Amidst all this trade talk, I think we are forgetting something.

[GreenEnvy]

CP3 might be a better player, but Rondo is a better Pg if that makes sense. With this team you don't need to worry about how many shots the Big 3 are going to get, because he gets them the shots he needs.

 He also isn't worried about ticking on of them off if he doesn't go to them when they call for it when he sees some thing else. Could CP3 do that?

 Rondos only real weakness is FT shooting. And even then I think its in his head. He can shoot,50% isn't too bad, its just he really dosen't do it often, and at 50% only shooting it 10 times a game is pretty good. CP3 scores 18 a game and probably shoots 8 to 10 times more.

 Funny how people also say he wouldn't be the point guard he is with out the good shooting of the 3. True, but he has to get them the ball at the right spot at the right time. Some of those pass's are insane, proably top three passing with his off hand next to Kidd, and Nash.

So if its just a srub team I'd take CP3. But a team with some talent, Rondo is the choice...

Our offense has been getting worse and worse as time goes on (sans those few games with Shaq early last year). His "playmaking abilities" are overrated IMO. Flashy and fun to watch for sure, but it's hard to ignore that we are a rather underwhelming offensive team despite three 20,000-point scorers who compliment each other almost perfectly. Rondo has to be held accountable for that more than he is.

[BballTim]

Been thinking lately, and Rondo is a perfect starting PG for a rebuilding team. His contract isn't all that big, he's a pass 1st PG, he gets everyone involved, best PG defender in the league. I think we should keep Rondo and go after a really good PF next year/Center.

the only sense in which rondo is an ideal point guard for a rebuilding team is that he would be exciting (fan draw) while not actually leading his team to very many wins.  the team would still be bad and get a lot of draft picks, but you'd have an exciting guy throwing a lot of crazy passes. 

once the team drafted some legitimate offensive options, rondo would be a solid piece to have.  but you'd have to get lucky in the draft and find some really good scorers.

  What's the ideal point guard for a rebuilding team? Westbrook, who will shoot like he's AI? Paul or Williams, who might get you a few more wins so you'll get worse draft picks and be in the lottery longer?

  And for all the talk about how Rondo's only effective while he's surrounded by great scorers, there's another discussion going on about how the big three need help on offense because they're no longer, well, great scorers. Which is it? Is Rondo surrounded by HOF talent, or the players that couldn't muster much of an offense without him?

[BballTim]

CP3 might be a better player, but Rondo is a better Pg if that makes sense. With this team you don't need to worry about how many shots the Big 3 are going to get, because he gets them the shots he needs.

 He also isn't worried about ticking on of them off if he doesn't go to them when they call for it when he sees some thing else. Could CP3 do that?

 Rondos only real weakness is FT shooting. And even then I think its in his head. He can shoot,50% isn't too bad, its just he really dosen't do it often, and at 50% only shooting it 10 times a game is pretty good. CP3 scores 18 a game and probably shoots 8 to 10 times more.

 Funny how people also say he wouldn't be the point guard he is with out the good shooting of the 3. True, but he has to get them the ball at the right spot at the right time. Some of those pass's are insane, proably top three passing with his off hand next to Kidd, and Nash.

So if its just a srub team I'd take CP3. But a team with some talent, Rondo is the choice...

Our offense has been getting worse and worse as time goes on (sans those few games with Shaq early last year). His "playmaking abilities" are overrated IMO. Flashy and fun to watch for sure, but it's hard to ignore that we are a rather underwhelming offensive team despite three 20,000-point scorers who compliment each other almost perfectly. Rondo has to be held accountable for that more than he is.

  The main reason our offense is getting worse is a lack of offensive rebounding. You can only blame Rondo so much for that. In 07-08 our eFG% was 52.4, last year it was 51.9. In 07-08 our TS% was 56.9, last year it was 56.1. Rondo's "playmaking abilities" are why our offense scores almost as efficiently as it did when the big three were much more dominant offensive players.

