Is KG Done?

[PosImpos]

I just don't believe that Kevin Garnett is still a top 30-40 player in the NBA. I think he will give the team 12-14 points per game and 7-8 boards. He would be much better defensively, however, if the Celtics had a center. He is still starter caliber, but not an all star by any means.

yeah, this.



also, the idea that you're not an expert on basketball unless you've played it competitively is ridiculous.

there are NBA players who know less about the game of basketball than a majority of the posters on this board.

there are NBA experts who have spent years and years watching the game who have never played it at a high level.  does anybody here think Mike Gorman is not an expert on basketball?  how about Lawrence Frank? Flip Saunders?

there are tons of guys associated with professional basketball who have never played it at a high level beyond high school and yet know more about the game than the vast majority of players who have ever been in the NBA.

[Chris]

I just don't believe that Kevin Garnett is still a top 30-40 player in the NBA. I think he will give the team 12-14 points per game and 7-8 boards. He would be much better defensively, however, if the Celtics had a center. He is still starter caliber, but not an all star by any means.

I don't think he needs a center next to him necessarily, but he needs a quality defender.  JO has looked completely calcified, and every other big man they have used this season have been terrible on their rotations.

I personally think KG can transition well to the Center position, and in fact, I think it will be better for him, because it will mean he won't have to chase guys on the perimeter as much.  But what he can't do is defend both the center and PF spots simultaneously, while also trying to clean up for the guards who are playing matador defense on the perimeter.

[celtic -_- pride]

TP for this too. You can't expect everyone  on here to understand the game. I doubt the majority of people on here even played it at a competitive level; otherwise they would understand the impact Garnett still has even at this stage of his career.

While I agree with you on Garnett's impact the past two years despite his offensive decline, the underlined part of the post irks me hugely.

Its far too casual put down of the membership of this blog's basketball intelligence, along with an unverifiable appeal to authority of "playing competitively" (which is a rather vague term, some places pick up games are more competitive than HS tournaments).

I don't mean to put words in his mouth, but I take "comeptitive" there as speaking to what Garnett brings to your team psychology, identity, and intensity over the course of a season.  A pick up game is all fine and good but they hardly touch those aspects, while in a competitive situation you are part of the team and going through the whole experience of a season together.

I don't think playing "competitive" makes that totally clear, or the lack of that experience means you could never understand, but it has to help. 

Ultimately, how some are dismissing Garnett to me shows a lack of understanding of basketball at some level, regardless of the reasons behind it.

The mental aspect of playing basketball doesn't come into play as much when you are playing pickup basketball. There is little strategy put into place. It's very chaotic and disorganized. No game planning, etc. What these guys are doing in the NBA at that level is astonishing to be honest with you. The familiarity they have with one another and the preparation that takes place is off the charts.

Kg for the last few years has been successful more so because of his mental abilities more then his physical. The fact he has been able to play at such a high level into his mid 30s is unreal. He's being disrespected on here plain and simple. Forget what he has done in the past. He should be appreciated for what he is doing now. He is still playing at a level that only a hand full of other PFs can surpass. People are in a hurry to get rid of him, but I ask you who you will replace him with that can give you the overall production he currently does?

Okay I understand the difference between pickup ball and organized ball. I still dont get how it affects someone's knowledge of NBA ball.

Regardless, speaking to KG I think I nknow why some people are jumping on him this early.

Our team defense has been embarassingly bad and KG is the face of team defense.

I do not think he is done because physically he looks fine but his timing is off for some reason. He just doesnt look fluid on defense and he is not being as disruptive as he was last year in passing lanes. Hopefully it is just rust I think he'll be fine.

Just try not to generalize comments by saying "this board" because the voice of a few does not mean everyone here thinks KG is ready for burial.

his timing is off because he's older

[Fafnir]

I just don't believe that Kevin Garnett is still a top 30-40 player in the NBA. I think he will give the team 12-14 points per game and 7-8 boards. He would be much better defensively, however, if the Celtics had a center. He is still starter caliber, but not an all star by any means.

