, Danny believed that adding David West would have given us a very good shot at a championship; thus, the sacrifice in potential cap space would have been worth it.

Seriously, this is the roster Danny was looking at:

KG / Wilcox / Stiemmsma
West / Bass / Johnson
Pierce / Green / (Pietrus)
Ray / Marquis / Moore
Rondo / Dooling / Bradley

Is there anybody who doesn't think that would be a very strong championship contender?  On paper, that's the best or second best team in the NBA.  That's the type of roster worth sacrificing some cap space for.

(That's without even considering that West would have had around 2 years, $19 million left on his deal.  That's an easily traded contract.)

right.  you can't look at West as a player in a vacuum; you have to look at how his skillset would have fit in our roster and the kind of impact he could have had as a result.  david west's ability to score inside would have filled a huge need for this team.

[GranTur]

I disagree. Danny has done a spectacular job contending every year for a championship while balancing salaries for the future.

If Danny didn't plan for 2012, we would sink into 6-8 years of garbage. The Celtics are in prime position to rebuild a roster for contention on the fly this summer.

I have faith in Danny and I've loved almost everything he has done. Of course in retrospect some things didn't work out, but you don't make moves "in retrospect."

[PosImpos]

I disagree. Danny has done a spectacular job contending every year for a championship while balancing salaries for the future.

If Danny didn't plan for 2012, we would sink into 6-8 years of garbage. The Celtics are in prime position to rebuild a roster for contention on the fly this summer.

I have faith in Danny and I've loved almost everything he has done. Of course in retrospect some things didn't work out, but you don't make moves "in retrospect."

im not so sure how the Celtics are supposed to rebuild on the fly this summer.  have you looked at the list of free agents for this summer?  very unlikely any of the big names (D-Will, Howard) will be on the table for the Celtics.  otherwise, there's not much.

i agree that Danny has done all that can be expected so far to put the Celtics in the position to rebuild as quickly as possible, but I'm not so sure we won't get 6-8 years of garbage anyway.  at best, i think we're talking about 2-4 years of garbage at least.

[Neurotic Guy]

Since it is now clear this team is declining, we as fans are really going to have to accept the rebuilding years ahead.  And Danny is obviously going to be the guy.

You lost me at "since".

I'm waiting about 25 games before I have the clarity you already have.  Even if they are not contenders as constructed, they could be one smart trade away.  It is likely that rebuild is just around the corner, but I haven't given up on this season after 2 weeks.

[GranTur]

I disagree. Danny has done a spectacular job contending every year for a championship while balancing salaries for the future.

If Danny didn't plan for 2012, we would sink into 6-8 years of garbage. The Celtics are in prime position to rebuild a roster for contention on the fly this summer.

I have faith in Danny and I've loved almost everything he has done. Of course in retrospect some things didn't work out, but you don't make moves "in retrospect."

im not so sure how the Celtics are supposed to rebuild on the fly this summer.  have you looked at the list of free agents for this summer?  very unlikely any of the big names (D-Will, Howard) will be on the table for the Celtics.  otherwise, there's not much.

i agree that Danny has done all that can be expected so far to put the Celtics in the position to rebuild as quickly as possible, but I'm not so sure we won't get 6-8 years of garbage anyway.  at best, i think we're talking about 2-4 years of garbage at least.

The Celtics have an excellent chance to sign Dwight or Love. The Celtics are the best team in the NBA with massive cap space next summer. All other contenders can't sign them without a trade that depletes the team.

The Celtics have a lot going for them in the future that can entice one of these two players:

Celtics are a winning organization with a good management/coach. Rondo, Bass, Green. Pierce and Ray have a couple years in them. Add in 2 mid-late first rounders and the outside chance Bradley or JJJ can become a good role player.

I don't see how this doesn't attract Love or Howard. Both have shown the longing for winning.

[birdbrady]

I disagree. Danny has done a spectacular job contending every year for a championship while balancing salaries for the future.