[Celtics18]

This argument is so old, it isn't even an argument it is confirmation bias pure and simple.

I have no idea what your middle rant about. Points per shot last year was CP3 1.36 vs Rondo 1.076. That is a huge disparity.

Do you see what happens to our offense in the 4th quarter of close games on a consistent basis? Do you know why that happens? Because the other team is playing 5 on 4 and outside of PP our best chance to actually draw a foul is rondo with his quickness but he wants no part of going to the foul line.

There is a reason we blew the heat out once, they blew us out once and then we lost 3 games when our O stalled out the last 3 minutes.

And game 7 in LA when the lakers just decided to leave kobe "on" rondo and at the foul line gobbling up every defensive board (bryant had 17 rebounds) and playing free safety on any curl by ray or drive by pp - why do you think those things can happen?

Rondo is a nice player but stop trying to make inane arguments about how he is better for this team than one of the best all around point guards of the best 20 years.

When you have to say, "if that makes sense" in your point about rondo's value as it relates to another player - guess what, it doesn't make sense!

Finally, someone else gets it.

TP. Excellent spot-on analysis.

wow.

carhole wins.

that's all i can say, except to add that the fourth quarter collapses are also a result of age.  the big three, when they were younger, could count on having enough energy to still rely on pure jumpshooting late in games.  now, they are old, and by the middle of the fourth quarter they're wiped.  they just don't have their legs under them the same way, so it's harder for them to keep hitting those jumpshots unless they are really feeling it.  our offense is almost entirely comprised of jumpshots (no low-post threat, no slashers), so when they stop falling, our offense crashes to a halt.  

this also falls on rondo somewhat, though, because as the only young star on our team we need him to be able to step up and take over the offense when that happens late in games, but that's just not the type of player that he is.  so it goes.

 Rondos only real weakness is FT shooting. And even then I think its in his head. He can shoot,50% isn't too bad, its just he really dosen't do it often, and at 50% only shooting it 10 times a game is pretty good. CP3 scores 18 a game and probably shoots 8 to 10 times more.

i have to comment on this specifically, though.  In no way is 50% free throws good in any context, regardless of how many shots the player takes per game.  It's bad.  Awful.  Those are supposed to be free points (get it, that's why they're called free throws), and you're throwing away 50% of those free points.  Compare Rondo's free throw percentage to all of the other guards in the league and he's got to be around dead last.  

also, how many free throws do you think players usually take per game?  only superstars take 10 free throws a game.  kevin durant takes that many free throws a game.  most players only take 2-4 at most.

Really?  Our team is almost entirely a jumpshooting team?  According to HoopsData, only four teams in the league made more field goals at the rim per game last season than the Boston Celtics. 

Your statement about us being purely a jump shooting team isn't true.  Not that jump shooting teams can't have success.  Dallas Mavericks ring a bell?

[KGs Knee]

After reading the hundreds upon hundreds of discussions about Rondo here on this blog, I've come to this conclusion.

Those that hate in Rondo, are going to keep on hating on Rondo.  It doesn't matter what he does.  The hate is blind.  The rest of us will just keep on appreciating him for his greatness.

The haters can kiss the ring.

[LeoMoreno]

All your arguments are invalid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C09ZBddNa4k

[cman88]

If Rondo is healthy this season and plays like he did the beginning of last season, we are unstoppable...but thats the key.

im interested to see if Rondo can make another jump this year and carry more of an offensive load.

Dannys certainly surrounding him with some nice post players like Wilcox/Bass

[clawlin]

CP3 might be a better player, but Rondo is a better Pg if that makes sense. With this team you don't need to worry about how many shots the Big 3 are going to get, because he gets them the shots he needs.

 He also isn't worried about ticking on of them off if he doesn't go to them when they call for it when he sees some thing else. Could CP3 do that?

