Jeff Green and/or Big Baby Davis for DeMarcus Cousins?

[Eja117]

The guy averaged 14 ppg on 43% fg and 69% ft. He also got 4 fouls and 3 Tos a game and less than a block.  He's not exactly setting the world on fire

He also averaged 8.6 rebounds per game in only 28 minutes.  And he did that at 20 years old on a team with no PG.  The kid certainly has some work to do, but the talent is undeniable, and the production is already exceptional given his age.

I would love to hear a list of 4 legit centers under 28 who were anywhere close to that kind of production at either age 20, or in their rookie season.

I stand by my statement that he is one of the top 3 or 4 most talented big men in the league.  Other than Howard and Griffin, I cannot think of any big man with a higher upside, with a legitimate chance of reaching it.

No GM is trading that away after 1 season without being blown away. 

8.6 rebs in 28 minutes is pretty good, but I think there are plenty on young big men that showed significant promise early on. I just don't think he's that unusual or big time. 

Guys that are young that showed promise in a similar manner quickly

Kevin Love
Noah
Horford
Hibbert - obviously not as good and two years older
Lopez
LaMarcus Alridge blows him away and was his exact age
Bogut was also his age
Bynum was younger
David Lee
Chris Bosh was light years ahead of him and a year younger

basically there's a guy or two a year. He might be the guy in his year. But he's maybe all-starish. Not super starish. Not yet anyway

[BASS_THUMPER]

The guy averaged 14 ppg on 43% fg and 69% ft. He also got 4 fouls and 3 Tos a game and less than a block.  He's not exactly setting the world on fire

He also averaged 8.6 rebounds per game in only 28 minutes.  And he did that at 20 years old on a team with no PG.  The kid certainly has some work to do, but the talent is undeniable, and the production is already exceptional given his age.

I would love to hear a list of 4 legit centers under 28 who were anywhere close to that kind of production at either age 20, or in their rookie season.

I stand by my statement that he is one of the top 3 or 4 most talented big men in the league.  Other than Howard and Griffin, I cannot think of any big man with a higher upside, with a legitimate chance of reaching it.

No GM is trading that away after 1 season without being blown away. 

8.6 rebs in 28 minutes is pretty good, but I think there are plenty on young big men that showed significant promise early on. I just don't think he's that unusual or big time. 

Guys that are young that showed promise in a similar manner quickly

Kevin Love
Noah
Horford
Hibbert - obviously not as good and two years older
Lopez
LaMarcus Alridge blows him away and was his exact age
Bogut was also his age
Bynum was younger
David Lee
Chris Bosh was light years ahead of him and a year younger

basically there's a guy or two a year. He might be the guy in his year. But he's maybe all-starish. Not super starish. Not yet anyway

youth did not get us are last ring

more vets....

[Chris]

The guy averaged 14 ppg on 43% fg and 69% ft. He also got 4 fouls and 3 Tos a game and less than a block.  He's not exactly setting the world on fire

He also averaged 8.6 rebounds per game in only 28 minutes.  And he did that at 20 years old on a team with no PG.  The kid certainly has some work to do, but the talent is undeniable, and the production is already exceptional given his age.

I would love to hear a list of 4 legit centers under 28 who were anywhere close to that kind of production at either age 20, or in their rookie season.

I stand by my statement that he is one of the top 3 or 4 most talented big men in the league.  Other than Howard and Griffin, I cannot think of any big man with a higher upside, with a legitimate chance of reaching it.

No GM is trading that away after 1 season without being blown away. 

8.6 rebs in 28 minutes is pretty good, but I think there are plenty on young big men that showed significant promise early on. I just don't think he's that unusual or big time. 

Guys that are young that showed promise in a similar manner quickly

Kevin Love
Noah
Horford
Hibbert - obviously not as good and two years older
Lopez
LaMarcus Alridge blows him away and was his exact age
Bogut was also his age
Bynum was younger
David Lee
Chris Bosh was light years ahead of him and a year younger

basically there's a guy or two a year. He might be the guy in his year. But he's maybe all-starish. Not super starish. Not yet anyway

I am curious how you are making these statements.

Love and Horford were impressive as rookie rebounders, but scored significantly less.  And Horford was a year older as a rookie.

Noah was underwhelming as a rookie.

Bogut wasn't nearly as impressive.