If Danny didn't plan for 2012, we would sink into 6-8 years of garbage. The Celtics are in prime position to rebuild a roster for contention on the fly this summer.

I have faith in Danny and I've loved almost everything he has done. Of course in retrospect some things didn't work out, but you don't make moves "in retrospect."

6-8 years of garbage? If that happened, Danny wouldn't have a job.  No matter how much he gets along with Wyc and Pags.

We built a championship team in five years with one semi-franchise player but with a roster full of overpaid veterans, no young talent, no future draft choices except ours, no salary cap flexibility, stuck in absolute mediocrity; where we were never bad enough to get a high draft choice, and a very unattractive place for free agents.  Point being - drafting is the key.  If you hit on draft picks it is almost impossible with salary cap space or no salary cap space to have "6-8 years of garbage" as  you suggested.

And while you don't make moves in retrospect, you certainly critique them.  Danny is batting below the Mendoza Line with his moves since winning back in '08.

[birdbrady]

I understand your argument, but I disagree with it.

Yes, we're on the cusp of a lot of cap space.  I think Danny's philosophy is that he doesn't want to sacrifice that cap space unless 1) it puts the team in a significantly better position long term; or 2) it gives us a truly legitimate shot at a championship.

Clearly, Danny believed that adding David West would have given us a very good shot at a championship; thus, the sacrifice in potential cap space would have been worth it.

Seriously, this is the roster Danny was looking at:

KG / Wilcox / Stiemmsma
West / Bass / Johnson
Pierce / Green / (Pietrus)
Ray / Marquis / Moore
Rondo / Dooling / Bradley

Is there anybody who doesn't think that would be a very strong championship contender?  On paper, that's the best or second best team in the NBA.  That's the type of roster worth sacrificing some cap space for.

(That's without even considering that West would have had around 2 years, $19 million left on his deal.  That's an easily traded contract.)

I'm one that doesn't consider that a strong championship contender.  West isn't an impact player anymore.  With ACL surgery, and being an old 31 - he's just a role player.  Just in Celtics players alone - Al Jefferson was never the same after he tore his ACL.  Vitaly Potapenko went from serviceable backup center to out of the league once his big contract ended.  It just doesn't seem to work out in the NBA.

West can be far more of an important piece to the offense in Indy, and offensively he's struggling mightily.  Here he'd get less looks on the offensive end, and would be redundant with Bass.  He wouldn't even be finishing games.

[Moranis]

I disagree. Danny has done a spectacular job contending every year for a championship while balancing salaries for the future.

If Danny didn't plan for 2012, we would sink into 6-8 years of garbage. The Celtics are in prime position to rebuild a roster for contention on the fly this summer.

I have faith in Danny and I've loved almost everything he has done. Of course in retrospect some things didn't work out, but you don't make moves "in retrospect."

im not so sure how the Celtics are supposed to rebuild on the fly this summer.  have you looked at the list of free agents for this summer?  very unlikely any of the big names (D-Will, Howard) will be on the table for the Celtics.  otherwise, there's not much.

i agree that Danny has done all that can be expected so far to put the Celtics in the position to rebuild as quickly as possible, but I'm not so sure we won't get 6-8 years of garbage anyway.  at best, i think we're talking about 2-4 years of garbage at least.

The Celtics have an excellent chance to sign Dwight or Love. The Celtics are the best team in the NBA with massive cap space next summer. All other contenders can't sign them without a trade that depletes the team.

The Celtics have a lot going for them in the future that can entice one of these two players:

Celtics are a winning organization with a good management/coach. Rondo, Bass, Green. Pierce and Ray have a couple years in them. Add in 2 mid-late first rounders and the outside chance Bradley or JJJ can become a good role player.

I don't see how this doesn't attract Love or Howard. Both have shown the longing for winning.

To call the Celtics a contender next summer is a huge stretch.  From a basketball standpoint, Indiana has cap space and is a much better position.  So is New Orleans, so is New Jersey (if Williams stays).  Heck even teams like Sacramento have a better shot at being a contender than the Celtics do going forward.  

