Author Topic: anyone else not worried about the rebuilding phase?  (Read 9465 times)

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Re: anyone else not worried about the rebuilding phase?
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2011, 11:28:31 AM »

Offline Chris

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I am less worried about rebuilding than extended mediocrity.  That was always the most painful part.  I can handle being at the bottom of the league for a year or two (max), and I am fine with being a top 5 seed in the East, with a chance at stealing a championship (which is how I see us next year again).  What I am dreading is going to another 5, 10, 15 year span of fighting for the 7th or 8th seed of the playoffs, with no real hope of a championship run.  

Re: anyone else not worried about the rebuilding phase?
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2011, 11:30:10 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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I am less worried about rebuilding than extended mediocrity.  That was always the most painful part.  I can handle being at the bottom of the league for a year or two (max), and I am fine with being a top 5 seed in the East, with a chance at stealing a championship (which is how I see us next year again).  What I am dreading is going to another 5, 10, 15 year span of fighting for the 7th or 8th seed of the playoffs, with no real hope of a championship run.  


NBA no-man's land.


Is there any other sport where the worst spot to be is low playoff seed to just missing the playoffs?

It is really hard at that point to add the next step player.

Re: anyone else not worried about the rebuilding phase?
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2011, 01:05:51 PM »

Offline PortCelt

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Retooling ... not rebuilding will be the narrative. We're talking about Wyc and his partners, not Paul Gaston. It's hard to imagine a precipitous fall based on the competitive nature of ownership, GM , and head coach. Doc didn't sign on to coach a flock of baby geese, and in order to be profitable the organization must keep pace with the Sox, Pats and Bruins.

It's hard to make the case for scoring a bona fide go to guy in the draft like a Blake Griffin. I remember it didn't take long to rebiuld after Russell, but they had Hondo in his prime and White/Cowens developed faster than the rookies in the modern era. No it will be done via trades and free agency. What's important are the incoming free agents. We don't want another Wicks/Rowe era or relive the nightmares of the 90's. Danny is smart and bold enough not to make the same mistakes ML and later Pitino made.

Re: anyone else not worried about the rebuilding phase?
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2011, 01:47:02 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Retooling ... not rebuilding will be the narrative. We're talking about Wyc and his partners, not Paul Gaston. It's hard to imagine a precipitous fall based on the competitive nature of ownership, GM , and head coach. Doc didn't sign on to coach a flock of baby geese, and in order to be profitable the organization must keep pace with the Sox, Pats and Bruins.

It's hard to make the case for scoring a bona fide go to guy in the draft like a Blake Griffin. I remember it didn't take long to rebiuld after Russell, but they had Hondo in his prime and White/Cowens developed faster than the rookies in the modern era. No it will be done via trades and free agency. What's important are the incoming free agents. We don't want another Wicks/Rowe era or relive the nightmares of the 90's. Danny is smart and bold enough not to make the same mistakes ML and later Pitino made.
Here's the thing though, after next year the Celtics will have Rondo, Pierce, Bradley, this year's first round pick and whoever they decide to sign to multi year contracts this year on the books. That's going to be a minimum of $30 million on the books and maybe more. The new CBA could severely restrict their ability to sign big time free agents, though my guess is probably not right away as whatever changes probably will be installed over a period of time.

But 2 of the 3 big time difference making free agents are PGs(which they already have) and the other is Dwight Howard. If they don't land Howard, retooling will be near impossible. Why?

Because there really aren't any other difference making players that will be looking to be moved other than Andrew Bynum, possibly and I don't see the Lakers trading Bynum to the Celtics. Most of the other top players in the league are happy and signed and/or still on their rookie contracts: Wade, LeBron, Kobe, Melo, Amare, Rose, Bosh, Durant, Westbrook, Aldridge, Dirk, Randolph, Joe Johnson, etc. The best I could see the C's doing is surrounding Pierce and Rondo with mid level talent and becoming a low seed medicore team for a long long time.

