This team is too close for a blockbuster trade

[CelticSince83]

After reading most of the trade rumors, ideas, suggestions on this forum, it seems ironic that the same people blasting Danny Ainge for making the trade with OKC are now some of the same people that are suggesting these blockbuster deals with Philly, Houston, New Jersey, OKC, etc that really don't make us any better, but are just trades for the purposes of making a trade.  Our top 4 are still the best top 4 in the NBA edging out MIA and LAL.

1.  This team was REALLY close this year to winning a Championship.  Probably 1 scorer off the bench close.  We were 1 contributer away from winning games 4 and 5 against Miami, or the combination of a healthy Rondo & Shaq.  If Shaq could have given us 15 minutes a game for the series and Rondo doesn't get hurt I think we beat them with our roster as it was.  And yes, if we got by Miami, this Championship was absolutely coming to Boston.

2.  I don't really see the Big 3 slowing down that much.  Pierce doesn't rely on quickness or athleticism.  Ray Allen is in arguably the best shape of any NBA player & is a spot up shooter coming off a season where he torched the nets, and KG has never been a go to guy offensively during the Big 3 era so even if he only gives us 13-14 & 7-8 next year that is not a huge drop-off, he is still a force on defense.  Actually, second Drtg in the NBA. 

3.  Most of these guys suggested in trades will make the Celtics better on paper only, are not efficient players, and will ruin the teams chemistry.  Do you really want to lock up $11/mil a year for a ball dominating shooting guard (Monta Ellis) when Rondo & Pierce are guys who have to have the ball to be effective?  Also, Ellis is terrible defensively and gets ABUSED by bigger guards down low which is why GSW is considering moving him.  Iguodala is the only option I have heard at SG that makes sense but at $15mil a year I don't think we have the pieces to make that work.  He also has a player option for 2014, which could make rebuilding after the Big 3 an issue.  I guess we could package BBD, JG and a pick for him (the salaries would probably match), but still that 2 for 1 trade gives us even LESS DEPTH than we currently have.  Our bench would be Ray Allen, Delonte, Kristic (maybe) and an MLE player at the 3-4.  That's not enough with Pierce, KG, and JO needing to stay under 32 mpg.

4.  My thoughts on our bench players whose deals are up...
Bench: 
Need to re-up Delonte, this is a HUGE priority, can get him o the cheap, loves Boston and Doc for taking a chance on him and can play both guard spots, which is a huge luxury for us. 
Avery Bradley HAS to be in the rotation.  Even giving him a couple 3 minute runs a night will help us tremendously in the long-run, I also think he can contribute.
Kristic-  we need him back, and if there is an NBA next year, he will be back, I'm sure even if he goes to Russia will have a K clause that allows him to opt-out whenever.
Murphy- this guy has played for too many pick up basketball style coaches.  he will never contribute in Boston.  Cut him loose.
Wafer- try to resign him, can actually give you a scoring burst when healthy.
BBD- everyone hates him right now, myself included, but considering his Drtg, and the fact that no other team is going to give him a big deal after this post-season, and the fact we have Bird Rights on him makes him potentially a steal at $4-6 mil a year.
JG- can play both the 3 and 4, which at his age, and given the age of PP and KG is huge as he by himself can ensure KG and PP only need to play 28-30 mpg.

5.  You bring this same team back, use the MLE exemptions to get J.R Smith or Jamal Crawford, and then find an immediate contributer off the bench thru the draft and I think this team is fine.  JO and Kristic can eat up about 35-40 mpg and with BabyDavis and JG both on the roster we can prob play KG at the 5 for 8-10 a night.

6.  If we can somehow get Carl Landry in free agency however, I would not be opposed to moving JG and BBD for Iguodala.  This trade only works however if we get a guy who can play 30 or so minutes a night in the post to make up for the loss of BBD and JG.  I would even toss in a first round pick if they added Speights since his deal is up after next year.
pg- Rondo, Delonte, Bradley
sg- Iguodala, Allen, Wafer (split the minutes 20-28 for Allen)
sf- Piece, Iguodala (play Pierce 30 and give AI 18 so he's @38)
pf- KG, Landry
c- Kristic, JO, (maybe Speights, but if not, draft JeJuan Johnson or Tyler)

This team is actually killer with minimal roster moves and a realistic trade.  Does anyone think Philly would do BBD, JG and our 2011 first round pick for Speights and AI?  OR BBD and JG for AI?  I assume the contracts would match considering market value for JG and BBD.

