Is there a Tebow double standard, and if so what is it?

[MBunge]

I don't think passing a football is a talent you're born with therefore I think Tebow, with the amount of work he puts in, will become an adequate passer.  I don't think he'll have to run the option every play.  Combine this with his marketability, I don't think Jax or Cle can pass up on him.   

He has been working on it for a long time with little payoff.

Just because work is required does not mean everyone can do it. There are different innate potentials and extremely large differences in development. Good QBs have an amazing amount of coordination and I am quite skeptical that a guy in his mid 20s can fundamentally improve as Tebow needs to.

First, I see no reason to think he puts in any more work than most quarterbacks. Most of those guys put in ridiculous amounts of work to stay in throwing shape. Second, if he has been putting in so much work with so little payoff, why should anyone expect that all of a sudden this would fundamentally change?

I think is where the discussion goes off the rails.  Tebow just went 7-4 in the regular season, went to the playoffs and won a playoff game with a team that people had given up for dead 5 weeks into the season.  Tebow doesn't need to "fundamentally" improve.  He does need to improve certain aspects of his technique so can make simple throws more consistently but I don't think the Broncos ever really committed to giving Tebow the attention to make that happen.  Between the guy who drafted him getting booted out of the organization, the lock out and starting last season as Orton's back up, I doubt Bronco coaches ever spent all that much time working on Tebow's flaws.

Mike

[Moranis]

I don't think passing a football is a talent you're born with therefore I think Tebow, with the amount of work he puts in, will become an adequate passer.  I don't think he'll have to run the option every play.  Combine this with his marketability, I don't think Jax or Cle can pass up on him.   

He has been working on it for a long time with little payoff.

Just because work is required does not mean everyone can do it. There are different innate potentials and extremely large differences in development. Good QBs have an amazing amount of coordination and I am quite skeptical that a guy in his mid 20s can fundamentally improve as Tebow needs to.

First, I see no reason to think he puts in any more work than most quarterbacks. Most of those guys put in ridiculous amounts of work to stay in throwing shape. Second, if he has been putting in so much work with so little payoff, why should anyone expect that all of a sudden this would fundamentally change?

I think is where the discussion goes off the rails.  Tebow just went 7-4 in the regular season, went to the playoffs and won a playoff game with a team that people had given up for dead 5 weeks into the season.  Tebow doesn't need to "fundamentally" improve.  He does need to improve certain aspects of his technique so can make simple throws more consistently but I don't think the Broncos ever really committed to giving Tebow the attention to make that happen.  Between the guy who drafted him getting booted out of the organization, the lock out and starting last season as Orton's back up, I doubt Bronco coaches ever spent all that much time working on Tebow's flaws.

Mike

Rex Grossman was 4-3 after his first three seasons.  He then became the full time starter and went 13-3, won 2 playoff games, and lost the Superbowl for a 15-4 record overall.  Thus, after 4 seasons in the league Rex Grossman was 19-7 as a starter with 2 playoff wins and a Superbowl appearance.  He is 8-16 since. 

Derek Anderson was 0-3 as a starter his rookie year, he then went 10-5 his second season.  He is 8-17 since.


And there are countless other QB's that start off well in the win department, but whose skills aren't nearly as good as that record who just aren't legit starting NFL QB's.  Tim Tebow is just the latest guy in that group. 

[Eja117]

I don't think passing a football is a talent you're born with therefore I think Tebow, with the amount of work he puts in, will become an adequate passer.  I don't think he'll have to run the option every play.  Combine this with his marketability, I don't think Jax or Cle can pass up on him.   

He has been working on it for a long time with little payoff.

Just because work is required does not mean everyone can do it. There are different innate potentials and extremely large differences in development. Good QBs have an amazing amount of coordination and I am quite skeptical that a guy in his mid 20s can fundamentally improve as Tebow needs to.

First, I see no reason to think he puts in any more work than most quarterbacks. Most of those guys put in ridiculous amounts of work to stay in throwing shape. Second, if he has been putting in so much work with so little payoff, why should anyone expect that all of a sudden this would fundamentally change?

I think is where the discussion goes off the rails.  Tebow just went 7-4 in the regular season, went to the playoffs and won a playoff game with a team that people had given up for dead 5 weeks into the season.  Tebow doesn't need to "fundamentally" improve.  He does need to improve certain aspects of his technique so can make simple throws more consistently but I don't think the Broncos ever really committed to giving Tebow the attention to make that happen.  Between the guy who drafted him getting booted out of the organization, the lock out and starting last season as Orton's back up, I doubt Bronco coaches ever spent all that much time working on Tebow's flaws.

