2011 CB draft: How does my team look?/division rankings

[indeedproceed]

LeBron is always going to be weak in the clutch, until he wins a championship. Then, he will 'have needed teammates to bail him out' in order to win, unlike Bird (multiple HOF'ers), Magic (multiple HOF'ers), or Jordan (multiple HOFers).

LeBron sucks cuz we hate him. We don't hate him cuz he sucks.

Our opinion of Lebron is definitely fueled by our hatred.

At the same time, the dude deserves most of the criticism he gets.  He has truly carried some teams on his back... until the spotlight shines the hottest.  Then, he shrinks under the weight of expectations.

I have never seen a "great" player play as passively as Lebron did in last year's finals.  It knocked him down a historical notch or two in my book.  As much as I hate Kobe, he was never scared of failure.  He might not always come up big in the clutch, but he's not afraid to keep shooting.

Player A: Carried some of the worst collections of talent in the entire NBA to multiple 60 win seasons, 2 finals appearances, multiple MVP awards, best all-around talent the NBA has seen since Magic Johnson, and most physically gifted player to ever don a jersey. Epic philanthropist, and attracted more new fans to the NBA than anyone since Jordan.

Player B: LeBron James.

Player B makes me wanna throw up, player A seems like a first ballot HOF'er and the best player of a generation.

[Roy H.]

I think IP would have won with Lebron if he'd kept the pairing with Amare.  While neither is necessarily a beast in the clutch, sometimes there's too much talent to overlook.

[StartOrien]

I think IP would have won with Lebron if he'd kept the pairing with Amare.  While neither is necessarily a beast in the clutch, sometimes there's too much talent to overlook.

After two straight collapses, I'm not sure the majority would agree with you. (I would)

[mgent]

LeBron has always picked on weaker players/teams/defenses.  That's where he inflates his stats.  That's when the Cavs always blew out teams while they struggled against the contenders/good defenses.

Same thing with the Heat last year.  I'm pretty sure they were the worst team among contenders vs. contenders.  He would've continued to get bounced by Boston's defense in the playoffs if he didn't team up with Wade.

Sure. And I'd say that's a valid criticism of him.

But there's plenty of superstars who maintain their level of play in the clutch/against great defense.

But we're talking about Boozer and Randolph, not superstars.  Neither are truly reliable number 1 scoring options, but together they'd be dangerous.

[The Walker Wiggle]

I'll still put my team in 2010 up against any other in hindsight given what the players did last year:

Boxers -2010

If this team was healthy going into the playoffs, it would have been very, very good.

Yeah, but Ginobili very much wasn't. But he was playing like an MVP at the start of the season. Too bad for Spurs fans (and my CB H2H team...).

No if we're looking back, I still want apologies too.

Jrue Holiday vs Baron Davis
Eric Gordon vs John Salmons
Gerald Wallace vs Hedo Turkoglu
Al Horford vs Antawn Jamison
Demarcus Cousins vs Dwight Howard

And keep in mind I had SO penciling Hedo "Pizza Party" Turkoglu in for 48 minutes a game before the Roy Hobbs take down piece went to the press.

And then the Suns went on to win the championship. So by the transitive property...

[Roy H.]

LeBron is always going to be weak in the clutch, until he wins a championship. Then, he will 'have needed teammates to bail him out' in order to win, unlike Bird (multiple HOF'ers), Magic (multiple HOF'ers), or Jordan (multiple HOFers).

LeBron sucks cuz we hate him. We don't hate him cuz he sucks.

Our opinion of Lebron is definitely fueled by our hatred.

At the same time, the dude deserves most of the criticism he gets.  He has truly carried some teams on his back... until the spotlight shines the hottest.  Then, he shrinks under the weight of expectations.

I have never seen a "great" player play as passively as Lebron did in last year's finals.  It knocked him down a historical notch or two in my book.  As much as I hate Kobe, he was never scared of failure.  He might not always come up big in the clutch, but he's not afraid to keep shooting.

Player A: Carried some of the worst collections of talent in the entire NBA to multiple 60 win seasons, 2 finals appearances, multiple MVP awards, best all-around talent the NBA has seen since Magic Johnson, and most physically gifted player to ever don a jersey. Epic philanthropist, and attracted more new fans to the NBA than anyone since Jordan.

Player B: LeBron James.

Player B makes me wanna throw up, player A seems like a first ballot HOF'er and the best player of a generation.

I think you're underrating Jordan's all-around game pretty severely.  Early in his career, Jordan put up a 32.5/8/8 season.  Lebron has only matched one of those numbers, once.

Also, Player A isn't an accurate description of Lebron.  You can't only emphasize the good, while failing to mention the bad.  In evaluating Lebron's legacy, you have to look at his failures as much as his successes.  In each of the last three seasons, he's lost in the playoffs to an underdog.  In his two trips to the Finals, he's come up very small, and he was widely accused of quitting in another playoff series.

When you look at all of that, I have a hard time putting Lebron ahead of Kobe, or really, even Wade.

[indeedproceed]

I'll still put my team in 2010 up against any other in hindsight given what the players did last year:

Boxers -2010

If this team was healthy going into the playoffs, it would have been very, very good.

Yeah, but Ginobili very much wasn't. But he was playing like an MVP at the start of the season. Too bad for Spurs fans (and my CB H2H team...).

No if we're looking back, I still want apologies too.

