Deron Williams already unhappy in New Jersey?(Rumor)

[indeedproceed]

The C's will have a much better supporting cast than Dallas will. PP is equivalent to Dirk(Dirk is slightly better).

Paul Pierce is NOT equivalent to Dirk.  Come on now.

I don't agree with you Pos.  I think Dirk is probably slightly better because he is just so hard to match up with, but Pierce is a better play maker and is definitely a better defender.  Dirk is no defender.

Dirk earned some big points last year for being so clutch to me, but I think it's ridiculous how over inflated it became with the comparions to Larry Bird.  Dirk is no Larry Bird.  He doesn't have the over all skillset on offense alone, nevermind that he is, again, no defender.

True: Dirk is no Larry Bird

True: Dirk is better than Paul Pierce.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=nowitdi01&y1=2011&p2=piercpa01&y2=2011

In 11-12, Dirk shot better, he rebounded better, he got to the line more, he scored more frequently, and he was the best player on a world champion.

dont forget Dirk might be the very worst defender at his position ever

That's a joke, right?

[Fafnir]

The C's will have a much better supporting cast than Dallas will. PP is equivalent to Dirk(Dirk is slightly better).

Paul Pierce is NOT equivalent to Dirk.  Come on now.

I don't agree with you Pos.  I think Dirk is probably slightly better because he is just so hard to match up with, but Pierce is a better play maker and is definitely a better defender.  Dirk is no defender.

Dirk earned some big points last year for being so clutch to me, but I think it's ridiculous how over inflated it became with the comparions to Larry Bird.  Dirk is no Larry Bird.  He doesn't have the over all skillset on offense alone, nevermind that he is, again, no defender.

True: Dirk is no Larry Bird

True: Dirk is better than Paul Pierce.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=nowitdi01&y1=2011&p2=piercpa01&y2=2011

In 11-12, Dirk shot better, he rebounded better, he got to the line more, he scored more frequently, and he was the best player on a world champion.

dont forget Dirk might be the very worst defender at his position ever

That's a joke, right?

Dirk is a better player than Pierce right now, his game has held up better in part because of his size and he's also a little younger. He's still a dominant offensive force, meanwhile Pierce has game is more well rounded but lapsed into just "very good".

Two massive errors in your post IP, Dirk didn't rebound better than Pierce. Position matters for rebounds, Pierce is a positive force for the team on the boards at SF. Dirk plays PF/C and actively hurts his team with his lack of rebounding.

Also he didn't actually shoot better! Pierce's TS% was .620 and his eFG% was .551. Dirk ended up with TS% .612 and eFG% of .545.

What Dirk did better was anchor an entire offense based on his abilities, Pierce for all his talents at best shared that duty with Rondo.

[Snakehead]

The C's will have a much better supporting cast than Dallas will. PP is equivalent to Dirk(Dirk is slightly better).

Paul Pierce is NOT equivalent to Dirk.  Come on now.

I don't agree with you Pos.  I think Dirk is probably slightly better because he is just so hard to match up with, but Pierce is a better play maker and is definitely a better defender.  Dirk is no defender.

Dirk earned some big points last year for being so clutch to me, but I think it's ridiculous how over inflated it became with the comparions to Larry Bird.  Dirk is no Larry Bird.  He doesn't have the over all skillset on offense alone, nevermind that he is, again, no defender.

True: Dirk is no Larry Bird

True: Dirk is better than Paul Pierce.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=nowitdi01&y1=2011&p2=piercpa01&y2=2011

In 11-12, Dirk shot better, he rebounded better, he got to the line more, he scored more frequently, and he was the best player on a world champion.

dont forget Dirk might be the very worst defender at his position ever

That's a joke, right?

There are two sides to the ball and Dirk is no defender.  I don't think Pierce is that great of a defender, but he is good, certainly better than Dirk is.  Not the worst ever at his position but yes, no defender.

