Author Topic: Jeff Green: The sink or swim signing  (Read 13495 times)

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Jeff Green: The sink or swim signing
« on: August 25, 2011, 09:18:49 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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First off let me give their propers where they are due. This thread is in response to Jeff's very good front page article about Jeff Green and the dilemma he brings to the Celtics.

http://www.celticsblog.com/2011/8/25/2383453/jeff-green-utility-infielder

Quote
Green is the classic Jack of All Trades, Master of None.  Or put another way, he's a utility infielder right now.  He can fill in at multiple positions but he's not good enough at any of them to oust the starter or even create a platoon situation.

I suppose, as Flannery suggests, that it is too early to write him off.  I'm sure less talented players have developed a niche later in their careers than Green.  In the right situation he should be able to focus on a few things and establish himself as a solid rotation guy for many years.

There are, however, two big issues getting in his way of doing that in Boston. 

First he is a free agent, and if he's going to stay here, he and the team are going to have to agree on his value.  Ideally there would be a one year deal that let him prove his worth (be it the qualifying offer or even a higher one year deal to keep him from jumping to another team for more years).  But the owners and executives of NBA teams have proven that they are hardly the most rationale of sorts when it comes to spending their own money and all it takes is one GM to be convinced that Green is worth multiple years at 8 to 10M per money.

Second, there is the issue of expectations.  Through little fault of his own, Green has a huge target on his back with fans and the media.  Instead of being allowed to prove himself on his own merit, he has to live up to several legacies.  He has to be as valuable as Perkins to justify the trade.  Doc talked about him playing a James Posey type of role.  He replaced both Tony Allen and Marquis Daniels at the backup wing position and doesn't play defense as well as either of them.  If we had signed him as a free agent, he might have been allowed to carve out his own piece of legacy, but that didn't happen and he has to play with the cards he's been dealt.

Will he sink or will he swim?  Will he stay or will he go?  There are many questions with Jeff Green and we don't have a lot of answers right now, but that won't stop us all from talking about it.

Sink or swim seems to be the perfect analogy. Do the Celtics sign Green, give him his minutes in their system while taking them from KG, Pierce and Ray and live with the results? If he swims, great, if he sinks, well then so does the C's chances at one last title shot? Is everyone okay with that?

Because after the lockout if you want to retain Jeff green, my guess is it will take a multi-year deal in the range of more than $20 million, minimum. I am sure that we armchair GMs are all saying we would prefer a one year show-me contract but let's face reality, that isn't going to be what Green or his agent will be looking for.

So if that is what it takes to get Jeff Green, you have to ask yourself this question. Given the two ends of the mistake spectrum that can be made, which mistake can the Celtics better live with and probably overcome, signing Jeff Green to a multi-year, multi-millions per year contract and he becomes a bust or letting him go elsewhere, retaining cap flexibility and watching him become everything this club needs? Which of these mistakes are most likely to happen and which are the Celtics best prepared to overcome while rebuilding after the Big Three Era ends?

Personally, I say offer him the qualifying offer to retain the rights to a sign and trade, if those are still allowed in the new CBA. If he takes the one year deal, great. If he signs elsewhere at 3-4 years at $20-30 million well, it was nice knowing you Jeff. See ya.

I just think it foolish of Ainge to invest a large contract on this player given how little he has shown, how his game seems to have peaked two years ago and with the need to have as much cap space available for the 2012 off season.

Re: Jeff Green: The sink or swim signing
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2011, 09:24:25 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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I am sure that we armchair GMs are all saying we would prefer a one year show-me contract but let's face reality, that isn't going to be what Green or his agent will be looking for.

While I agree that it's not what Green or his agent will want, I think a lot of guys take their qualifying offer and hit unrestricted free agency.  That's definitely the preferred route.

If Green wanted more than $4 - $5 million per season (and he will), I'd let him walk.  I wouldn't let Jeff Green be the contract that prevents us from adding a max contract in free agency.


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Re: Jeff Green: The sink or swim signing
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2011, 09:35:48 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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I am sure that we armchair GMs are all saying we would prefer a one year show-me contract but let's face reality, that isn't going to be what Green or his agent will be looking for.

While I agree that it's not what Green or his agent will want, I think a lot of guys take their qualifying offer and hit unrestricted free agency.  That's definitely the preferred route.

If Green wanted more than $4 - $5 million per season (and he will), I'd let him walk.  I wouldn't let Jeff Green be the contract that prevents us from adding a max contract in free agency.
That's the way I see it too. But if after offering him the QO his agent comes to him with a four year MLE contract elsewhere, I say we have to let him walk or work out a sign and trade for a player with an expiring contract.

Re: Jeff Green: The sink or swim signing
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2011, 09:38:02 AM »

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I think Jeff Green is going to get Marvin Williams money from somebody.

$40 million over 5 years.