 Rondos only real weakness is FT shooting. And even then I think its in his head. He can shoot,50% isn't too bad, its just he really dosen't do it often, and at 50% only shooting it 10 times a game is pretty good. CP3 scores 18 a game and probably shoots 8 to 10 times more.

 Funny how people also say he wouldn't be the point guard he is with out the good shooting of the 3. True, but he has to get them the ball at the right spot at the right time. Some of those pass's are insane, proably top three passing with his off hand next to Kidd, and Nash.

So if its just a srub team I'd take CP3. But a team with some talent, Rondo is the choice...

Our offense has been getting worse and worse as time goes on (sans those few games with Shaq early last year). His "playmaking abilities" are overrated IMO. Flashy and fun to watch for sure, but it's hard to ignore that we are a rather underwhelming offensive team despite three 20,000-point scorers who compliment each other almost perfectly. Rondo has to be held accountable for that more than he is.

  The main reason our offense is getting worse is a lack of offensive rebounding. You can only blame Rondo so much for that. In 07-08 our eFG% was 52.4, last year it was 51.9. In 07-08 our TS% was 56.9, last year it was 56.1. Rondo's "playmaking abilities" are why our offense scores almost as efficiently as it did when the big three were much more dominant offensive players.

Brandon Bass' main strengths are offensive rebounding and scoring.  So although its not a miraculous change, it could help at least a little bit.

[BASS_THUMPER]

yeah...i could post a scalabrine top ten plays and yall would be sayin "get scal back"

i cant see a few minute vs a few years convincing me rondo is that dude

[PosImpos]

All your arguments are invalid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C09ZBddNa4k

that video is a perfect illustration of why rondo doesn't take it to the rim much, except in the playoffs when everything is on the line.  even when he's uncontested, rondo has to risk his body to score like that.

[Carhole]

CP3 might be a better player, but Rondo is a better Pg if that makes sense. With this team you don't need to worry about how many shots the Big 3 are going to get, because he gets them the shots he needs.

 He also isn't worried about ticking on of them off if he doesn't go to them when they call for it when he sees some thing else. Could CP3 do that?

 Rondos only real weakness is FT shooting. And even then I think its in his head. He can shoot,50% isn't too bad, its just he really dosen't do it often, and at 50% only shooting it 10 times a game is pretty good. CP3 scores 18 a game and probably shoots 8 to 10 times more.

 Funny how people also say he wouldn't be the point guard he is with out the good shooting of the 3. True, but he has to get them the ball at the right spot at the right time. Some of those pass's are insane, proably top three passing with his off hand next to Kidd, and Nash.

So if its just a srub team I'd take CP3. But a team with some talent, Rondo is the choice...

Our offense has been getting worse and worse as time goes on (sans those few games with Shaq early last year). His "playmaking abilities" are overrated IMO. Flashy and fun to watch for sure, but it's hard to ignore that we are a rather underwhelming offensive team despite three 20,000-point scorers who compliment each other almost perfectly. Rondo has to be held accountable for that more than he is.

  The main reason our offense is getting worse is a lack of offensive rebounding. You can only blame Rondo so much for that. In 07-08 our eFG% was 52.4, last year it was 51.9. In 07-08 our TS% was 56.9, last year it was 56.1. Rondo's "playmaking abilities" are why our offense scores almost as efficiently as it did when the big three were much more dominant offensive players.

You have argued against yourself. If Rondo's play making abilities are what keeps us scoring as efficiently as we did in 07-08 ( the year which when we needed crunch time scoring doc invariably put the ball in PP's hands to run point forward and add a shooter to the floor i.e. rondo getting bench for the greatest comeback in NBA finals history or  handing the controls to PP to bring us back from down double digits and ice game 6 ECF in detroit) then what happens to Rondo's "play making ability" at the end of games?

If it is his court sense, vision and greatness that is keeping these old men viable - why would it disappear and leave our offense inept during the most important time of any close game?

