The Forgotten Celtic: Cowens

[Donoghus]

  Thats the nature of a franchise as storied as the Celtic's are. 

  Cowens would be the best player in the history of quite a few NBA teams with his resume. 

  He was my original favorite player.  I started following the NBA in the mid 70's at the age of 10.  Cowens was in his prime, outplaying guys who were a half a foot taller then he was.  In over 40 years of following the NBA I've never seen anyone who played harder then Dave Cowens did.

I really don't think so, CelticsFanNC.  I think that the top three positions should be locked in as Russell, Bird and Cowens, because these were the three guys who led us to multiple championships.  If Pierce wins another, then maybe he moves ahead of Cowens.   I agree with your point about the way he played, though.  I was watching some footage of his play last night, and I was struck by the impression that in his head he was seven feet tall!

Cowens over Hondo? I don't see it.

What can I say.  Hondo scored a lot of points.  He must be a better player than Cowens.

I guess those 8 All-Defensive 1st or 2nd teams don't mean a thing, huh?

Or those 4 All-NBA first teams he made during the same period where, coincidentally, Dave Cowens was a teammate of his?

How many championships do you really think he would have won without Cowens after Russell
?

How many would have Cowens won without Havlicek?

C'mon...its pretty apparent they needed each other to enjoy the successes that they did.  

[Jeff]

have a nice day

[paulcowens]

I don't think you can clearly say that Cowens was the #1 option / "#1 guy" on his team.  The '74 and '76 teams were more of a three-headed monster of Cowens, Havlicek, and JoJo.  Hondo was the '74 Finals MVP and the team's leading scorer; Jo Jo was the '76 Finals MVP, and Cowens was the '76 team's lead scorer by a very slim margin.

I guess I just don't think you can say "Hondo was a great second option".  He finished in the top ten in scoring six times and in the top ten in assists seven times.  He was the lead scorer on three championship teams, and was a key player on many more, winning eight rings in total.  Also, when assessing "best Celtic", you have to look at longevity as well as dominance; Havlicek was at the top of his game for at least 12 seasons (12 All-Star appearances, 11 All-NBA), whereas Cowens had a shorter window.

EDIT:  I agree that Cowens was part of the "heart and soul" of the team.  However, Havlicek was, too.

I agree that it's not as clear a case of who was the main guy as it was for the Bird Celtics and the Russell celtics.  It's more comparable to the Big Three Celtics, where Garnett is really the key guy, but it's a hard call - only I think Cowens was more definitely the main guy on his team.

But I think that's the quality that defines a truly great player and separates them from the other players.  Longevity matters, and so does scoring and all the other aspects of the game, but being the guy who makes a team gel into greatness is the key.

[BASS_THUMPER]

have a nice day

u too jeff

[paulcowens]

  Thats the nature of a franchise as storied as the Celtic's are. 

  Cowens would be the best player in the history of quite a few NBA teams with his resume. 

  He was my original favorite player.  I started following the NBA in the mid 70's at the age of 10.  Cowens was in his prime, outplaying guys who were a half a foot taller then he was.  In over 40 years of following the NBA I've never seen anyone who played harder then Dave Cowens did.

I really don't think so, CelticsFanNC.  I think that the top three positions should be locked in as Russell, Bird and Cowens, because these were the three guys who led us to multiple championships.  If Pierce wins another, then maybe he moves ahead of Cowens.   I agree with your point about the way he played, though.  I was watching some footage of his play last night, and I was struck by the impression that in his head he was seven feet tall!

Cowens over Hondo? I don't see it.

What can I say.  Hondo scored a lot of points.  He must be a better player than Cowens.

I guess those 8 All-Defensive 1st or 2nd teams don't mean a thing, huh?

Or those 4 All-NBA first teams he made during the same period where, coincidentally, Dave Cowens was a teammate of his?

How many championships do you really think he would have won without Cowens after Russell
?

How many would have Cowens won without Havlicek?

C'mon...its pretty apparent they needed each other to enjoy the successes that they did.  

I agree that they needed each other.  That's always the case with a great team, I'd say.   But who was the guy who defined that team's character, around whom it gelled?

[paulcowens]

have a nice day

Hey, you too buddy.  Nice way to skew the poll ridiculously.  Why not throw Walker in there?

[paulcowens]

  Thats the nature of a franchise as storied as the Celtic's are. 

  Cowens would be the best player in the history of quite a few NBA teams with his resume. 

  He was my original favorite player.  I started following the NBA in the mid 70's at the age of 10.  Cowens was in his prime, outplaying guys who were a half a foot taller then he was.  In over 40 years of following the NBA I've never seen anyone who played harder then Dave Cowens did.

I really don't think so, CelticsFanNC.  I think that the top three positions should be locked in as Russell, Bird and Cowens, because these were the three guys who led us to multiple championships.  If Pierce wins another, then maybe he moves ahead of Cowens.   I agree with your point about the way he played, though.  I was watching some footage of his play last night, and I was struck by the impression that in his head he was seven feet tall!

Cowens over Hondo? I don't see it.

What can I say.  Hondo scored a lot of points.  He must be a better player than Cowens.

I guess those 8 All-Defensive 1st or 2nd teams don't mean a thing, huh?

Or those 4 All-NBA first teams he made during the same period where, coincidentally, Dave Cowens was a teammate of his?

How many championships do you really think he would have won without Cowens after Russell
?

