If Jeff Green can't go is Jajuan Johnson our guy

[nickagneta]

Based on Doc's history of benching Rookies, combined with the point others have already made that JJJ would be playing out of position, I'd say no.  If Green can't play Daniels is our guy, followed by Pav.  Just my guess...

I think you mean "based on the myth of Doc's history of benching rookies . . . "

Really?  You don't think it's tough for Rookies to crack the rotation in a meaningful way under Doc?  That's certainly been my observation, honestly can't think of a post-Big-3 example of a 1st year player getting minutes over a clear alternative vet.  Help me out...

Sure;  Leon Powe, Glen Davis, Semih Erden.  Those guys all got significant minutes as rookies playing for Doc Rivers.

On the other hand, I  guess Doc Rivers is like all other NBA coaches of contending teams in that if given a choice between a late first round or second round rookie and a proven veteran, he'll generally go with the proven veteran.  Rookies get opportunities when the guys ahead of them get injured.  That's how it works.

I'm hoping that our young guys will be ready when those opportunities inevitably present themselves this season.  If all the guys penciled into the rotation are good for a full 66 games this year, of course, I'll take that too. 

That's my point, Baby & Powe were our only backup PF options in their 1st year, and Semih only saw significant minutes due to injuries.  This thread is about whether a 1st year player will see minutes over alternatives that have multiple years in the NBA and with our system.  Hence, I do not believe JJJ will get significant minutes at all, much less as the primary backup 3.

Weren't James Posey, Brian Scalabrine and PJ Brown also getting a ton of time at the PF slot during Baby's rookie year? Also, as a rookie Leon was getting time over Ryan Gomes and Scalabrine who were backing up Big Al.

Rookies get time under Doc if they play well and learn fast. They also have to earn their time by demonstrating they can get it on the court in practice. If Johnson, Brown, Moore or Stiemsma make it onto the court it will be cause of desperation due to injuries or because they earned it with their play.

That is Doc's way of handling rookies.

[Fafnir]

Based on Doc's history of benching Rookies, combined with the point others have already made that JJJ would be playing out of position, I'd say no.  If Green can't play Daniels is our guy, followed by Pav.  Just my guess...

I think you mean "based on the myth of Doc's history of benching rookies . . . "

Really?  You don't think it's tough for Rookies to crack the rotation in a meaningful way under Doc?  That's certainly been my observation, honestly can't think of a post-Big-3 example of a 1st year player getting minutes over a clear alternative vet.  Help me out...

Sure;  Leon Powe, Glen Davis, Semih Erden.  Those guys all got significant minutes as rookies playing for Doc Rivers.

On the other hand, I  guess Doc Rivers is like all other NBA coaches of contending teams in that if given a choice between a late first round or second round rookie and a proven veteran, he'll generally go with the proven veteran.  Rookies get opportunities when the guys ahead of them get injured.  That's how it works.

I'm hoping that our young guys will be ready when those opportunities inevitably present themselves this season.  If all the guys penciled into the rotation are good for a full 66 games this year, of course, I'll take that too. 

That's my point, Baby & Powe were our only backup PF options in their 1st year, and Semih only saw significant minutes due to injuries.  This thread is about whether a 1st year player will see minutes over alternatives that have multiple years in the NBA and with our system.  Hence, I do not believe JJJ will get significant minutes at all, much less as the primary backup 3.

I don't think JJJ will see any time at the 3 either, that's not his position.

As for Doc with rookies, I think Mike Miller, Rajon Rondo, Leon Powe, Glen Davis, Pat Burke, Tony Allen, Al Jefferson, and Delonte West would all be shocked to find out they didn't play as rookies.

[Reggie's Ghost]

Based on Doc's history of benching Rookies, combined with the point others have already made that JJJ would be playing out of position, I'd say no.  If Green can't play Daniels is our guy, followed by Pav.  Just my guess...