If it is his share genius on the court scoring our points, should it be easier to produce the desired outcome at the point in the game where he is basically not guarded?
 

[Carhole]

All your arguments are invalid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C09ZBddNa4k

that video is a perfect illustration of why rondo doesn't take it to the rim much, except in the playoffs when everything is on the line.  even when he's uncontested, rondo has to risk his body to score like that.

You honestly believe what you just wrote?

So how does every other good to great point guard in the last 40 years managed to have a career while getting to the rim?

Iverson took far more pounding and played that way for well over a decade, hell TJ ford still takes it to the rim and he almost snapped his spine.

And the larger issue is he doesnt do it when everything is on the line, countless close playoff games have ended without him using his abilities to be aggressive/draw fouls because he is horrified of shooting free throws

[LB3533]

CP3 might be a better player, but Rondo is a better Pg if that makes sense. With this team you don't need to worry about how many shots the Big 3 are going to get, because he gets them the shots he needs.

 He also isn't worried about ticking on of them off if he doesn't go to them when they call for it when he sees some thing else. Could CP3 do that?

 Rondos only real weakness is FT shooting. And even then I think its in his head. He can shoot,50% isn't too bad, its just he really dosen't do it often, and at 50% only shooting it 10 times a game is pretty good. CP3 scores 18 a game and probably shoots 8 to 10 times more.

 Funny how people also say he wouldn't be the point guard he is with out the good shooting of the 3. True, but he has to get them the ball at the right spot at the right time. Some of those pass's are insane, proably top three passing with his off hand next to Kidd, and Nash.

So if its just a srub team I'd take CP3. But a team with some talent, Rondo is the choice...

Our offense has been getting worse and worse as time goes on (sans those few games with Shaq early last year). His "playmaking abilities" are overrated IMO. Flashy and fun to watch for sure, but it's hard to ignore that we are a rather underwhelming offensive team despite three 20,000-point scorers who compliment each other almost perfectly. Rondo has to be held accountable for that more than he is.

  The main reason our offense is getting worse is a lack of offensive rebounding. You can only blame Rondo so much for that. In 07-08 our eFG% was 52.4, last year it was 51.9. In 07-08 our TS% was 56.9, last year it was 56.1. Rondo's "playmaking abilities" are why our offense scores almost as efficiently as it did when the big three were much more dominant offensive players.

I think when superstars and hall of famers play with each other, by default their games are going to get more efficient compared to when they play solo.

I am not discounting what Rondo means to our team, but I see as we give the keys to him more and more to let him drive this train....yes his assists go up, but our offense as a whole has been dropping since 08-09.

My main point is that when we put so much more emphasis on one guy and that emphasis takes away from our 3 main cogs, well that doesn't benefit the overall in a positive way.

07-08 BOS OFF was 10th ranked - USG% Big 3 = 71.9 (Rondo's APG: 5.1)

08-09 BOS OFF was 6th ranked - USG% Big 3 = 69.6 (Rondo APG: 8.2)

09-10 BOS OFF was 15th ranked - USG% Big 3 = 66.1 (Rondo APG: 9.

10-11 BOS OFF was 19th ranked - USG% Big 3 = 66.1 (Rondo APG: 11.2)

[PosImpos]

This argument is so old, it isn't even an argument it is confirmation bias pure and simple.

I have no idea what your middle rant about. Points per shot last year was CP3 1.36 vs Rondo 1.076. That is a huge disparity.

Do you see what happens to our offense in the 4th quarter of close games on a consistent basis? Do you know why that happens? Because the other team is playing 5 on 4 and outside of PP our best chance to actually draw a foul is rondo with his quickness but he wants no part of going to the foul line.

There is a reason we blew the heat out once, they blew us out once and then we lost 3 games when our O stalled out the last 3 minutes.

And game 7 in LA when the lakers just decided to leave kobe "on" rondo and at the foul line gobbling up every defensive board (bryant had 17 rebounds) and playing free safety on any curl by ray or drive by pp - why do you think those things can happen?