Re: Jeff Green: The sink or swim signing
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2011, 09:39:31 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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I think Jeff Green is going to get Marvin Williams money from somebody.

$40 million over 5 years.

Let him have it...  somewhere else.

What teams do you think could / would offer Green $8 million per year?  I haven't bothered to analyze free agency at all yet.  I do think we'll see a downward adjustment of expected salaries once a new CBA is in place, but time will tell how drastic that is.


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Re: Jeff Green: The sink or swim signing
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2011, 09:45:48 AM »

Offline indeedproceed

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I am sure that we armchair GMs are all saying we would prefer a one year show-me contract but let's face reality, that isn't going to be what Green or his agent will be looking for.

While I agree that it's not what Green or his agent will want, I think a lot of guys take their qualifying offer and hit unrestricted free agency.  That's definitely the preferred route.

If Green wanted more than $4 - $5 million per season (and he will), I'd let him walk.  I wouldn't let Jeff Green be the contract that prevents us from adding a max contract in free agency.

Yeah...I'd just hope he takes the qualifying offer.

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Re: Jeff Green: The sink or swim signing
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2011, 10:00:08 AM »

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I think Jeff Green is going to get Marvin Williams money from somebody.

$40 million over 5 years.

Let him have it...  somewhere else.

What teams do you think could / would offer Green $8 million per year?  I haven't bothered to analyze free agency at all yet.  I do think we'll see a downward adjustment of expected salaries once a new CBA is in place, but time will tell how drastic that is.
I don't have any team in particular in mind.

I just think J.Green is in that type of price range. A well regarded player around the league. Quite a few GMs over the past 2 years or so have said complimentary things about him. He is still a young player. Good potential to improve. A weak free agent class. Not much young talent available. A lot of the top wings are old veterans who are unsuitable for rebuilding teams. 

I think all of that makes Jeff Green one of the more attractive young pieces available in free agency. I expect him to be sought after. Have no problem attracting offers.

Currently the MLE is around $33 million. I think a team will have to pony up around $1 mil extra per season to land Green - to separate themselves for the many MLE offers J.Green will command - So that puts him in that $36-40 million type range.

In terms of the new CBA, I think Jeff Green will get a slightly higher than an average (MLE) contract. Whatever the new average contract works at. It'll be relative to that.

Re: Jeff Green: The sink or swim signing
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2011, 10:06:00 AM »

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Teams with cap space

Denver
Houston
Indiana
LA Clippers
New Jersey
New Orleans (if David West leaves)
Sacramento
Toronto
Washington

A few other teams who could move a small contract or two and get below the cap enough to offer Jeff Green that type of money also. Teams like Milwaukee, Minnesota, Golden State, Charlotte, Detroit and maybe even Phoenix could do likewise with a bit of work. 

I see a bunch of teams there that could be interested in a young talented forward like Jeff Green.


Re: Jeff Green: The sink or swim signing
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2011, 10:18:14 AM »

Offline Chris

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Teams with cap space

Denver
Houston
Indiana
LA Clippers
New Jersey
New Orleans (if David West leaves)
Sacramento
Toronto
Washington

A few other teams who could move a small contract or two and get below the cap enough to offer Jeff Green that type of money also. Teams like Milwaukee, Minnesota, Golden State, Charlotte, Detroit and maybe even Phoenix could do likewise with a bit of work. 

I see a bunch of teams there that could be interested in a young talented forward like Jeff Green.



While I agree there will be some interest, I think there is a great chance that the combination of his uneven performance and the Restricted status will scare a lot of them away.

I think Danny still likes him enough that any team would have to overpay him this summer for the C's not to match (at least that is the story Danny is going to leak), and there are going to be some more enticing players out there for those teams to throw their money at.

One thing to really take into consideration is the considerably shorter signing period that would likely take place if there even is a season.  Lets say they get a deal in time for the beginning of camp.  Suddenly that waiting period where their cap space is tied up by a restricted free agent could be devastating.  If they have even the slightest worry that the C's would match their offer, I think they would go elsewhere, because they know that unlike in most years, they are only really going to have one chance to use that cap space, and if they get matched, every other option will already be off the table.

I really think, if there is a season next year, it will take a real maverick GM to fall in love with Green and convince him not to take the qualifying offer.

Re: Jeff Green: The sink or swim signing
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2011, 10:20:01 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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Teams with cap space

Denver
Houston
Indiana
LA Clippers
New Jersey
New Orleans (if David West leaves)
Sacramento
Toronto
Washington

A few other teams who could move a small contract or two and get below the cap enough to offer Jeff Green that type of money also. Teams like Milwaukee, Minnesota, Golden State, Charlotte, Detroit and maybe even Phoenix could do likewise with a bit of work. 

I see a bunch of teams there that could be interested in a young talented forward like Jeff Green.



You're probably correct, in that some teams consistently overspend for what they perceive as young talent.  I mean, if Travis Outlaw can get 5 years, $35 million, then Jeff Green will probably be mightily overpaid, as well.