If they don't land Howard or Bynum as a big man to pair with Rondo or land Paul or Williams and trade Rondo for someone like Granger or Pau Gasol or or someone in that caliber of player, tear it all down, get horrible for a number of year and get high draft picks and start all over again and hope in 5-7 years the talent will blossom ala OKC or it can be traded for vets ala the summer of 2007.

Re: anyone else not worried about the rebuilding phase?
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2011, 02:13:32 PM »

Offline the_Bird

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I don't see any reason why people think it's inevitable that rebuilding is a ten- or fifteen-year process.  It took a long time between championships last time, but there were a lot of extenuating circumstances.

The deaths of Bias and Lewis; let's just hope and pray there.

The decisions to not get value for any of the Big 3 when they were basically at the same stage of their careers as Pierce, Ray, and KG today; basically losing three Hall of Famers for nothing.

Years of mismanagement under Pitino.

Gaston's tightfistedness, which kept the early Pierce/Walker teams from ever being a legit contender.

The inherent limitations of O'bie's style.


I trust in Danny's ability to accumulate assets, I trust in Doc's ability to develop the right young players, I trust in ownership to spend the money when necessary.  The C's are in a much better position to rebuild today than they were for most of the previous two decades.

I can even see Pierce being that bridge now - the long-time Celtic who's going to mentor the next group that comes through, which still performing at a high level.  He's the right veteran.

I can live with a season or two out of the playoffs, if it means we're increasing our chances of breaking through in years four or five.  If this means trading Ray Allen for prospects, so be it.  If that means using the last three or four roster spots on young players with upside, rather than veterans who might have a tiny bit more to offer today, so be it.

Re: anyone else not worried about the rebuilding phase?
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2011, 02:17:39 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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If they don't land Howard or Bynum as a big man to pair with Rondo or land Paul or Williams and trade Rondo for someone like Granger or Pau Gasol or or someone in that caliber of player, tear it all down, get horrible for a number of year and get high draft picks and start all over again and hope in 5-7 years the talent will blossom ala OKC or it can be traded for vets ala the summer of 2007.
I think that's the most likely scenario.  I don't see Boston getting a prime FA regardless of what the new CBA looks like.  We'll probably have to either get lucky in a lottery or stock up on young promising talent and trade for some all-stars. 

After the past few years, I'm not sure if the franchise will go down the lottery drain for several years to get that franchise player or the trade pieces to get back on top

Re: anyone else not worried about the rebuilding phase?
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2011, 02:27:50 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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The more I think about this, the more I want them to roll the dice and win this year. 


If that means adding a contract that hurts the cap flexibility in 2012, so be it. 



As much as we think the Celtics can get a FA to come here, they are not going to get the 4 star players together again that they have now. 

Re: anyone else not worried about the rebuilding phase?
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2011, 02:32:12 PM »

Offline Chris

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The more I think about this, the more I want them to roll the dice and win this year. 


If that means adding a contract that hurts the cap flexibility in 2012, so be it. 



As much as we think the Celtics can get a FA to come here, they are not going to get the 4 star players together again that they have now. 

Exactly.

To me, I think the most likely scenario for the C's to rebuild will involve them hitting the bottom at some point.  I just don't think a seemless transition is going to happen.  So, if they are going to be rebuilding at some point anyways, I think they need to go for it while they can. 

I have a ton of confidence in this teams management that they can rebuild quickly (with a little luck).  But if its going to happen, putting it off a year for another shot at a championship just makes more sense.

Re: anyone else not worried about the rebuilding phase?
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2011, 05:54:12 PM »

Offline PortCelt

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Retooling ... not rebuilding will be the narrative. We're talking about Wyc and his partners, not Paul Gaston. It's hard to imagine a precipitous fall based on the competitive nature of ownership, GM , and head coach. Doc didn't sign on to coach a flock of baby geese, and in order to be profitable the organization must keep pace with the Sox, Pats and Bruins.