I think you mean "based on the myth of Doc's history of benching rookies . . . "

Really?  You don't think it's tough for Rookies to crack the rotation in a meaningful way under Doc?  That's certainly been my observation, honestly can't think of a post-Big-3 example of a 1st year player getting minutes over a clear alternative vet.  Help me out...

Sure;  Leon Powe, Glen Davis, Semih Erden.  Those guys all got significant minutes as rookies playing for Doc Rivers.

On the other hand, I  guess Doc Rivers is like all other NBA coaches of contending teams in that if given a choice between a late first round or second round rookie and a proven veteran, he'll generally go with the proven veteran.  Rookies get opportunities when the guys ahead of them get injured.  That's how it works.

I'm hoping that our young guys will be ready when those opportunities inevitably present themselves this season.  If all the guys penciled into the rotation are good for a full 66 games this year, of course, I'll take that too. 

That's my point, Baby & Powe were our only backup PF options in their 1st year, and Semih only saw significant minutes due to injuries.  This thread is about whether a 1st year player will see minutes over alternatives that have multiple years in the NBA and with our system.  Hence, I do not believe JJJ will get significant minutes at all, much less as the primary backup 3.

Weren't James Posey, Brian Scalabrine and PJ Brown also getting a ton of time at the PF slot during Baby's rookie year? Also, as a rookie Leon was getting time over Ryan Gomes and Scalabrine who were backing up Big Al.

Rookies get time under Doc if they play well and learn fast. They also have to earn their time by demonstrating they can get it on the court in practice. If Johnson, Brown, Moore or Stiemsma make it onto the court it will be cause of desperation due to injuries or because they earned it with their play.

That is Doc's way of handling rookies.

Yes, Posey, Scal & Brown were seeing minutes over Baby his rookie year, and the only year Leon and Gomes were both on this team, Gomes averaged 10 more mpg.  The point: as you and many others are saying, rookies have to wait until someone gets hurt.  I don't personally see any evidence that Doc would play a 1st year player over a veteran alternative because of what they show on the court, as my Rondo and Perk examples show.  He likes guys with some miles, who are more familiar will the pro level.

I don't think JJJ will see any time at the 3 either, that's not his position.

As for Doc with rookies, I think Mike Miller, Rajon Rondo, Leon Powe, Glen Davis, Pat Burke, Tony Allen, Al Jefferson, and Delonte West would all be shocked to find out they didn't play as rookies.

As I understand his point to be that rookies have to wait their turn.  I agree, with Doc it's seems regardless of what they show on the court he goes with the vets.  It's fine by me, works more often than not.  In the past, during times when there was a better player riding the pine, I've seen Doc go with veterans because that's his comfort zone.

I never said Doc literally doesn't play rookies, that's just silly.  All of the Celtics rookies you mentioned though were either buried behind an inferior vet or played because there were no alternatives. 

[Fafnir]

Go look at how many minutes Scalabrine played, now look at Baby's. Look who was active in the playoffs as well. Doc had other options and chose to play BBD.

Everyone's excuse when confronted with the fact that Doc does give rookies playing time is always "he had no choice" or "injuries forced him to" when that really isn't true.

But people are upset their binkies don't get 20 MPG and thus "Doc doesn't play (or benches) rookies becomes a fact". Doc has benched quite a few players: he benched Tony, he benched Rondo, he benched Davis/Powe at times, he benched Eddie, and then he benched Cassell, he benched Scal, he benched Perk, etc...

[nickagneta]

Mike Miller...Rookie of the Year...

And that's all I'm going to say about that.

[Reggie's Ghost]

Go look at how many minutes Scalabrine played, now look at Baby's. Look who was active in the playoffs as well. Doc had other options and chose to play BBD.

Everyone's excuse when confronted with the fact that Doc does give rookies playing time is always "he had no choice" or "injuries forced him to" when that really isn't true.