I'll give you Bynum, who was very impressive when he was the same age as Cousins (albeit in an injury shortened season)...although he had two years of grooming in the NBA before he broke out.

Lopez is a good call.  He had comparable numbers as a rookie, and was more efficient.  And I would not be surprised if he is climbing up that star status, now that he is playing with Williams.

David Lee averaged 5 points and 4.5 rebounds as a 22 year old rookie.

And LaMarcus Aldridge, who you claim blows him away, averaged 9 points and 5 rebounds as a 21 year old rookie (a year older than Cousins was last year).

So, I reiterate, last year was a very impressive year for the 20 year old big man, and he is one of the top 3 or 4 most talented young big men in the league.

[Eja117]

Waaaaaiiittt a minute. I'm not thaatttt far off.

Yes. David Lee was 22 and his rookie year was not that impressive, but his second year was significantly more impressive than DeMarcus' year was this year.   60% shooting is way better than 43%, which is sorta laughable, especially for a big man.

Granted I could see someone saying "well you gotta wait till DeMarcus is 23 or something", but still

Bogut actually also played exactly 28 minutes a game... he scored less with a reb less, but shot way better, fouled less, and got half as many TOs.   

Horford was one year older, and scored less, but got more rebs, shot way better at almost 50%, less fouls, less TOs, slightly more blocks, in only an extra 3 minutes a game, and had a bunch of guys to share shots with

I seem to remember having LeMarcus Alridge on my fantasy team his rookie year and that he was pretty good, but you are absolutely right. His rookie year was awful. But he burst onto the scene his next year putting up numbers that will be tough for DeMarcus to do.

I don't know. The kid might be pretty good, but this past year he was a fouling, poorly shooting, to machine, who rebounded very well.   We'll see what happens next.

He's at a disadvantage because of the lockout, but maybe it can help him if some vets come back rusty

[LooseCannon]

I would love to hear a list of 4 legit centers under 28 who were anywhere close to that kind of production at either age 20, or in their rookie season.

Cousins averaged 17.8 points and 10.9 rebounds per 36 minutes.  Players since 2004-2005 (not necessarily centers) who had at least 16 points and 9 rebounds per 36 minutes with at least 500 minutes played, either at age 20 or younger or in their rookie season:

Andrew Bynum
Al Jefferson
Anthony Randolph
Blake Griffin
Tyler Hansbrough
Carl Landry

Drop your requirements down to 15 points and 8 rebounds per 36 minutes and you can add in names like Roy Hibbert, Emeka Okafor, Brook Lopez, Kevin Love, Channing Frye, Aaron Gray, Javale McGee, Dwight Howard, and Chris Bosh.

Lower the threshold down to 14 points and you can add in people like Jason Thompson, Kosdta Koufa, and Lamarcus Aldridge.

If you just want guys listed as centers who had at least 10 rebounds per 36 minutes and don't care about scoring, then you can mention guys like Andris Biedrins, Kendrick Perkins, Omer Asik, and Greg Oden.

Some of those players are actually 28 and not under 28.  Depending on how you define production and what you consider close, the list of players you want is either a handful or quite a few.

[nickagneta]

I would love to hear a list of 4 legit centers under 28 who were anywhere close to that kind of production at either age 20, or in their rookie season.

Cousins averaged 17.8 points and 10.9 rebounds per 36 minutes.  Players since 2004-2005 (not necessarily centers) who had at least 16 points and 9 rebounds per 36 minutes with at least 500 minutes played, either at age 20 or younger or in their rookie season:

Andrew Bynum
Al Jefferson
Anthony Randolph
Blake Griffin
Tyler Hansbrough
Carl Landry

Drop your requirements down to 15 points and 8 rebounds per 36 minutes and you can add in names like Roy Hibbert, Emeka Okafor, Brook Lopez, Kevin Love, Channing Frye, Aaron Gray, Javale McGee, Dwight Howard, and Chris Bosh.

Lower the threshold down to 14 points and you can add in people like Jason Thompson, Kosdta Koufa, and Lamarcus Aldridge.

If you just want guys listed as centers who had at least 10 rebounds per 36 minutes and don't care about scoring, then you can mention guys like Andris Biedrins, Kendrick Perkins, Omer Asik, and Greg Oden.

Some of those players are actually 28 and not under 28.  Depending on how you define production and what you consider close, the list of players you want is either a handful or quite a few.