It's hard to make the case for scoring a bona fide go to guy in the draft like a Blake Griffin. I remember it didn't take long to rebiuld after Russell, but they had Hondo in his prime and White/Cowens developed faster than the rookies in the modern era. No it will be done via trades and free agency. What's important are the incoming free agents. We don't want another Wicks/Rowe era or relive the nightmares of the 90's. Danny is smart and bold enough not to make the same mistakes ML and later Pitino made.
Here's the thing though, after next year the Celtics will have Rondo, Pierce, Bradley, this year's first round pick and whoever they decide to sign to multi year contracts this year on the books. That's going to be a minimum of $30 million on the books and maybe more. The new CBA could severely restrict their ability to sign big time free agents, though my guess is probably not right away as whatever changes probably will be installed over a period of time.

But 2 of the 3 big time difference making free agents are PGs(which they already have) and the other is Dwight Howard. If they don't land Howard, retooling will be near impossible. Why?

Because there really aren't any other difference making players that will be looking to be moved other than Andrew Bynum, possibly and I don't see the Lakers trading Bynum to the Celtics. Most of the other top players in the league are happy and signed and/or still on their rookie contracts: Wade, LeBron, Kobe, Melo, Amare, Rose, Bosh, Durant, Westbrook, Aldridge, Dirk, Randolph, Joe Johnson, etc. The best I could see the C's doing is surrounding Pierce and Rondo with mid level talent and becoming a low seed medicore team for a long long time.

If they don't land Howard or Bynum as a big man to pair with Rondo or land Paul or Williams and trade Rondo for someone like Granger or Pau Gasol or or someone in that caliber of player, tear it all down, get horrible for a number of year and get high draft picks and start all over again and hope in 5-7 years the talent will blossom ala OKC or it can be traded for vets ala the summer of 2007.

Okay you make some outstanding points, and we both know there is no replacing KG, and it's not everyday you come across franchise talent in the vernacular of Kobe, LBJ or Durant either. But it does make sense to go after players who perhaps can evolve into the class of a Bosh, Aldridge, Westbrook or Joe Johnson.

There are some names out there like Josh Smith, and perhaps Oden to bring into the fold right now. Even J.R. Smith, with some discipline and mind tweaking, can be the offense force Joe Johnson or Westbrook have become. I know it's a reach at this juncture, but could a healthy Oden be considered as valuable as Bymun who has had a injury plagued career of his own? Can Josh Smith mature into a Bosh or Aldridge? I say yes to all the above.

Hence, if they can manage to grab two of out of three it's a pretty nice nucleus with RR, Pierce and perhaps Green. Also considering your point that RR's contract does have great trade value. So he could be moved next year for a player of Granger's elk, and perhaps a rotation guy to boot.

I'm not sure Wade's body can take the pounding it takes, and so far Lebron has performed more like Chamberlain in the playoffs than Jordan. Sooner or later players we're not talking about will fill the vacuum of Kobe, Dirk, Ray Allen and Paul Pierce. Everything changes.

So there are ways not to hit rick bottom, but you can't have another Reggie Lewis or Len Bias moment ... god forbid.

The key is you don't extend incoming contracts (MLE withstanding) beyond next year. For instance ... it's quite plausible Daniels and D. West could resign for the vet minimum and Green extended to a only one year qualifier or a two year contract that can be moved or optioned in the second year. Even if you add Smith or Oden the cap roughly stands at $42-$45m with perhaps one or two cap holds. Will it be enough space to go after Howard? No, but then you can't  have it both ways. If the plan is to contend next season you do as much as you can to bring quality talent that will improve this team's deficiencies. If it's man over board then perhaps you consider moving RR or Pierce because the FA exceptions are going to be used and will count in 2012-13.