I don't think he needs a center next to him necessarily, but he needs a quality defender.  JO has looked completely calcified, and every other big man they have used this season have been terrible on their rotations.

I personally think KG can transition well to the Center position, and in fact, I think it will be better for him, because it will mean he won't have to chase guys on the perimeter as much.  But what he can't do is defend both the center and PF spots simultaneously, while also trying to clean up for the guards who are playing matador defense on the perimeter.

+1 for this.

O'Neal needs to pick up his defensive play most of all of our players.

[youcanthandlethetruth113]

I don't think he is done.  I think he is still one of the best defensive big men in the league, and that can't be overlooked.  I just don't think he is a guy who can give it to you consistently on both ends anymore.

I think he has basically become Marcus Camby.  Still a defensive force, but offensively, he is just a jumpshooter, who will move the ball, not gum up the offense, but can't do much more than that...at least 3 out of 4 games.  He still might have games here and there where his legs feel better and he can do more, but for the most part, that is what he is now.

I agree though, that he will likely retire after this year.  I am not sure he is dealing well with not being able to dominate, and I think he will hang it up.

I would agree but Camby doesn't shy away from contact and blocks at least 2 shots/game. I can't remember the last time KG blocked a shot nor got involved in a legal physical battle down low.

[jpd985]

I don't think he is done.  I think he is still one of the best defensive big men in the league, and that can't be overlooked.  I just don't think he is a guy who can give it to you consistently on both ends anymore.

I think he has basically become Marcus Camby.  Still a defensive force, but offensively, he is just a jumpshooter, who will move the ball, not gum up the offense, but can't do much more than that...at least 3 out of 4 games.  He still might have games here and there where his legs feel better and he can do more, but for the most part, that is what he is now.

I agree though, that he will likely retire after this year.  I am not sure he is dealing well with not being able to dominate, and I think he will hang it up.

I would agree but Camby doesn't shy away from contact and blocks at least 2 shots/game. I can't remember the last time KG blocked a shot nor got involved in a legal physical battle down low.

He did block a shot against the Hornets

[Kane3387]

Quote from: vinnie on Today at 02:26:45 pm
I just don't believe that Kevin Garnett is still a top 30-40 player in the NBA. I think he will give the team 12-14 points per game and 7-8 boards. He would be much better defensively, however, if the Celtics had a center. He is still starter caliber, but not an all star by any means.

yeah, this.

Ok this doesn't mean he is done. Being a starter in the NBA is far from it actually.

also, the idea that you're not an expert on basketball unless you've played it competitively is ridiculous.

No where did I type the word expert. I don't think anyone on this board is an expert. I am surely not. However if you think KG is done then I doubt you played the game much beyond middle school ball. For many Varsity High School Basketball programs it is different. You do watch film, scout other players, and get drilled in the fundamentals. You participate in camps and travel together in the summers. It's very competitive and you compete against Division 1 talent.

No way you don't recognize what KG still brings to the table. As a defensive captain you might not find better. Is there anyone else in the league you want captaining your defense on the final possession of a game? Maybe a couple guys come to mind but even so that doesn't sound "done" to me.

My post was directed at the people who believe KG is done. When someone is done it means they no longer should step on an NBA court anymore because the production they bring to the table isn't valuable enough to warrant it. Does that sound like Kg to you?

It's funny because this stuff was being said about Kg in 2010. And all he did that season was dominate the Cleveland frontline in the semi-finals. Erase Rashard Lewis in the Conference finals essentially crippling Orlando's offense and then almost help us win a title in the Finals. In 2011 people again said KG is done and all he did was be the runner up in the DPOY voting, make the all star team, and basically have the second best season he has ever had as a Celtic.