And what is that number of players at 17 and 10 which, is below the numbers Cousins had? You keep going lower but what are the number of players that actually HAD his numbers or better per 36 at his age or younger?

[LooseCannon]

Players averaging at least 17/10 per 36 minutes at age 20 or younger since 2004-2005: Demarcus Cousins in 2309 minutes, Anthony Randolph in 749 minutes, Ndudi Ebi in 54 minutes.

Before then, the players to do so in significant minutes are Shaq, Chris Webber, John Drew (who is listed as a 6'6" guard-forward) and Cliff Robinson.

If you look at stats such as PER or WS/48, Webber, Drew, and Robinson were all generally about the same or better in their rookie seasons than their career averages, so it would not be unusual at all if Cousins never reaches a level of play much higher than this past season.

In playing with the stats, I did find that basketball-reference.com lists Cousins as the player with the least offensive win shares last season at -1.9.  That's what happens when you are a big with a worse FG% than Glen Davis.

[The Walker Wiggle]

Four other players EVER. Two future Hall of Famers, a two time All Star who might've been better than Barkley but instead has the ignominious distinction of being the first player ever banned for life under Stern's drug policy, and a chronically injured NBA journey man who was still one of the hundred best rebounders in NBA history - not to be confused with the better known, All-Defense stretch 4.

Also Loose, if you're going to name drop Ndubi Ebi how are you going to leave our own Kendrick Perkins off the list? Da kid put up 23 and 14 per 36 at age 19!! In 35 total regular season minutes.

Also plenty have brought up Cousins' turnovers, but nobody has mentioned his passing? Statically one of the strongest aspects of his game. 2.5 assists in 28.5 minutes for a 20 year old rookie center?

[The Walker Wiggle]

If you look at stats such as PER or WS/48, Webber, Drew, and Robinson were all generally about the same or better in their rookie seasons than their career averages, so it would not be unusual at all if Cousins never reaches a level of play much higher than this past season.

The leg work is certainly appreciated. (Tip of the caP). But given the wildly different career paths of the four players being discussed I don't see how we can even guess at "usual."

[LooseCannon]

There is sometimes a tendency to think that a young player who puts up big numbers is destined for greatness.  However (especially looking at baseball as a model), these young players often plateau.  They have less room for improvement, so their stats follow a different development curve than someone who starts out slower.

I really haven't seen Cousins play, but what I have read suggests that he falls into the category of player with strong physical tools whose success will ultimately depend on his mental makeup.  He could turn into the player who can put up nice numbers but doesn't seem to help his teams all that much when you examine deeper (like Al Jefferson, perhaps) and he could be the sort who will stop working hard and have weight problems once he gets a big contract. 

Is he just immature or is he a headcase for life?  That's the most important question.

[Tw1x990]

jeez. Kings would never, ever, do this.

[Jon]

Regardless of what you think about Cousins, Davis, and Green, it makes no sense for the Kings. 

The Kings are tens of millions of dollars under the cap.  If they really like BBD, they can simply sign him.  A sign and trade doesn't help them in any way. 

As for Green, maybe a sign and trade could help a bit; however, if they really like him enough to trade Cousins for him, they could simply offer him more money than the C's would be willing to match, taking him away from the C's. 

No matter how you spin it, the Kings have zero motivation to give us anything for either player. 

[arctic 3.0]

J thompson is a more realistic target for a sign and trade with sac.
I'd rather have him anyway.
a cheaper alternative would be Anthony Randolph, Huge upside, needs structure.

[CaptainJackLee]

Cousins has talent but he's also a stupid and dumb player - terrible decision-making skills on both sides on the floor, very lazy. So the jury is still out. He can be very good but I wouldn't be surprised to see him becoming one of those overrated fantasy studs.

-------------

I wouldn't pay much attention to his production because it's very rare for a big of his age and experience to be a primary offensive weapon - especially after proving to be inneficient.


Here's the one stat that really matters. Number of PFs/Cs who had an usage rate equal or superior to Cousins in their rookie season:

http://goo.gl/tlKGz

ZERO. Not even Shaq or Duncan. No wonder his stats are impressive.

[xmuscularghandix]

I'd kill to have Demarcus Cousins, everything that's wrong with him also applies to BBD... if a players gonna be a problem i'd prefer he be 7 feet tall with nice footwork.