Mike

Rex Grossman was 4-3 after his first three seasons.  He then became the full time starter and went 13-3, won 2 playoff games, and lost the Superbowl for a 15-4 record overall.  Thus, after 4 seasons in the league Rex Grossman was 19-7 as a starter with 2 playoff wins and a Superbowl appearance.  He is 8-16 since. 

Derek Anderson was 0-3 as a starter his rookie year, he then went 10-5 his second season.  He is 8-17 since.


And there are countless other QB's that start off well in the win department, but whose skills aren't nearly as good as that record who just aren't legit starting NFL QB's.  Tim Tebow is just the latest guy in that group. 

Right, but at the point where they were doing well nobody said they weren't QBs or didn't have what it takes to do well in this league.  I sort of see that as a double standard.

[mqtcelticsfan]

Right, but at the point where they were doing well nobody said they weren't QBs or didn't have what it takes to do well in this league.  I sort of see that as a double standard.

This is simply untrue. Everyone and their mother thought Grossman and Anderson were pathetic quarterbacks that would never amount to anything.

[Eja117]

Right, but at the point where they were doing well nobody said they weren't QBs or didn't have what it takes to do well in this league.  I sort of see that as a double standard.

This is simply untrue. Everyone and their mother thought Grossman and Anderson were pathetic quarterbacks that would never amount to anything.

Did Rex G beat out a Qb who threw for 4000 yards the year before, lead maybe 4 4th quarter comebacks, and win a playoff game against the Steelers?  If he had done that would people have insisted he couldn't play?

[Eja117]

Speaking of Tebow double standards....this whole thing where Tebow is a horrid QB who can't throw a 10 yard out pass. Yet he led his team from 1-4 to the AFC West Championship and a playoff win against the Steelers.

That means...

either....

he's actually a good QB

or

these defenses he played against can't expect to stop offenses with real QBs like Stanford and Baylor, right?

I mean it's one or the other.

Either he's a good QB or you just got beat by a college QB.  I think Navy runs the triple option. Can you beat them?  Navy offense and Broncos defense vs the Steelers. What should happen?

Remember when you could just line up against Ryan Leaf and win? Despite Ryan having all these NFL tools?  That just doesn't happen with Tim Tebow.

Perhaps we've reached a golden era of terrible NFL defenses that can't stop college QBs. They definitely let all the other QBs put up video game numbers

[JHTruth]

As a long-time Broncos fan let me tell you theres a double standard in FAVOR of Tebow.

By all credible statistical models that have been used by almost every evaluator in the NFL, Tebow is a horrible QB. Bottom 5 in QBR, prob the worst passer at QB in the league, just horrible. His passes look like dead ducks in the air. Horrible footwork. This might have worked in 1959, doesnt work now.

Try telling this to any member of his fanbase. To them he can do no wrong, saying he needs to work on his passing makes you a horrible person. This man was starting over Orton just because of his fans. He will be starting over Sanchez by week 3 for the same reason. Does he have intangibles? Maybe against some horrible teams. The Patriots made him look like what he is, a college HB masquerading as a QB. The Steelers were banged up, Ben could barely run. He was owned by the Bills of all teams.

Tebow is the worst thing you could do to your franchise. Thank the football gods the Pats didnt trade for him..

[Fan from VT]

The other thing that needs to be kept in mind is people throw around the "made the playoffs" thing as if this was some objective measure of a quarterback's ability, while conveniently ignoring the fact that
-with the season on the line and the chance to really take the division/seal their playoffs, they went 0-3 down the stretch.
-they made the playoffs as an 8-8 team, the first time that has ever happened, and more indicative of a putrid division than a good team; there was one better team and 7 other teams that were exactly as good in the regular season.
-there's 50+ other players on a team and the best part of hte team was always the defense, maybe they all played a role in the 8 denver wins?

[Eja117]

If there was a RB who rushed for 1200 yards in his 2nd year and ran for critical 4th quarter runs to score last second touchdowns do you think people would say he was running wrong and was actually a QB? How about if he prayed publicly?

Would his team then trade him for a 36 year old RB who had 4 knee surgeries and was out of football the year before?