[quidinqui33]

I agree with the original poster completely.  This team does not need to do anything drastic this year.  We honestly were a healthy Rondo from making the heat series much tougher, and and healthy shaq away from winning the whole thing.

I am not sure why many consider this a bridge year.  Danny has set this team up perfectly to sign Green this year, and still clear up plenty of cap space for next summer.  Take one more run at it.  With Green for a training camp and in the system the whole year, make a draft pick with someone who can help with the boards relatively soon off the bench, and another rebounder in the joel anthony mold and we are right back in it.

If the Perk for Green trade had not happened mid-season and people posted it on the boards now at the end of the season, I bet many who do not like it, would say let's do it.  Danny's mistake was he made the trade at the wrong time, not that he made the wrong trade.  He may not have had a choice though.

Regardless, we are set up great for this coming year, and depending on how free agency goes next summer, we are set up great for the future as well.  Even if Dwight does not come (which he realistically will not), then we may have a bridge year in 2012-2013, but we will be young, have money to spend, and I am sure it will be a short bridge.

[jc3celticsphan]

I might be the only one who agrees with you. the big4 will not be traded. jeff green and davis are our only trade assets and jeff green is staying.  We have a solid 24th pick I think and the mle. how we spend it is key. This team needs specialist scoring/defensive. Find a defensive specialist to replace perk. Find a scorer for our bench.

Also the draft plays a big part in this I think danny could look for a scorer with the 24th pick rather then a big man project. I say we grab marshon brooks if available. We can offer big men like oden who are free agents the MLE plus there are some sleeper bigs in the 2nd round key is specialist. Huslte and defense.

Scoring options
Jr smith
Marshon brooks
Crawford
Bradley

Defensive bigs
Oden
Chandler
Deandre jordan
J.O

Also add defensive wings for the vet min
Resign pavlovic/others

We have 4 allstars already key is building around them.

[PortCelt]

I might be the only one who agrees with you. the big4 will not be traded. jeff green and davis are our only trade assets and jeff green is staying.  We have a solid 24th pick I think and the mle. how we spend it is key. This team needs specialist scoring/defensive. Find a defensive specialist to replace perk. Find a scorer for our bench.

Also the draft plays a big part in this I think danny could look for a scorer with the 24th pick rather then a big man project. I say we grab marshon brooks if available. We can offer big men like oden who are free agents the MLE plus there are some sleeper bigs in the 2nd round key is specialist. Huslte and defense.

Scoring options
Jr smith
Marshon brooks
Crawford
Bradley

Defensive bigs
Oden
Chandler
Deandre jordan
J.O

Also add defensive wings for the vet min
Resign pavlovic/others

We have 4 allstars already key is building around them.

Count me in as well. Unless another team is having superstar fire sale it's hard to imagine the Core 4 not starting the season in green uniforms. Jeff Green will be tendered at least the $5.9m q/o ... then likely signing a long term deal in season or before the new one commences. D. West could be offered the LLE or accept a one year raise. Ergo -- next season's team could look a lot like the one that finished in May.

As for the headline of this post ' This team is too close for a blockbuster trade ' ... dealing any package for AI would be considered a blockbuster given his massive salary. The trick is to rebuild a second unit that can help close out games, but stay cognisant of cap space for 2012-13 and beyond. You'd like to see these incoming contracts be kept at 2 years.

So let's assume Davis and Kristic (S/T candidates), TPE, and perhaps this years #1 can be used in trades. A few of thoughts ...

Davis for Landry (S/T) or  ... Davis + Gody/Erden TPE ($950k) for OJ Mayo. Grizz will pick up Young's option. With Gay back, and TA they have enough on the perimeter. Grizz would have a nice front court rotation ... Zebo, Gasol, BB, D. Arthur.

2011 #1 + $2m cash for Ilyasova (400k is guaranteed for 2011-12, but if waived or traded Bucks save $2m for a total cap relief of $4m). This kid is Danny's kind of big man. Hard nosed and a good shooter.

Kristic & Quis TPE for Oden ( Kristic gives Portland a durable center behind Camby, and a little more cap flexibility with the Quis TPE)

If Davis is dealt it may make sense to go after Chuck Hayes (LLE) as a replacement. Although he may be worth more than the biannual exception.