Last year, Pierce's oppsoition at SF put up 10.9 in PER and 18 PPG, while Dirk's put up 15.7 at PF and 21 PPG.  And that's with Chandler helping Dirk out, the year before it was 17 PER against Dirk by opposing PFs.

Those stats, plus the good ol eye test.  Defense matter and I think Pierce is much better there than Dirk is.  You can't discount it.

As I said I think Dirk is probably better but it's not by that much.  It's mainly that at 7ft he is such a match up nightmare, and if we are looking at Howard's thinking Nowitzki is a perfect frontcourt partner, so that makes sense.

And the world champion part, you can't take that away but I think we are seeing with Dallas this year how important Chandler really was to that run.  Without him they are the same offensive team that could never win a championship.

[indeedproceed]

You got anymore edits for me there Faf or you about done?

I cannot believe Dirk ended up with a better TS%. I looked at his basic FG% (better), his 3pt% (better), and his free-throw percentage (better), and he got to the line more often!

I guess because Pierce shot more 3's?
 
The rebounding thing I don't mind debating a bit. I don't think "dirk actively hurt his team's rebounding" is really an accurate depiction of his rebounding.

[indeedproceed]

The C's will have a much better supporting cast than Dallas will. PP is equivalent to Dirk(Dirk is slightly better).

Paul Pierce is NOT equivalent to Dirk.  Come on now.

I don't agree with you Pos.  I think Dirk is probably slightly better because he is just so hard to match up with, but Pierce is a better play maker and is definitely a better defender.  Dirk is no defender.

Dirk earned some big points last year for being so clutch to me, but I think it's ridiculous how over inflated it became with the comparions to Larry Bird.  Dirk is no Larry Bird.  He doesn't have the over all skillset on offense alone, nevermind that he is, again, no defender.

True: Dirk is no Larry Bird

True: Dirk is better than Paul Pierce.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=nowitdi01&y1=2011&p2=piercpa01&y2=2011

In 11-12, Dirk shot better, he rebounded better, he got to the line more, he scored more frequently, and he was the best player on a world champion.

dont forget Dirk might be the very worst defender at his position ever

That's a joke, right?

There are two sides to the ball and Dirk is no defender.  I don't think Pierce is that great of a defender, but he is good, certainly better than Dirk is.  Not the worst ever at his position but yes, no defender.

Last year, Pierce's oppsoition at SF put up 10.9 in PER and 18 PPG, while Dirk's put up 15.7 at PF and 21 PPG.  And that's with Chandler helping Dirk out, the year before it was 17 PER against Dirk by opposing PFs.

Those stats, plus the good ol eye test.  Defense matter and I think Pierce is much better there than Dirk is.  You can't discount it.

As I said I think Dirk is probably better but it's not by that much.  It's mainly that at 7ft he is such a match up nightmare, and if we are looking at Howard's thinking Nowitzki is a perfect frontcourt partner, so that makes sense.

And the world champion part, you can't take that away but I think we are seeing with Dallas this year how important Chandler really was to that run.  Without him they are the same offensive team that could never win a championship.

I'm not discounting that Pierce is the better defender, I'm not discounting that Chandler mattered a lot to Dallas, I am saying, Dirk is the better player. Fafnir did a pretty good job pronouncing it.

What Dirk did better was anchor an entire offense based on his abilities, Pierce for all his talents at best shared that duty with Rondo.

Now if Fafnir just added "World Champion" right before the word 'Offense' there, I think it sums it up well.

[Snakehead]

The C's will have a much better supporting cast than Dallas will. PP is equivalent to Dirk(Dirk is slightly better).

Paul Pierce is NOT equivalent to Dirk.  Come on now.

I don't agree with you Pos.  I think Dirk is probably slightly better because he is just so hard to match up with, but Pierce is a better play maker and is definitely a better defender.  Dirk is no defender.