Exact. Same. Thing.

[OmarSekou]

If there wasn't a double standard for Tebow he wouldn't have gotten the Broncos starting job and we certainly wouldn't still be talking about him.

He's a marginal talent with unique skills but a good human being. What's good about him is you don't need to pay for big time receivers because he can't throw. He has great ball skills, toughness, and running ability. He can manage an offense where he isn't asked to make decisions in the pocket. On paper he should do fine as a package player on the Jets.

However, because he is who he is and the Jets are who they are, he is going to be extremely divisive the locker room (through no fault of his own). This would be an unbelievable season for the Jets to do Hard Knocks again.

[Roy H.]

If there was a RB who rushed for 1200 yards in his 2nd year and ran for critical 4th quarter runs to score last second touchdowns do you think people would say he was running wrong and was actually a QB? How about if he prayed publicly?

Would his team then trade him for a 36 year old RB who had 4 knee surgeries and was out of football the year before?

Exact. Same. Thing.

To make that RB the equivalent of Tebow, he'd have to have some flaw similar to Tebow's sub-50% completion percentage.  It would have to be like the RB fumbling 2 to 3 times per game or something.

[indeedproceed]

To make that RB the equivalent of Tebow, he'd have to have some flaw similar to Tebow's sub-50% completion percentage.  It would have to be like the RB fumbling 2 to 3 times per game or something.

Maybe a good comparison is Reggie Bush before the last season; a guy who can make huge plays, is a proven winner, and super high profile for whatever reason. A guy you can get excited about, but not one you're sold that can carry the load every down.

[Eja117]

If there was a RB who rushed for 1200 yards in his 2nd year and ran for critical 4th quarter runs to score last second touchdowns do you think people would say he was running wrong and was actually a QB? How about if he prayed publicly?

Would his team then trade him for a 36 year old RB who had 4 knee surgeries and was out of football the year before?

Exact. Same. Thing.

To make that RB the equivalent of Tebow, he'd have to have some flaw similar to Tebow's sub-50% completion percentage.  It would have to be like the RB fumbling 2 to 3 times per game or something.

That's fair as long as it doesn't stop said running back from leading a losing team to a playoff win.

In fact if a hypothetical QB had a 0% completion percentage if he can go undefeated and win that makes him the best QB in the league.

I don't even mind if he has lots and lots of flaws if he wins. Maybe he reads things wrong, and can't change plays at the line of scrimmage and can't read at all and has bad hair and doesn't make commercials like Peyton Manning, but if he can take over a losing team and lead it to the playoffs I'm fine with that.

I heard after the playoff game lots of Steelers fans were saying "We lost the game, but your quarterback is flawed!" lt really bothered Broncos fans all week.

Peyton Manning on the other hand is unflawed, unless you count his neck, where he has some flaws, but other than that as a QB he is flawless and has one whole Super Bowl ring and lots of statistics to show for it.

I really really really hate comparing Tim Tebow to Allen Iverson, but Iverson had a pretty horrid fg%, but still won games and was considered one of the best of his era.  Tebow is a little more like that. Without Iverson Philly was nothing. Before Tebow Denver was a losing team.  People here think Rondo is a great great NBA pg despite serious flaws.

I definitely think one of the Tebow double standards is that despite being clearly one of the best in the league at running the ball he isn't allowed to have a flaw despite winning.

Also Tebow's 4th quarter completion percentage is probably a little higher, so maybe the hypothetical RB should never fumble in the 4th quarter when he wins.

[indeedproceed]

The thing I still wonder though is how did a Penn State Nittany Lion, Celtics and Pats fan, become Tim Tebow's staunchest supporter? Serious question.

[mqtcelticsfan]

Right, but at the point where they were doing well nobody said they weren't QBs or didn't have what it takes to do well in this league.  I sort of see that as a double standard.

This is simply untrue. Everyone and their mother thought Grossman and Anderson were pathetic quarterbacks that would never amount to anything.

Did Rex G beat out a Qb who threw for 4000 yards the year before, lead maybe 4 4th quarter comebacks, and win a playoff game against the Steelers?  If he had done that would people have insisted he couldn't play?

Grossman won 13 games and completed more than 50% of his passes. Then, he led his team to the Super Bowl. So, I think he might have done better than Tebow. But yeah, people did insist he couldn't play, and they were right.