Havlicek wouldn't have won in the 70s without Cowens, but Cowens wouldn't have won without Havlicek, either.  They were both necessary components of those teams (as was Jo Jo, who should be in the Hall of Fame.)

I agree that JoJo should be in the Hall of Fame.  I loved Silas too.  And Cheney, the original shut down guard.  Well, not the original, but an original...

[BballTim]

welcome to the Celtics history, it isn't enough to be a 2 time champ, you have to have 3 or more!  (note: the Pierce inclusion flies in the face of that argument, though I kind of put him in there as a red herring)

also, I've asked each time for "other" votes and suggestions for the list

this is why it is fun to debate   I encourage this line of questioning

The real issue, I think, is that Cowens was the key guy on his team.  Six championships where you weren't the key guy don't compare to two championships where you were.    If they did, Rodman would be above Larry on the all time NBA great players list!

  That's based on the assumption that winning titles is the sole definition of greatness, in which your best player since the 60s would be Robert Horry.

So, was Robert Horry ever the key guy on a team that won a title?

  Was Rodman?

[paulcowens]

So it's been a pretty unedifying discussion.  And yes, I think it's disgusting the total lack of appreciation you guys have for the guy who basically brought us our second dynasty and won us two championships and kept our legend going.   He was underappreciated by the league in his time, and now we are doing it too.  

[paulcowens]

welcome to the Celtics history, it isn't enough to be a 2 time champ, you have to have 3 or more!  (note: the Pierce inclusion flies in the face of that argument, though I kind of put him in there as a red herring)

also, I've asked each time for "other" votes and suggestions for the list

this is why it is fun to debate   I encourage this line of questioning

The real issue, I think, is that Cowens was the key guy on his team.  Six championships where you weren't the key guy don't compare to two championships where you were.    If they did, Rodman would be above Larry on the all time NBA great players list!

  That's based on the assumption that winning titles is the sole definition of greatness, in which your best player since the 60s would be Robert Horry.

So, was Robert Horry ever the key guy on a team that won a title?

  Was Rodman?

Yes, that's exactly the point I was making.

[paulcowens]

So it's been a pretty unedifying discussion.  And yes, I think it's disgusting the total lack of appreciation you guys have for the guy who basically brought us our second dynasty and won us two championships and kept our legend going.   He was underappreciated by the league in his time, and now we are doing it too.  

Ok, I guess I shouldn't say "total".  You kinda appreciate the guy, maybe even almost as much as Robert Parrish who wasn't even necessarily third best guy on his team. 

[PosImpos]

have a nice day

lol

[paulcowens]

Ok, I'm going to try to say a little more about what I loved about Cowens.   He was perhaps the best rebounder of his decade, and a great outlet passer who always looked to spark the fast break.   He was one of the best defenders of his era, and he had a post game on offense that was strong enough to be the foundation of his team's half court offense.  He was an all around player, keying his team in nearly every aspect of their game.  But he was more than that.  He was one of those very rare guys who seem to harbor an almost crazy amount of motivation.  He wanted to take every game and shape it, and he wanted to make it better.  He had his own vision of how basketball should be and that not only drove him, but it drove his team towards excellence and achievement.  He led his team mates and he inspired them.  

Without Dave Cowens forming the bridge between the Russell era and the Bird era, we wouldn't have Celtics Pride today the way we do.  We wouldn't have this incredible tradition.  I read somewhere that it was Russell who saw Cowens and turned Red onto him.  I can believe that, because I think Russell surely would have seen something of himself in Cowens, something of that same pride.  These were guys who redefined pride as something that wasn't about ego and selfishness, but that was about putting your heart and soul into what you did.  

And when Bird came, Cowens recognized him the same way Russell apparently recognized Cowens a decade earlier.

[paulcowens]

have a nice day

lol

I heart you too pal.  Why don't you go haunt another thread?

[paulcowens]

Ok, I'm going to try to say a little more about what I loved about Cowens.   He was perhaps the best rebounder of his decade, and a great outlet passer who always looked to spark the fast break.   He was one of the best defenders of his era, and he had a post game on offense that was strong enough to be the foundation of his team's half court offense.  He was an all around player, keying his team in nearly every aspect of their game.  But he was more than that.  He was one of those very rare guys who seem to harbor an almost crazy amount of motivation.  He wanted to take every game and shape it, and he wanted to make it better.  He had his own vision of how basketball should be and that not only drove him, but it drove his team towards excellence and achievement.  He led his team mates and he inspired them.  

Without Dave Cowens forming the bridge between the Russell era and the Bird era, we wouldn't have Celtics Pride today the way we do.  We wouldn't have this incredible tradition.  I read somewhere that it was Russell who saw Cowens and turned Red onto him.  I can believe that, because I think Russell surely would have seen something of himself in Cowens, something of that same pride.  These were guys who redefined pride as something that wasn't about ego and selfishness, but that was about putting your heart and soul into what you did.  

And when Bird came, Cowens recognized him the same way Russell apparently recognized Cowens a decade earlier.

Russell, Bird, Cowens.  These guys defined our tradition.  Our Big Three are still working on their legend, and I hope they will win another championship and establish themselves on the same level.   I hope Rondo will go even further.   But the reason we have a tradition they can add to has more to do with Russell, Bird and Cowens than with anyone else.  These were the guys who carried our three great dynasties.  We should recognize them, because we supposedly were the one fandom that got basketball, that wasn't overawed by all the bright, shiny statistics.  But I guess not.