JR Smith would provide more scoring in ISO and off the dribble. Totally expendable from the Nuggets perspective, and exactly the offensive creator we need. A two year MLE would allow him to up his market value playing with a more disciplined team.

[gpap]

I think a shake-up is what this team needs.

The Celts got too complacent down the stretch.

Would LOVE to have Monta or Iggy in Beantown.

They're good enough to help us win now and young enough to help us down the road too.

Especially Ellis, he's a scoring machine and we need offense badly!!

[paulcowens]

I think a shake-up is what this team needs.

The Celts got too complacent down the stretch.

Would LOVE to have Monta or Iggy in Beantown.

They're good enough to help us win now and young enough to help us down the road too.

Especially Ellis, he's a scoring machine and we need offense badly!!

Too complacent?  When I read things like this I just wonder how it is that we all manage to live in such completely different universes.  Because of The Trade, the Celtics were the exact opposite to complacent.  They were confused and unfocused.

[paulcowens]

After reading most of the trade rumors, ideas, suggestions on this forum, it seems ironic that the same people blasting Danny Ainge for making the trade with OKC are now some of the same people that are suggesting these blockbuster deals with Philly, Houston, New Jersey, OKC, etc that really don't make us any better, but are just trades for the purposes of making a trade.  Our top 4 are still the best top 4 in the NBA edging out MIA and LAL.

1.  This team was REALLY close this year to winning a Championship.  Probably 1 scorer off the bench close.  We were 1 contributer away from winning games 4 and 5 against Miami, or the combination of a healthy Rondo & Shaq.  If Shaq could have given us 15 minutes a game for the series and Rondo doesn't get hurt I think we beat them with our roster as it was.  And yes, if we got by Miami, this Championship was absolutely coming to Boston.

2.  I don't really see the Big 3 slowing down that much.  Pierce doesn't rely on quickness or athleticism.  Ray Allen is in arguably the best shape of any NBA player & is a spot up shooter coming off a season where he torched the nets, and KG has never been a go to guy offensively during the Big 3 era so even if he only gives us 13-14 & 7-8 next year that is not a huge drop-off, he is still a force on defense.  Actually, second Drtg in the NBA. 

3.  Most of these guys suggested in trades will make the Celtics better on paper only, are not efficient players, and will ruin the teams chemistry.  Do you really want to lock up $11/mil a year for a ball dominating shooting guard (Monta Ellis) when Rondo & Pierce are guys who have to have the ball to be effective?  Also, Ellis is terrible defensively and gets ABUSED by bigger guards down low which is why GSW is considering moving him.  Iguodala is the only option I have heard at SG that makes sense but at $15mil a year I don't think we have the pieces to make that work.  He also has a player option for 2014, which could make rebuilding after the Big 3 an issue.  I guess we could package BBD, JG and a pick for him (the salaries would probably match), but still that 2 for 1 trade gives us even LESS DEPTH than we currently have.  Our bench would be Ray Allen, Delonte, Kristic (maybe) and an MLE player at the 3-4.  That's not enough with Pierce, KG, and JO needing to stay under 32 mpg.

4.  My thoughts on our bench players whose deals are up...
Bench: 
Need to re-up Delonte, this is a HUGE priority, can get him o the cheap, loves Boston and Doc for taking a chance on him and can play both guard spots, which is a huge luxury for us. 
Avery Bradley HAS to be in the rotation.  Even giving him a couple 3 minute runs a night will help us tremendously in the long-run, I also think he can contribute.
Kristic-  we need him back, and if there is an NBA next year, he will be back, I'm sure even if he goes to Russia will have a K clause that allows him to opt-out whenever.
Murphy- this guy has played for too many pick up basketball style coaches.  he will never contribute in Boston.  Cut him loose.
Wafer- try to resign him, can actually give you a scoring burst when healthy.
BBD- everyone hates him right now, myself included, but considering his Drtg, and the fact that no other team is going to give him a big deal after this post-season, and the fact we have Bird Rights on him makes him potentially a steal at $4-6 mil a year.
JG- can play both the 3 and 4, which at his age, and given the age of PP and KG is huge as he by himself can ensure KG and PP only need to play 28-30 mpg.

5.  You bring this same team back, use the MLE exemptions to get J.R Smith or Jamal Crawford, and then find an immediate contributer off the bench thru the draft and I think this team is fine.  JO and Kristic can eat up about 35-40 mpg and with BabyDavis and JG both on the roster we can prob play KG at the 5 for 8-10 a night.

