You look at the old videos from the 60's when Russell was playing, and it's like comparing a game of prison rules football to an intramural game of two hand touch. Aside from the occasional big men jockeying for position for a rebound, theres almost no physical play whatsoever.
You're saying the game was more physical when Jordan was playing...(When Stern already had years to pussify it?) You might ask Lew Alcindor/Kareem about that almost no physical play whatsoever.
LOL....You're talking about the 60s and 70s, right?...When inside play was along the lines of a bar fight? Youtube is not exactly wealthy with videos from back then. I was at a dozen or so games during the Russell era and roughly a hundred thru 1976. I can tell you that in those eras Jordan wouldn't have needed the officials...He'd have needed an ambulance if he'd have traveled the lane with his tongue out. I laugh myself silly thinking about how players like Chamberlain, Russell, Bellamy, Thurmond, Jabbar, Cowens, Silas, Unseld, Washington, etc would have handled being shown up.
No. I'm talking about the 60's...like I said. Russells time...Not Kareems. Not Thurmonds, Unselds, or Cowens. Russells. The whole discussion is about Jordan versus Russell. A player from the 90s, versus one from the 60's. I don't see any reason to extend the discussion into a decade when neither player was playing. The 70s were when the NBA grew and developed the most. By the mid 70's, the league was drastically different than it was when Russell was playing. I do however agree, that there is not much footage from the 60s. Thats a point I've made myself, as I think it may have a lot to do with the glorification of the players from that period.
We'll never really know what jordan would do in the 1960s, or what Russell would do in the 90s. Both are hypotheticals that could never be proven. What we do know, is how each measured up to their peers during their era, and what the NBA landscape looked like during each time in regards to player size and athleticism. Jordan was better than almost all of his peers, at almost everything. Russell was better than his peers on defense, and was extremely limited on offense.
It doesn't make sense to blame Russells inablity to shoot on his era, or to say that Jordan wouldn't have a good jumper back then either, as there were plenty of other players playing then, that could shoot. Just not Russell.
The NBA in the 1990s was a more physical game than it was in the 60s. Whether thats a consequence of it being dominated by less physically capable players, or a result of less allowed physicality I dont know. I just know that it makes the "level playing field" arguement (as it relates to the 60s and 90s) a poor defense. However, I like how you (intentionally or not) alluded to the fact that if any of those players had played in jordans era, they would have been shown up.
Also (even though as I explained, it has nothing to do with the discussion at hand), Kareem didn't dominate during jordans era...he retired during Jordans era.
The revisionist history about the physicality of the game in the 60s compared to the 90s....When Stern had pretty much allowed the game to be turned into more of an exhibition of entertainment and show...Is astounding to me. The activity in the paint during Russell's era was infinitely more intense. One of the big reasons for the low shooting percentage and high rebound numbers. There was less in the way of chippiness (Which is what I think you're mistaking for physicality) because virtually every team had an enforcer and the players policed themselves. Players like Chamberlain, Russell, Thurmond, Gus Johnson, Luke Jackson, Oscar, Baylor, and Bellamy could have starred in any era. Among many others. They would have been far from shown up in Jordan's era. Frankly, Jordan would have won a lot less had he had players of that caliber as opponents. Jordan would have been a superstar in Russell's era....And probably would have been greater than he was in his own era. With his work ethic, he'd have worked harder to gain an edge and would have succeeded without the help of the officials. But he wouldn't have won 7 championships in Russell's era...Unless Russell wasn't there.
The level playing field a poor defense? That argument makes me wonder what era you watched....If any. The Byron Russell incident was far from an aberration where Jordan was concerned. It stands out a little more because of the magnitude of the game and the time on the clock. But like Jordan's flagrant hack on Malone just previous to the Russell pushoff, both happened in plain sight of the officials and was ignored. No player got preferential treatment at all in Russell's era. The officials didn't get every call right...Trust me...Red let them know every single time they didn't.
Jordan was indisputably a great, great player. But to say he didn't have freedoms on the court beyond the rulebook exclusive to him would be ignoring the obvious. In addition to being arguably the hardest worker and most fierce competitor of his era...Jordan pretty much traveled at will. Was allowed to hack at will defensively. Got plenty of rest defensively playing a one man zone until he felt the need to lock down his man. The greatest player of his era, Jordan was helped along by the league more than any player in NBA history short of the messiah. Russell got no such help. Russell dominated more. Accomplished more. Won more.
Russells era was from 56 to 69. I don’t know how old you are, but you claim to have seen roughly a dozen games during the 60s. You didn’t say how many (if any) you saw in the 50s. How can you possibly say after having seen only 12 games over a decade, and admitting that theres scant video available, that no players got preferential treatment? Theres absolutely no way for you to know that. Also, When I say physicality, I am not talking about hacking…I am talking about the overall level of physical contact between the players inside and outside of the paint.
Stating the instances where Jordan got the benefit of the calls, doesn’t speak to the essence of my argument at all. I myself stated that Jordan got more than his share. I’m saying that the level playing field argument doesn’t hold up because the overall level of physicality (inside the post and extending to the wings) was so much less in the 60s, that whatever benefit Jordan was given, still left him receiving more contact than players in the 60s routinely faced.
You’re talking about revisionist history, but to be revisionist, you have to be denying a commonly held history. I have never heard anywhere, that the 60s were generally known for physical basketball. I certainly have never seen any evidence to support that stance. As far as the era having higher rebound numbers, and lower field goal percentages, I would say that speaks more to the inferior athleticism of the era, than to the effects of physical play. If you compare a league dominated by shorter, less athletic (ie capable of dunking) players, versus a league dominated by large highly athletic (ie dunking all the time) players, you would expect the league with the smaller players to have a somewhat lower field goal percentage because a higher percentage would be actual shots and not dunks. Additionally, if you are looking at the stats of the few players noted in this discussion it isn’t exactly a representative sample, as the players mentioned here were essentially giants compared to the rest of the leagues players. Obviously if you’re one of 4 abnormally tall players in a league, you will get more rebounds than a player would get in a league where the heights were more even (ie Jordans era).
On top of that, as someone already said, things like who won more, accomplished more, changed the league more etc. shouldn't have any bearing on this discussion. This is who is the better player, not who is the best teammate, best winner, or most accomplished. Just which one of these two individuals was the best at the game. I've already said (and I think most people on the board would agree), that Russell would win any of those other comparisons hands down....but thats not this debate.
Topic: Why is Bill Russell better than MJ? (Read 98939 times)