Dirk earned some big points last year for being so clutch to me, but I think it's ridiculous how over inflated it became with the comparions to Larry Bird.  Dirk is no Larry Bird.  He doesn't have the over all skillset on offense alone, nevermind that he is, again, no defender.

True: Dirk is no Larry Bird

True: Dirk is better than Paul Pierce.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=nowitdi01&y1=2011&p2=piercpa01&y2=2011

In 11-12, Dirk shot better, he rebounded better, he got to the line more, he scored more frequently, and he was the best player on a world champion.

dont forget Dirk might be the very worst defender at his position ever

That's a joke, right?

There are two sides to the ball and Dirk is no defender.  I don't think Pierce is that great of a defender, but he is good, certainly better than Dirk is.  Not the worst ever at his position but yes, no defender.

Last year, Pierce's oppsoition at SF put up 10.9 in PER and 18 PPG, while Dirk's put up 15.7 at PF and 21 PPG.  And that's with Chandler helping Dirk out, the year before it was 17 PER against Dirk by opposing PFs.

Those stats, plus the good ol eye test.  Defense matter and I think Pierce is much better there than Dirk is.  You can't discount it.

As I said I think Dirk is probably better but it's not by that much.  It's mainly that at 7ft he is such a match up nightmare, and if we are looking at Howard's thinking Nowitzki is a perfect frontcourt partner, so that makes sense.

And the world champion part, you can't take that away but I think we are seeing with Dallas this year how important Chandler really was to that run.  Without him they are the same offensive team that could never win a championship.

I'm not discounting that Pierce is the better defender, I'm not discounting that Chandler mattered a lot to Dallas, I am saying, Dirk is the better player. Fafnir did a pretty good job pronouncing it.

What Dirk did better was anchor an entire offense based on his abilities, Pierce for all his talents at best shared that duty with Rondo.

Now if Fafnir just added "World Champion" right before the word 'Offense' there, I think it sums it up well.

That's fair.  As I said in my post I think Dirk is better, but I thought you were siding with Pos when he acted as if suggesting they are equal or close is ridiculous.  I don't think it is at all, I think they are quite close.

[Kane3387]

A roommate of mine in college was a huge Dallas Fan. During the run through 2008 we had many arguments as to who was better? Dirk or Pierce? Dirk or KG? Up until last year I could get him in any argument whether it was presently or career wise. I can still hold my own and argue the careers of both Pierce and KG are better then Dirks. Kg is definitely easier to argue there, but there is no longer any argument that Dirk is better presently then KG or Pierce.

[Kane3387]

I would do the trade of Rondo for D Will. It's the same premise as the CP3 trade. Any team with Deron Williams on it will be attractive to Dwight Howard.

[BballTim]

The C's will have a much better supporting cast than Dallas will. PP is equivalent to Dirk(Dirk is slightly better).

Paul Pierce is NOT equivalent to Dirk.  Come on now.

I don't agree with you Pos.  I think Dirk is probably slightly better because he is just so hard to match up with, but Pierce is a better play maker and is definitely a better defender.  Dirk is no defender.

Dirk earned some big points last year for being so clutch to me, but I think it's ridiculous how over inflated it became with the comparions to Larry Bird.  Dirk is no Larry Bird.  He doesn't have the over all skillset on offense alone, nevermind that he is, again, no defender.

True: Dirk is no Larry Bird

True: Dirk is better than Paul Pierce.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=nowitdi01&y1=2011&p2=piercpa01&y2=2011

In 11-12, Dirk shot better, he rebounded better, he got to the line more, he scored more frequently, and he was the best player on a world champion.
 

  You have to consider the fact that PP would be scoring more if he had different teammates. Dirk probably is a little better, but PP is clearly capable of scoring more than the 18-19 a game he puts up.

[chenaren]

Hell no. Deron is overrated. We got Rondo for 11M per year and you want to trade him for Deron?  