I saw him in game 3 against Miami put together the kind of game that 70% of the NBA big men in the league will never ever have. Just because he can't consistently have those games doesn't mean he is done. The fact he had that one this late in his career tells me there is still gas in the tank. We are three games in. To say Kg is done is simply overreacting to a poor showing for a 35 year old guy playing in a back to back, a third game in four nights, and without a proper training camp and pre-season.

there are NBA players who know less about the game of basketball than a majority of the posters on this board.

There is no way this is true. Maybe they aren't the most articulate, but you can't get to the NBA and maintain that level of play without having a great knowledge of the game. You're talking about professional ball players who do this for a living. They are members of the top 500 players in the world. They know likely know more abut basketball then anyone on this board. No one in the NBA knows less about basketball then the majority of people on this board.

there are NBA experts who have spent years and years watching the game who have never played it at a high level.  does anybody here think Mike Gorman is not an expert on basketball?  how about Lawrence Frank? Flip Saunders?

This is a small percentage of people who at least played in ball in a small college somewhere and definitely Varsity in High School. They also have had access to great minds of the game which likely only 1% of this board can lay claim too. The game has literally been all of those people's life. I guarantee you they played ball at a higher level then most people on this board.

there are tons of guys associated with professional basketball who have never played it at a high level beyond high school and yet know more about the game than the vast majority of players who have ever been in the NBA.

This might be true, but High School Ball can't be looked down upon. For a lot of high school basketball programs it's very competitive and very demanding. It requires a lot of commitment and sacrifice. Also I will say that in general there aren't a lot of people in professional basketball and thus not a lot involved with it or associated with it.

Again Kevin Garnett is not done. He still brings a lot of value to this team on the court. Substitute him with guys like Gasol, Dirk, Amare, Z-Bo, Bosh, Aldridge, Love, and Griffin and maybe we are a better team. Yet, that doesn't mean the man is done. Replace him with a Boozer, Milsap, Jefferson, Lee, Bargnani, or West and I bet we are worse. Anyone else and I am sure we are worse. Again that doesn't sound like "he's done" to me.

If you think KG is done, then yeah I question how much you know about the game because the man is still an impacting player presently.

[nickagneta]

I think someone called Garnett a top 3-4 PF in this league still. Well, for one game, that might be correct. But if I'm about to go into a tough, seven game playoff series and want and need a great consistent job coming out of the PF position, these are PFs I would want on my team before KG, now:
Definitely:

Zach Randolph
Amar'e Stoudemire
Dirk Nowitzki
Blake Griffin
Kevin Love
LaMarcus Aldridge
Pau Gasol

Probably:

Chris Bosh
Anderson Varejao
Josh Smith
David West

Possibly:

Carlos Boozer
Paul Millsap
Luis Scola

I love KG but is there any denying that in the playoffs last year and for most of the end of last year he was hit or miss with what he could give you on any given night? Especially defensively. When the games went to every other day, every third game was a complete dud for KG.

I love the guy, think the world of him and am willing to give him and the team some time to round into shape. But, I think time and a condensed schedule is going to show that he has lost a step, is slowing down, and that there are a lot of PFs out there now playing on the same level as he is.

[BballTim]

there are NBA players who know less about the game of basketball than a majority of the posters on this board.

There is no way this is true. Maybe they aren't the most articulate, but you can't get to the NBA and maintain that level of play without having a great knowledge of the game. You're talking about professional ball players who do this for a living. They are members of the top 500 players in the world. They know likely know more abut basketball then anyone on this board. No one in the NBA knows less about basketball then the majority of people on this board.

  There were plenty of people here last summer who thought the Heat would struggle on offense and knew exactly why. The fact that they struggled on offense came as a complete surprise to James and Bosh and, one would expect, Wade as well.