Boston will not sign a premier free agent.  It just isn't going to happen.

[Moranis]

I understand your argument, but I disagree with it.

Yes, we're on the cusp of a lot of cap space.  I think Danny's philosophy is that he doesn't want to sacrifice that cap space unless 1) it puts the team in a significantly better position long term; or 2) it gives us a truly legitimate shot at a championship.

Clearly, Danny believed that adding David West would have given us a very good shot at a championship; thus, the sacrifice in potential cap space would have been worth it.

Seriously, this is the roster Danny was looking at:

KG / Wilcox / Stiemmsma
West / Bass / Johnson
Pierce / Green / (Pietrus)
Ray / Marquis / Moore
Rondo / Dooling / Bradley

Is there anybody who doesn't think that would be a very strong championship contender?  On paper, that's the best or second best team in the NBA.  That's the type of roster worth sacrificing some cap space for.

(That's without even considering that West would have had around 2 years, $19 million left on his deal.  That's an easily traded contract.)

I'm one that doesn't consider that a strong championship contender.  West isn't an impact player anymore.  With ACL surgery, and being an old 31 - he's just a role player.  Just in Celtics players alone - Al Jefferson was never the same after he tore his ACL.  Vitaly Potapenko went from serviceable backup center to out of the league once his big contract ended.  It just doesn't seem to work out in the NBA.

West can be far more of an important piece to the offense in Indy, and offensively he's struggling mightily.  Here he'd get less looks on the offensive end, and would be redundant with Bass.  He wouldn't even be finishing games.

I think the Celtics with West would be a pretty decent contender more on the level of the Bulls.  Heat would still be a heavy favorite, but the Celtics would at least be in the mix.  They are not now.

West has struggled with his shot a bit, but he is still getting to the line a decent amount and is rebounding pretty well.  10/7 a game in 28 minutes isn't bad for someone that missed essentially the entire training camp and is coming back from an injury.  Put West on the Celtics and it helps a great deal with the size problem Boston has had by moving O'Neal to the bench.

[Who]

David West was a risk with his injury situation but it was a risk worth taking.

[birdbrady]

I disagree. Danny has done a spectacular job contending every year for a championship while balancing salaries for the future.

If Danny didn't plan for 2012, we would sink into 6-8 years of garbage. The Celtics are in prime position to rebuild a roster for contention on the fly this summer.

I have faith in Danny and I've loved almost everything he has done. Of course in retrospect some things didn't work out, but you don't make moves "in retrospect."

im not so sure how the Celtics are supposed to rebuild on the fly this summer.  have you looked at the list of free agents for this summer?  very unlikely any of the big names (D-Will, Howard) will be on the table for the Celtics.  otherwise, there's not much.

i agree that Danny has done all that can be expected so far to put the Celtics in the position to rebuild as quickly as possible, but I'm not so sure we won't get 6-8 years of garbage anyway.  at best, i think we're talking about 2-4 years of garbage at least.

The Celtics have an excellent chance to sign Dwight or Love. The Celtics are the best team in the NBA with massive cap space next summer. All other contenders can't sign them without a trade that depletes the team.

The Celtics have a lot going for them in the future that can entice one of these two players:

Celtics are a winning organization with a good management/coach. Rondo, Bass, Green. Pierce and Ray have a couple years in them. Add in 2 mid-late first rounders and the outside chance Bradley or JJJ can become a good role player.

I don't see how this doesn't attract Love or Howard. Both have shown the longing for winning.

To call the Celtics a contender next summer is a huge stretch.  From a basketball standpoint, Indiana has cap space and is a much better position.  So is New Orleans, so is New Jersey (if Williams stays).  Heck even teams like Sacramento have a better shot at being a contender than the Celtics do going forward.  

Boston will not sign a premier free agent.  It just isn't going to happen.

Yet New Orleans, New Jersey, Sacramento, and Minnesota will? Huh?

Boston won't sign a premier free agent because there's only one on the market: Dwight.  And he isn't coming here.