[chenaren]

I really don't consider Deron as an upgrade on PG, and he'll definitely get a bigger contract than Rondo. Rondo is being underrated everywhere, including this CelticsBlog forum.

[PosImpos]

I never said Dirk was Larry Bird.  That's a pretty lame straw-man.


2010-2011 Paul Pierce could not have carried a team through four straight playoff series, scoring all of the key buckets down the stretch in the fourth quarter.

Dirk did that last summer.

Now, if you want to argue whether or not Pierce was better in the spring / summer of '08, then we can have that discussion, but I just don't see how there can be any question of whether Dirk is the better player right now.

Look at the problems the Celtics have had scoring in the 4th quarter for the last few years and then you look at how Dirk was automatic in the 4th quarter throughout the playoffs last spring -- that's why the suggestion that Pierce is equal to or better than Dirk is ridiculous to me.  

Dirk can consistently score 1-on-1 against anybody in the league at the most high-pressure moment of any game.  Pierce is just not capable of doing that at this point in his career -- especially if he were the clear-cut primary offensive option of his team.

[Fafnir]

You got anymore edits for me there Faf or you about done?

I cannot believe Dirk ended up with a better TS%. I looked at his basic FG% (better), his 3pt% (better), and his free-throw percentage (better), and he got to the line more often!

I guess because Pierce shot more 3's?
 
The rebounding thing I don't mind debating a bit. I don't think "dirk actively hurt his team's rebounding" is really an accurate depiction of his rebounding.

Yup, Dirk only got to the line .5 times more per game and Pierce shot 1 more three per game. That shot selection issue was enough to push Pierce ahead of Dirk in eFG% and TS%.

And actively hurting his team is an accurate description of Dirk's rebounding. He pulled in boards at the same rate as Glen Davis has for his career at a 12 rebound rate. He was better on the defensive glass than Glen Davis but he wasn't good.

[Snakehead]

2010-2011 Paul Pierce could not have carried a team through four straight playoff series, scoring all of the key buckets down the stretch in the fourth quarter.

Dirk did that last summer.

Now, if you want to argue whether or not Pierce was better in the spring / summer of '08, then we can have that discussion, but I just don't see how there can be any question of whether Dirk is the better player right now.

As I said in my other post, you have to consider the role Chandler played in them going that far in the playoffs.  Dirk carried his team on offense certainly, but Chandler was doing so on defense.  If Dirk manages that kind of playoff success this year without Chandler we can revisit my statements, but I'd bet a lot of money against that happening (and I think the early season backs me up very well so far).

Again, not to say Dirk is not a very good player and better than Pierce.  I just think he is a little overrated and the two are pretty close.



EDIT: And you just added the Bird part in Pos, I was not saying you said that at all, I was referencing the many people in the media and the public that made the comparison after the Finals last year.  You never said that and I'm not saying you did.

[PosImpos]

You got anymore edits for me there Faf or you about done?

I cannot believe Dirk ended up with a better TS%. I looked at his basic FG% (better), his 3pt% (better), and his free-throw percentage (better), and he got to the line more often!

I guess because Pierce shot more 3's?
 
The rebounding thing I don't mind debating a bit. I don't think "dirk actively hurt his team's rebounding" is really an accurate depiction of his rebounding.

Yup, Dirk only got to the line .5 times more per game and Pierce shot 1 more three per game. That shot selection issue was enough to push Pierce ahead of Dirk in eFG% and TS%.

And actively hurting his team is an accurate description of Dirk's rebounding. He pulled in boards at the same rate as Glen Davis has for his career at a 12 rebound rate.

Yeah, Dirk is not a great rebounder.  Part of that is because he spends so much of his time away from the basket, but Kevin Love is proof that it's possible to have an outside offensive game as a big man and still pull in a lot of boards, so that's not an adequate excuse for Dirk.

Nevertheless, Dirk's ability to score efficiently against any defense in the league at any time means his value to the Mavericks cannot be measured.