[TheTruthFot18]

Zach Randolph
Amar'e Stoudemire
Dirk Nowitzki
Blake Griffin
Kevin Love
LaMarcus Aldridge
Pau Gasol

Probably:

Chris Bosh
Anderson Varejao
Josh Smith
David West

Possibly:

Carlos Boozer
Paul Millsap
Luis Scola

Yes many of these guys are better than KG (mostly offense) but its really easy to compare a player to his peers and determine rank but what matters more is how that player fits into your system. I don;t think that was your point, but the majority of the above PF's wouldn't fair much better in overall production as our starting PF. No way someone like Dirk, Stat, or Gasol would get enough touches and others lack real defensive abilities. I still think, while his production is declining, KG matches up well with most PF's especially on D.

[Kane3387]

there are NBA players who know less about the game of basketball than a majority of the posters on this board.

There is no way this is true. Maybe they aren't the most articulate, but you can't get to the NBA and maintain that level of play without having a great knowledge of the game. You're talking about professional ball players who do this for a living. They are members of the top 500 players in the world. They know likely know more abut basketball then anyone on this board. No one in the NBA knows less about basketball then the majority of people on this board.

  There were plenty of people here last summer who thought the Heat would struggle on offense and knew exactly why. The fact that they struggled on offense came as a complete surprise to James and Bosh and, one would expect, Wade as well.

I seem to remember them saying they knew it would be a work in progress. The fact they didn't doubt their abilities like many others doesn't mean people on Celtics Blog know more about the game of basketball then Lebron James, Dwayne Wade, and Chris Bosh. Their offense was still unstoppable at times and good enough to help them get within two wins of a title.

[Kane3387]

I think someone called Garnett a top 3-4 PF in this league still. Well, for one game, that might be correct. But if I'm about to go into a tough, seven game playoff series and want and need a great consistent job coming out of the PF position, these are PFs I would want on my team before KG, now:
Definitely:

Zach Randolph
Amar'e Stoudemire
Dirk Nowitzki
Blake Griffin
Kevin Love
LaMarcus Aldridge
Pau Gasol

Probably:

Chris Bosh
Anderson Varejao
Josh Smith
David West

Possibly:

Carlos Boozer
Paul Millsap
Luis Scola

I love KG but is there any denying that in the playoffs last year and for most of the end of last year he was hit or miss with what he could give you on any given night? Especially defensively. When the games went to every other day, every third game was a complete dud for KG.

I love the guy, think the world of him and am willing to give him and the team some time to round into shape. But, I think time and a condensed schedule is going to show that he has lost a step, is slowing down, and that there are a lot of PFs out there now playing on the same level as he is.

So you do think he is done or not?

[nickagneta]

I think someone called Garnett a top 3-4 PF in this league still. Well, for one game, that might be correct. But if I'm about to go into a tough, seven game playoff series and want and need a great consistent job coming out of the PF position, these are PFs I would want on my team before KG, now:
Definitely:

Zach Randolph
Amar'e Stoudemire
Dirk Nowitzki
Blake Griffin
Kevin Love
LaMarcus Aldridge
Pau Gasol

Probably:

Chris Bosh
Anderson Varejao
Josh Smith
David West

Possibly:

Carlos Boozer
Paul Millsap
Luis Scola

I love KG but is there any denying that in the playoffs last year and for most of the end of last year he was hit or miss with what he could give you on any given night? Especially defensively. When the games went to every other day, every third game was a complete dud for KG.

I love the guy, think the world of him and am willing to give him and the team some time to round into shape. But, I think time and a condensed schedule is going to show that he has lost a step, is slowing down, and that there are a lot of PFs out there now playing on the same level as he is.

So you do think he is done or not?

Done...hell no. In decline...hell yes. Is there really any denying that?

[j804]

KG is missing a real center, our identity and stifling Defense went out the window when Perk was traded away. The truth hurts but that's what it is teams no longer fear us.

[nickagneta]

And here's the thing about superstar pro athletes in decline, it can happen in a couple of ways:

1. The player declines slowly over years and leave the game just before (See Reggie Miller in Indiana)....

2. The player declines precipitously and continues to try to push on even though he clearly does not have anything any longer.(See Hakeem in Toronto)

I really want KG to be player #1. Time will tell if he is a player #2 guy.