But people are upset their binkies don't get 20 MPG and thus "Doc doesn't play (or benches) rookies becomes a fact". Doc has benched quite a few players: he benched Tony, he benched Rondo, he benched Davis/Powe at times, he benched Eddie, and then he benched Cassell, he benched Scal, he benched Perk, etc...

Regular season 07-08:
Baby: 13.6 mpg
Scal: 19.6 mpg

 

Other examples: Bassy seeing starting minutes over Rondo, Banks seeing starting minutes over Banks, Blount seeing minutes over Perk.  It doesn't happen often, but sometimes the better player is a rookie, and when that happens Doc looks elsewhere.  

First you make up something about how I claimed rookies play zero minutes under Doc, then you start claiming that players I like are my binkey.  Dude, you're a mod, what have I written that draws your ire?  Maybe you need to find a punching bag, no need to look for a fight on a flippin' blog.  Your language is inflammatory and unnecessarily aggressive.

First time posting here in over a year, this exchange has been a disappointment  

[Reggie's Ghost]

Mike Miller...Rookie of the Year...

And that's all I'm going to say about that.

I can't speak to this, I wasn't a Magic fan at the time so I have no clue who else was on the team or who he was seeing minutes over.  Perhaps he's taking a different approach now that he's with us.

As a coach of the Celtics, Doc goes with the vets, making it a steep uphill climb for rookies even when they're playing their asses off.  Not saying it's impossible, just unlikely.

[nickagneta]

As bad as Mark Blount was, there is no way Perkins was better than Blount his rookie year. The idea is absurd.

Rondo got starters minutes over Bassy and West for a good portion of 2007 before being sat and then re-earning the starting position and none of it had to do with injury. It had to do with Bassy sucking and Rondo playing better than him and then playing worse and needing to be benched before returning because of improved play. I remember that year quite well because I had a ton of arguments about how good Rondo was on this very blog.

[2short]

As bad as Mark Blount was, there is no way Perkins was better than Blount his rookie year. The idea is absurd.

Rondo got starters minutes over Bassy and West for a good portion of 2007 before being sat and then re-earning the starting position and none of it had to do with injury. It had to do with Bassy sucking and Rondo playing better than him and then playing worse and needing to be benched before returning because of improved play. I remember that year quite well because I had a ton of arguments about how good Rondo was on this very blog.

rondo was clearly better than any pg we had in preseason his rookie year
i was in shock at how good and i remember tommy & cooz going nuts

[Reggie's Ghost]

As bad as Mark Blount was, there is no way Perkins was better than Blount his rookie year. The idea is absurd.

Rondo got starters minutes over Bassy and West for a good portion of 2007 before being sat and then re-earning the starting position and none of it had to do with injury. It had to do with Bassy sucking and Rondo playing better than him and then playing worse and needing to be benched before returning because of improved play. I remember that year quite well because I had a ton of arguments about how good Rondo was on this very blog.

Agreed, but in his second year he remained behind Blount aswell.  You know, Blount...voted the worst Celtic ever on this blog.

Rondo didn't get starters minutes over Bassy until the team was in the tank  In that year, Bassy started a CAREER HIGH 30 games.  By the time Rondo was starting over West, West was playing at the 2 and was also subsequently injured.

I remember that season pretty well too  

http://greentownsfinest.blogspot.com/2007/08/celtics-mix-chapter-1-requiem-for-team.html

[Reggie's Ghost]

As bad as Mark Blount was, there is no way Perkins was better than Blount his rookie year. The idea is absurd.

Rondo got starters minutes over Bassy and West for a good portion of 2007 before being sat and then re-earning the starting position and none of it had to do with injury. It had to do with Bassy sucking and Rondo playing better than him and then playing worse and needing to be benched before returning because of improved play. I remember that year quite well because I had a ton of arguments about how good Rondo was on this very blog.

rondo was clearly better than any pg we had in preseason his rookie year
i was in shock at how good and i remember tommy & cooz going nuts

Thank you. TP

[RyNye]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know how the Celtics fare with other recent title contenders in terms of rookie playing time?