6.  If we can somehow get Carl Landry in free agency however, I would not be opposed to moving JG and BBD for Iguodala.  This trade only works however if we get a guy who can play 30 or so minutes a night in the post to make up for the loss of BBD and JG.  I would even toss in a first round pick if they added Speights since his deal is up after next year.
pg- Rondo, Delonte, Bradley
sg- Iguodala, Allen, Wafer (split the minutes 20-28 for Allen)
sf- Piece, Iguodala (play Pierce 30 and give AI 18 so he's @38)
pf- KG, Landry
c- Kristic, JO, (maybe Speights, but if not, draft JeJuan Johnson or Tyler)

This team is actually killer with minimal roster moves and a realistic trade.  Does anyone think Philly would do BBD, JG and our 2011 first round pick for Speights and AI?  OR BBD and JG for AI?  I assume the contracts would match considering market value for JG and BBD.

Well I think The Trade was insane, but I agree with you that more whacked out Krazy Moves might just be the exact wrong thing now.  But at this point, Danny couldn't shock me with anything he did.  But yeah, I think we try to bring everybody back, play the bench more this year like we did in 2009-2010, and add a few good pieces to the puzzle, and if Rondo comes back strong - well - who knows?

[LilRip]

given the way the last two postseasons have gone where we ran out of fuel down the stretch (and it most notably showed on offense), i think we'd need guys off the bench that can actually "start" or play really big minutes.

i think the best trade scenario would be to pull something like a Gary Payton or Big Z trade, where a team that's rebuilding has an overpriced vet that they are just looking to unload. We trade away a young player, a nice draft pick and Ray Allen and get him back on the minimum at month's end. something like that.

of course, that would mean that the vet would probably bog down our precious salary cap at year's end as well.

[CelticSince83]

@PortCelt

You're right in that a trade for Iguodala would be a blockbuster team of some sort.  But from the Celtics standpoint, it is a trade that doesn't involve moving any of the Big 4, which is what I was trying to get at, arguing against these trade Ray Allen, Rondo ideas, etc.  The trade I proposed involving Iguodala however, was contingent upon acquiring a solid post player with the MLE, and adds us a top 50 player who is athletic, can score and pass the basketball and is a team player.  Philly wants to move him so we might be able to get him for BBD and Green.  Also, as far as your comments regarding his contract..... he only has 2 more years with a player option for a third.  So as far as not giving guys more than 2 year deals, might want to let a player option for a third slide here.  Plus, it isn't like Green or BBD aren't going to want multi year deals.  Also, Iguodala just turned 27, so he has 5 more good seasons in him.  Plus a nucleus of Rondo, Pierce, and Iguodala going into the 2012 off-season might be enough to lure D12 into town and will still allow us to have enough cap room if he decides he wants to come to Boston.

[Tradetime]

I think a shake-up is what this team needs.

The Celts got too complacent down the stretch.

Would LOVE to have Monta or Iggy in Beantown.

They're good enough to help us win now and young enough to help us down the road too.

Especially Ellis, he's a scoring machine and we need offense badly!!

Too complacent?  When I read things like this I just wonder how it is that we all manage to live in such completely different universes.  Because of The Trade, the Celtics were the exact opposite to complacent.  They were confused and unfocused.

I think the biggest confusion came out of our very own coach, Doc Rivers. He'd place Green and Krstic out there for good solid minutes, and then they'd play 5-10 mins within a few weeks after the trade. Krstic is not the best defender, but he was putting up really solid offensive games for us and rebounding well too. I think after Krstic got injured, Doc forgot how much he was playing before, and Krstic lost his confidence. We got stuck running Davis out at center again, which is a chop-licking matchup for any other legit center in the league.

Monta Ellis is a legit scorer, and plays the passing lanes well, much like Rondo, but with an offensive game. If we could work out something along the lines of a Rondo/BBD for Ellis and their lottery pick, I think we should go with it. We could then grab one of the Morris brothers or a guy like Biyombo with the 11th overall pick.

[CelticSince83]

You want to trade Rondo and BBD for Monta Ellis? 

1.  Rondo and Ellis make the same amt of money, so this deal is assuming GSW wants to spend more than they are currently (BBD is going to make more than the 2 mil the lotto pick would get paid), which may or may not be true, I have no idea.