However, I desperately hope it's not the Celtics doing the overpaying.  Jeff Green is a pretty average scorer for a SF, and is average to below average at just about everything else.


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Re: Jeff Green: The sink or swim signing
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2011, 10:24:14 AM »

Offline CelticsFanNC

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   I'm all for bringing him back at a reasonable price but if someone wants to break the bank for him then let him walk.  Without knowledge of what the new collective bargaining agreement will look like or what kind of cap exceptions there will be(if any) it is really hard to tell what his asking price may be, what his value is and who might make a move on Jeff Green.

  I'd much rather pay him a reasonable salary then Glen Davis.  Green is better now and has more upside.  I've completely tired of Glen Davis act but that's just me.  I hope Ainge can get something for Davis but I also don't want him in Boston next season unless it is the only option we have.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 10:36:27 AM by CelticsFanNC »

Re: Jeff Green: The sink or swim signing
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2011, 10:37:24 AM »

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One thing to really take into consideration is the considerably shorter signing period that would likely take place if there even is a season.  Lets say they get a deal in time for the beginning of camp.  Suddenly that waiting period where their cap space is tied up by a restricted free agent could be devastating.  If they have even the slightest worry that the C's would match their offer, I think they would go elsewhere, because they know that unlike in most years, they are only really going to have one chance to use that cap space, and if they get matched, every other option will already be off the table.
Yeah, I hadn't thought of that. That could really work out in the C's favour.

All depends on how short that signing window ends up being but yeah that could be a real difference maker.



Was it Varejao who as a restricted free agent a few years ago sat out the start of the season to search for an offer sheet better than the qualifying offer? I think it was him. Sat out the first month or two of the season.

I think that will be a valuable option for some restricted free agents to consider. Still, a bunch of those teams will have already spent their cash and the market will have a lot less opportunities. So still an advantage for Boston if Jeff Green did decide to try that tactic.

Re: Jeff Green: The sink or swim signing
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2011, 10:49:27 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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  I'm all for bringing him back at a reasonable price but if someone wants to break the bank for him then let him walk.  Without knowledge of what the new collective bargaining agreement will look like or what kind of cap exceptions there will be(if any) it is really hard to tell what his asking price may be, what his value is and who might make a move on Jeff Green.

  I'd much rather pay him a reasonable salary then Glen Davis.  Green is better now and has more upside.  I've completely tired of Glen Davis act but that's just me.  I hope Ainge can get something for Davis but I also don't want him in Boston next season unless it is the only option we have.
The difference between the two players though are that Davis is unrestricted and Green is restricted. Both will be looking for multiple years and multiple millions. Davis we don't have the option of matching an offer on and Green we do.

But, Davis is a player that has proven he can bring certain assets to the table that this team needs; an understanding of the defensive system and ability to execute it at a high level, versatility at position the team is in great need of(PF and C), a proven ability to perform in the playoffs, and except for his rookie year and the last half of last year, a very consistent outside, mid range jumper.

Green hasn't exhibited an understanding of really anything and hasn't shown he has definitive assets this team needs. He's athletic but the Celtics need basketball players, not athletes and I am not convinced he is an athletic basketball player. At this point he just seems to be an athlete.

I would resign Baby before I resigned Green.

Re: Jeff Green: The sink or swim signing
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2011, 11:23:07 AM »

Offline Celtics18

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I like a bench of Redz, Bambi, and Baby next season (if there is one).
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Re: Jeff Green: The sink or swim signing
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2011, 12:54:17 PM »

Offline hwangjini_1

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I think Jeff Green is going to get Marvin Williams money from somebody.

$40 million over 5 years.

Let him have it...  somewhere else.

What teams do you think could / would offer Green $8 million per year?  I haven't bothered to analyze free agency at all yet.  I do think we'll see a downward adjustment of expected salaries once a new CBA is in place, but time will tell how drastic that is.
I don't have any team in particular in mind.

I just think J.Green is in that type of price range. A well regarded player around the league. Quite a few GMs over the past 2 years or so have said complimentary things about him. He is still a young player. Good potential to improve. A weak free agent class. Not much young talent available. A lot of the top wings are old veterans who are unsuitable for rebuilding teams. 

I think all of that makes Jeff Green one of the more attractive young pieces available in free agency. I expect him to be sought after. Have no problem attracting offers.

Currently the MLE is around $33 million. I think a team will have to pony up around $1 mil extra per season to land Green - to separate themselves for the many MLE offers J.Green will command - So that puts him in that $36-40 million type range.

In terms of the new CBA, I think Jeff Green will get a slightly higher than an average (MLE) contract. Whatever the new average contract works at. It'll be relative to that.

thanks for the analysis. one question though. for the salary ranges you mention above, how many years did you have in mind?

that is, are you saying $36-40 million PER year (ha, ha) or is that over 8 years? 6 years? 4 years?
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