I mean, only superstar rookies (who usually get drafted by horrible teams) or rookies on horrible teams with no other options (Clippers, lookin' at you!) really get a lot of minutes. I think it is pretty rare for a rookie on a contender to really get minutes, outside of injury reasons.

Though, I think it would be interesting to compare the top seeds in terms of average rookie minute allocation.

[kozlodoev]

rondo was clearly better than any pg we had in preseason his rookie year
i was in shock at how good and i remember tommy & cooz going nuts

And that's supposed to mean anything? Orien Greene looked like Magic during the preseason.

[nickagneta]

As bad as Mark Blount was, there is no way Perkins was better than Blount his rookie year. The idea is absurd.

Rondo got starters minutes over Bassy and West for a good portion of 2007 before being sat and then re-earning the starting position and none of it had to do with injury. It had to do with Bassy sucking and Rondo playing better than him and then playing worse and needing to be benched before returning because of improved play. I remember that year quite well because I had a ton of arguments about how good Rondo was on this very blog.

Agreed, but in his second year he remained behind Blount aswell.  You know, Blount...voted the worst Celtic ever on this blog.

Rondo didn't get starters minutes over Bassy until the team was in the tank  In that year, Bassy started a CAREER HIGH 30 games.  By the time Rondo was starting over West, West was playing at the 2 and was also subsequently injured.

I remember that season pretty well too  

http://greentownsfinest.blogspot.com/2007/08/celtics-mix-chapter-1-requiem-for-team.html

Then you clearly forgot the 9 games Rondo started while being intermittently sat because of performance and attitude problems before finally getting the start in the final 14 games of the season. 

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rondora01/gamelog/2007/

[Reggie's Ghost]

As bad as Mark Blount was, there is no way Perkins was better than Blount his rookie year. The idea is absurd.

Rondo got starters minutes over Bassy and West for a good portion of 2007 before being sat and then re-earning the starting position and none of it had to do with injury. It had to do with Bassy sucking and Rondo playing better than him and then playing worse and needing to be benched before returning because of improved play. I remember that year quite well because I had a ton of arguments about how good Rondo was on this very blog.

Agreed, but in his second year he remained behind Blount aswell.  You know, Blount...voted the worst Celtic ever on this blog.

Rondo didn't get starters minutes over Bassy until the team was in the tank  In that year, Bassy started a CAREER HIGH 30 games.  By the time Rondo was starting over West, West was playing at the 2 and was also subsequently injured.

I remember that season pretty well too  

http://greentownsfinest.blogspot.com/2007/08/celtics-mix-chapter-1-requiem-for-team.html

Then you clearly forgot the 9 games Rondo started while being intermittently sat because of performance and attitude problems before finally getting the start in the final 14 games of the season. 

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rondora01/gamelog/2007/

Dude I barely remember what i had for breakfast.

Still, based on that it's fair to say: 06-07 Season - Bassy started over Rondo more often?  That's my point.  Bassy was absolutely stinking up the joint for most of the season and still played more than Rondo, who didn't see his significant minutes until the season was in the tank, Doc had checked out, and we had like 9 active players.

I should state, I don't necessarily think this phenomenon is a bad thing, in fact most coaches are this way.  Rondo was the vastly superior player that whole year, but his game was wild and instinctual, and Doc wanted to run a set offense so he went with the guy who had more experience at the professional level. 

All that said, all this debate is over nothing, we all agree that:

1. Doc looks to play vets over rookies

If Johnson, Brown, Moore or Stiemsma make it onto the court it will be cause of desperation due to injuries or because they earned it with their play.  That is Doc's way of handling rookies.

2. The above fact contributes to the only point I ever tried to make on this stupid thread: JJJ is therefore less likely to start at the 3 over Daniels or Pav.

Now if you'll excuse me I would continue this conversation but Im just going to go bang my head against a wall instead...