Re: anyone else not worried about the rebuilding phase?
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2011, 06:57:44 PM »

Offline gar

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see below:
« Last Edit: June 13, 2011, 07:05:26 PM by gar »

Re: anyone else not worried about the rebuilding phase?
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2011, 07:04:54 PM »

Offline gar

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The more I think about this, the more I want them to roll the dice and win this year.  


If that means adding a contract that hurts the cap flexibility in 2012, so be it.  



As much as we think the Celtics can get a FA to come here, they are not going to get the 4 star players together again that they have now.  

Absolutely, (TP)

Not worth bringing everyone back unless you are willing to make another run at it. Otherwise it will just be a farewell tour. All you need is a legit FA Center, some role players and a couple of good picks you can make another run at it.

Re: anyone else not worried about the rebuilding phase?
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2011, 10:14:57 PM »

Offline greg_kite

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The more I think about this, the more I want them to roll the dice and win this year.  


If that means adding a contract that hurts the cap flexibility in 2012, so be it.  



As much as we think the Celtics can get a FA to come here, they are not going to get the 4 star players together again that they have now.  

Absolutely, (TP)

Not worth bringing everyone back unless you are willing to make another run at it. Otherwise it will just be a farewell tour. All you need is a legit FA Center, some role players and a couple of good picks you can make another run at it.
The thing is, a farewell tour might be the most entertaining thing we'll have around here for 5 years.  I know I enjoyed Larry's last season, even though I knew they weren't going to win the title.  It was just great knowing that I was lucky to see this guy play.
Sure, the C's wouldn't dominate, but we could still get some great games, such as game 3 against Miami, where they will turn back the clock.

Re: anyone else not worried about the rebuilding phase?
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2011, 10:18:18 PM »

Offline Yoki_IsTheName

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The big 3 has one (maybe 2) more run for a championship. Forget about rebuilding for this year and maximize whatever the Celtics have to make sure the team will be stacked even for just one year.

Rebuilding can wait for either the next year or the next two.
2019 CStrong Historical Draft 2000s OKC Thunder.
PG: Jrue Holiday / Isaiah Thomas / Larry Hughes
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SF: Paul Pierce / Tayshaun Prince / Brian Scalabrine
PF: LaMarcus Aldridge / Shareef Abdur-Raheem / Ben Simmons
C: Jermaine O'neal / Ben Wallace

Re: anyone else not worried about the rebuilding phase?
« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2011, 11:34:44 PM »

Offline southshorematt

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I honestly believe that the celtics are in a good position to rebuild. By adding a few pieces this summer, they could contend for a title next year.

I don't believe Doc would have signed a 5 year extension if they didn't have a good plan in place for the future.

After Dwight Howard's comments about him hitting free agency in the Summer of 12' him coming to Boston is becoming more and more of a possibility.

I don't get why people talk down on Boston, saying he wouldn't want to come here. Do you think he is blind to the fact that the Celtics have the richest history in the NBA? That they have competed for a championship consistently for the last 4 seasons? That he could be coached by the debatably best coach in the NBA? That if he came to Boston he would be playing alongside one of the best point guard's in the league, and one that would be able to get him the ball just where he wants it?

He could be a superstar in Boston, the best sports city in America.

Either way they could always try to flip Jeff Green and their 1st rounder's (including the clippers 1st) for a player like Josh Smith; for example.

There are so many possibilities, plus who knows what is going to happen with the CBA.

Re: anyone else not worried about the rebuilding phase?
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2011, 01:05:09 AM »

Offline nora gretz

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Relax...Danny's going after Lamarcus Aldrige+Oden+Luke Babbit (new scalabrine) by trading Jermaine+KG+Rondo, only to absorb the Aldrige contract Portland doesn't want to pay.

Danny hinted by saying Avery Bradely was a top pick in this year's draft (who's kyrie irving lol  ::) )

Can you say Lebron-Cleveland draft day-gate again when magically the Celtics draft the nations top prospect in Austin Rivers  ;D