Rondo is a nice player but stop trying to make inane arguments about how he is better for this team than one of the best all around point guards of the best 20 years.

When you have to say, "if that makes sense" in your point about rondo's value as it relates to another player - guess what, it doesn't make sense!

Finally, someone else gets it.

TP. Excellent spot-on analysis.

wow.

carhole wins.

that's all i can say, except to add that the fourth quarter collapses are also a result of age.  the big three, when they were younger, could count on having enough energy to still rely on pure jumpshooting late in games.  now, they are old, and by the middle of the fourth quarter they're wiped.  they just don't have their legs under them the same way, so it's harder for them to keep hitting those jumpshots unless they are really feeling it.  our offense is almost entirely comprised of jumpshots (no low-post threat, no slashers), so when they stop falling, our offense crashes to a halt. 

this also falls on rondo somewhat, though, because as the only young star on our team we need him to be able to step up and take over the offense when that happens late in games, but that's just not the type of player that he is.  so it goes.

 Rondos only real weakness is FT shooting. And even then I think its in his head. He can shoot,50% isn't too bad, its just he really dosen't do it often, and at 50% only shooting it 10 times a game is pretty good. CP3 scores 18 a game and probably shoots 8 to 10 times more.

i have to comment on this specifically, though.  In no way is 50% free throws good in any context, regardless of how many shots the player takes per game.  It's bad.  Awful.  Those are supposed to be free points (get it, that's why they're called free throws), and you're throwing away 50% of those free points.  Compare Rondo's free throw percentage to all of the other guards in the league and he's got to be around dead last. 

also, how many free throws do you think players usually take per game?  only superstars take 10 free throws a game.  kevin durant takes that many free throws a game.  most players only take 2-4 at most.

Really?  Our team is almost entirely a jumpshooting team?  According to HoopsData, only four teams in the league made more field goals at the rim per game last season than the Boston Celtics. 

Your statement about us being purely a jump shooting team isn't true.  Not that jump shooting teams can't have success.  Dallas Mavericks ring a bell?

mavs have dirk, and they were also a really good rebounding team.  if you rebound well, you can get by relying on jumpshots because you get a lot of second chances.

as for scoring inside, the celtics have no post-up threat.  they don't have somebody who can consistently take a guy 1-on-1 down low and score without having to get an open look through ball movement (which shuts down late in games because the opposing defense clamps down on the shooters).

the celtics shooters create spacing which allows for ball movement and a lot of cuts to the rim, which is where those baskets at the rim come from.  later in games, though, it's a lot harder to get those because the shots stop falling.  because the celtics aren't a great offensive rebounding team they don't get a lot of second chance opportunities inside off misses.

[PosImpos]

All your arguments are invalid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C09ZBddNa4k

that video is a perfect illustration of why rondo doesn't take it to the rim much, except in the playoffs when everything is on the line.  even when he's uncontested, rondo has to risk his body to score like that.

You honestly believe what you just wrote?

So how does every other good to great point guard in the last 40 years managed to have a career while getting to the rim?

Iverson took far more pounding and played that way for well over a decade, hell TJ ford still takes it to the rim and he almost snapped his spine.

And the larger issue is he doesnt do it when everything is on the line, countless close playoff games have ended without him using his abilities to be aggressive/draw fouls because he is horrified of shooting free throws

rondo isn't allen iverson, though (who is?  are there any players like that in the nba now?), and tj ford isn't very good.  most great point guards who go to the rim like that on a regular basis are a good deal bigger so they can take the punishment (e.g. westbrook, rose), or have a reliable jumpshot that they use to keep the defense honest and get defenders out of position.

anyway, you said it yourself.  even if rondo could play like that on a regular basis, his free throws are so bad that it wouldn't be worth him going inside.  any trip ending in rondo shooting free throws is a bad offensive trip.