Jrue Holiday vs Baron Davis
Eric Gordon vs John Salmons
Gerald Wallace vs Hedo Turkoglu
Al Horford vs Antawn Jamison
Demarcus Cousins vs Dwight Howard

And keep in mind I had SO penciling Hedo "Pizza Party" Turkoglu in for 48 minutes a game before the Roy Hobbs take down piece went to the press.

And then the Suns went on to win the championship. So by the transitive property...

By that transitive property, Ersan Ilyasova still eats your lunch.

[indeedproceed]

LeBron is always going to be weak in the clutch, until he wins a championship. Then, he will 'have needed teammates to bail him out' in order to win, unlike Bird (multiple HOF'ers), Magic (multiple HOF'ers), or Jordan (multiple HOFers).

LeBron sucks cuz we hate him. We don't hate him cuz he sucks.

Our opinion of Lebron is definitely fueled by our hatred.

At the same time, the dude deserves most of the criticism he gets.  He has truly carried some teams on his back... until the spotlight shines the hottest.  Then, he shrinks under the weight of expectations.

I have never seen a "great" player play as passively as Lebron did in last year's finals.  It knocked him down a historical notch or two in my book.  As much as I hate Kobe, he was never scared of failure.  He might not always come up big in the clutch, but he's not afraid to keep shooting.

Player A: Carried some of the worst collections of talent in the entire NBA to multiple 60 win seasons, 2 finals appearances, multiple MVP awards, best all-around talent the NBA has seen since Magic Johnson, and most physically gifted player to ever don a jersey. Epic philanthropist, and attracted more new fans to the NBA than anyone since Jordan.

Player B: LeBron James.

Player B makes me wanna throw up, player A seems like a first ballot HOF'er and the best player of a generation.

I think you're underrating Jordan's all-around game pretty severely.  Early in his career, Jordan put up a 32.5/8/8 season.  Lebron has only matched one of those numbers, once.

Adjust for pace, Roy!

[StartOrien]

LeBron has always picked on weaker players/teams/defenses.  That's where he inflates his stats.  That's when the Cavs always blew out teams while they struggled against the contenders/good defenses.

Same thing with the Heat last year.  I'm pretty sure they were the worst team among contenders vs. contenders.  He would've continued to get bounced by Boston's defense in the playoffs if he didn't team up with Wade.

Sure. And I'd say that's a valid criticism of him.

But there's plenty of superstars who maintain their level of play in the clutch/against great defense.

But we're talking about Boozer and Randolph, not superstars.  Neither are truly reliable number 1 scoring options, but together they'd be dangerous.

I disagree with your assessment of Randolph.

[nickagneta]

I think IP would have won with Lebron if he'd kept the pairing with Amare.  While neither is necessarily a beast in the clutch, sometimes there's too much talent to overlook.

I agree with you about that year as their offense would have smoked the Gorillaz as there would have been zero chance of Jamison, Salmons and Hedo shutting down Bron and STAT.

[StartOrien]

I think IP would have won with Lebron if he'd kept the pairing with Amare.  While neither is necessarily a beast in the clutch, sometimes there's too much talent to overlook.

I agree with you about that year as their offense would have smoked the Gorillaz as there would have been zero chance of Jamison, Salmons and Hedo shutting down Bron and STAT.

Agreed (both then and now)

[The Walker Wiggle]

I think IP would have won with Lebron if he'd kept the pairing with Amare.  While neither is necessarily a beast in the clutch, sometimes there's too much talent to overlook.

I agree with you about that year as their offense would have smoked the Gorillaz as there would have been zero chance of Jamison, Salmons and Hedo shutting down Bron and STAT.

Agreed (both then and now)

Disagree. He still would have found a way to start Ersan Ilysaova. Maybe at the 2?

[StartOrien]

Let's talk about the disrespect my 08' team recieved.

Derek Rose
Monta Ellis
Jared Jeffries
Rasheed Wallace
Samuel Dalembert

JEFFRIES STILL GOT IT YA'ALL!

[action781]

LeBron is always going to be weak in the clutch, until he wins a championship. Then, he will 'have needed teammates to bail him out' in order to win, unlike Bird (multiple HOF'ers), Magic (multiple HOF'ers), or Jordan (multiple HOFers).

LeBron sucks cuz we hate him. We don't hate him cuz he sucks.

Our opinion of Lebron is definitely fueled by our hatred.

At the same time, the dude deserves most of the criticism he gets.  He has truly carried some teams on his back... until the spotlight shines the hottest.  Then, he shrinks under the weight of expectations.

I have never seen a "great" player play as passively as Lebron did in last year's finals.  It knocked him down a historical notch or two in my book.  As much as I hate Kobe, he was never scared of failure.  He might not always come up big in the clutch, but he's not afraid to keep shooting.

Player A: Carried some of the worst collections of talent in the entire NBA to multiple 60 win seasons, 2 finals appearances, multiple MVP awards, best all-around talent the NBA has seen since Magic Johnson, and most physically gifted player to ever don a jersey. Epic philanthropist, and attracted more new fans to the NBA than anyone since Jordan.

Player B: LeBron James.

Player B makes me wanna throw up, player A seems like a first ballot HOF'er and the best player of a generation.

Epic philanthropist?  Epic?  Did Warren Buffett make the NBA finals before I was born?

[indeedproceed]

As far as NBA players go, bron does more than his share of giving back