2.  Ignoring that, Rondo is a better overall player than Ellis, and is also a better fit for this C's team.  Yes, Ellis is a better scorer, which is not surprising since he spends 80% of his minutes at SG.  Rondo has better vision and is a better distributer, so I don't know how even from an offensive standpoint this is an upgrade.  What is Ray Allen going to do?  There is a reason why Ellis and Curry can't continue to play together.

3.  Rondo is MUCH better defensively.  It isn't even close.  Ellis plays the passing lanes and sure he gets a couple steals on a good night, meanwhile he is constantly getting beat on backdoor plays, doesn't rebound for Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline., and gets ABUSED by other guards because of his small frame and lack of toughness.  There is a reason why GSW is 1 of the worst defensive teams in the league.

4.  You are going to toss in BBD too?  We are close to a Championship, at worst, a legit contender and lock for the second round and we are going to trade a veteran player for a work in progress?

5.  PP34, KG and Ray Allen would NOT be down for this trade.

[j804]

I just want Deandre Jordan.

[PortCelt]

@PortCelt

You're right in that a trade for Iguodala would be a blockbuster team of some sort.  But from the Celtics standpoint, it is a trade that doesn't involve moving any of the Big 4, which is what I was trying to get at, arguing against these trade Ray Allen, Rondo ideas, etc.  The trade I proposed involving Iguodala however, was contingent upon acquiring a solid post player with the MLE, and adds us a top 50 player who is athletic, can score and pass the basketball and is a team player.  Philly wants to move him so we might be able to get him for BBD and Green.  Also, as far as your comments regarding his contract..... he only has 2 more years with a player option for a third.  So as far as not giving guys more than 2 year deals, might want to let a player option for a third slide here.  Plus, it isn't like Green or BBD aren't going to want multi year deals.  Also, Iguodala just turned 27, so he has 5 more good seasons in him.  Plus a nucleus of Rondo, Pierce, and Iguodala going into the 2012 off-season might be enough to lure D12 into town and will still allow us to have enough cap room if he decides he wants to come to Boston.

Hmmmm. Davis, Green and the #1 would match up, but I don't think Green will be traded. Even though the deal didn't net its desired results for both teams it was made for the future. Hence, Green is a big part of their plans moving forward and it's not far fetched to say they want him around for at least another year to validate the trade. Also, T. Young fits the same criteria as JG.

So then how do you acquire Iggy? The only contract that could be used in conjunction with Davis would be JO. True it's cap friendly, but not sure if Danny would consider moving him and Davis with Shaq retiring and the ambiguity surrounding Kristic. The Sixers have Speights to back up Brand/Hawess. Would they sacrifice his offense and pay more for Davis? Well BB is better defensively and has big game experience.

No, if Philly trades Iggy, their go-to option in the clutch, it would have return a prime time offensive option and that would be RA. Still, it would take more than RA and the 2011 #1. Let's underscore RA turns 36 next month, and history tells us perimeter shooters over 35 show extreme signs of decline. Ray may be a freak of nature (MJ was too at that age), but Philly would have to rely upon Meeks and Turner for point production, and they may not be ready to fill the vacuum.

Could JO be combined with Quis (TPE) for Oden? Not out of the realm. Be ironic to see him wind down his final year in the league in the place where it all started. Portland would gain close to $9m in cap space. Don't think many GM's would gamble on JO, but you can make the case that Oden is even a larger question mark.

[jdz101]

I just want Deandre Jordan.

Maybe as a second or third string.

One reasonable game against a weary Boston does not make this kid good.

Overall he is still mediocre at best. Cannot shoot, has no post game, and obviously isn't a shut-down defender down low. The only impressive thing is his dunking and blocked shots, which are pure athleticism. Other than that this kid hasn't got a clue. His alley oop numbers would go down if he came to Boston because we just arent a transition team, rendering him pretty much useless as a starting center.

[CelticSince83]

@PortCelt

You are totally correct with the T. Young comment.  J Green and him are pretty much identical players.  Although Young is a bit more polished offensively and a better scorer.

I also agree that we probably won't move JG.  Although I would prefer to trade him now before his value plummets because I don't personally like his game and can't ever see him being the 3rd guy on a championship caliber team. 

I was just throwing it out there because for the Celtics it makes a lot more sense than trying to acquire a guy like Monta Ellis who can't defend for his life and won't pair well with Rondo at the expense of Ray Allen.

Also, I think if they did trade BBD and JG for AI2 then our rotation would be significantly improved.