Start Green over KG or Pierce (merged thread)

[chambers]

2009, no KG


2010, game 7 of the finals where the lack of size (injury) killed them.  


2011.  Rondo hurt.  Only healthy C has a broken hand.  Bench, no show.  


So, in the 4 years, 1 title.  2 final appearances.  2 disappointing 2nd round exit with major injuries.  



Yep, those four starters are the problem.

haha, no one is saying it's their fault.
But the fact is that they are aging and the current roster situation means that we can't make serious moves this year.
So keeping them means preserving their legs whilst trying to utilize the speed and athleticism of Green+Rondo.

There isn't a time machine to make their legs fresher/younger.

[wdleehi]

2009, no KG


2010, game 7 of the finals where the lack of size (injury) killed them.  


2011.  Rondo hurt.  Only healthy C has a broken hand.  Bench, no show.  


So, in the 4 years, 1 title.  2 final appearances.  2 disappointing 2nd round exit with major injuries.  



Yep, those four starters are the problem.

haha, no one is saying it's their fault.
But the fact is that they are aging and the current roster situation means that we can't make serious moves this year.
So keeping them means preserving their legs whilst trying to utilize the speed and athleticism of Green+Rondo.

There isn't a time machine to make their legs fresher/younger.

If that is the case, they better get someone good enough to replace them. 


If one existed on this team, the bench play in the playoffs wouldn't have been so bad.

[thirstyboots18]

KG is terrific in his role.  Find someone to fill the need, don't change the things that are working. 

[Chris]

We need KG as both a finisher and a starter.  Yes, he needs to be in there at the end of the game, but it is also really important to set a tone early. 

This team needs more production off their bench, and they need guys who can allow guys like KG to rest a bit more.  But the solution isn't to poach a guy like KG out of the starting lineup...especially when you consider how important he is on both sides of the ball, and more importantly, how hard it is to find quality big men.

I think you can find an argument to bring a wing scorer off the bench (like the Spurs have done at times with Manu), in order to add some punch to the second unit.  That is because you can replace him with a shooter/defender, and it doesn't really change the way the rest of the starters play. 

But there is a reason you don't see this done with big men (or PGs for that matter).  All Star big men and PG's are just too crucial to teams systems.  Everything is run through them.  And, generally, the drop-off is much greater between them, and their backups than wings.

Now, if the argument is replace Pierce or Allen in the starting lineup with more of a defensive presence, who doesn't take much off the table offensively (think Bruce Bowen, James Posey, etc.), I think there can be an argument there.  But I just can't see any way taking KG out of the starting lineup could do anything but hurt this team. 

[BASS_THUMPER]

kg is a starter..been one since he got to the nba

it will mess up his mind makin him think he cant do it anymore which hurts his game..

[PortCelt]

Moving someone like Pierce or KG to the bench makes some sense to me because it makes it harder for Doc to overplay them with too many minutes.  I would still expect both to be part of the crunch time line-up, but Pierce coming off the bench is probably the way to make it most likely that he is playing something more like 30-33 mpg, if that's what you think he needs.  The same goes for if you think KG should be playing something like 25mpg.

Doc Rivers gets criticized here a lot for his rotations.  Moving PP or KG to the bench is one way to force him into certain patterns of usage.

The idea playing Garnett in 5-5-5 minute intervals vs. splitting his 15-16 minutes each half makes sense. Then you can experiment starting Green at the 3, which would maximize his transition game off Rondo, and enable him to post SF's while KG spaces the floor on the perimeter. That line up flexibility lets KG finish quarters with the second unit that would feature either PP or Ray.

After his scoring barrage in game 3 it was evident he wore down for the remainder of the series. Hence, he can no longer be that scoring force night in - night out, and although the big 3 had great statistical production this season it's inevitable they'll need others to pick up the scoring slack.

Let's face facts; when the new season starts RA will be 36. He may indeed be a freak of nature, but history tells us shooting guards experience rapid decline by the age of 35. His struggles breaking away from Wade may be a pre cursor of things to come. So perhaps he should come off the bench, which could yield more scoring punch on a second unit that squandered away many leads built up by the starters.  But regardless of who starts Green will ultimately play more minutes next season.

Bottom line is the points/possession has declined from 5th in 09'- 10' to 19th last year. Unless RR can develop a mid range game and space the floor PP remains the only consistent creator of points. Green may not be the answer, but he's worth a q/o. The key is not to overpay, and probably use the MLE on a JR Smith or Crawford or perhaps split it for a Daequan Cook and a back up center (Foster, Mohammed) since it's doubtful guys like Chandler, Nene or even Dalembert will be available at the MLE.

[LooseCannon]

No.  The 4 starters are the strength of the team.  The more time they play together, the better the outcome is.

The more time they play together, the more minutes that Doc throws an all-bench lineup out there.  For those who want an explanation of why Rivers keeps doing that, there it is.

[Jon]

I, too, don't get this whole "bench the starters" business.  I also don't get why people think finishing and starting are mutually exclusive things. 

However, I do think that the bigger and much more important point is that Doc needs to find ways to better incorporate the bench as far as effectiveness (meaning trotting out the right lineups) and minutes. 

While I don't think starting Green is a good idea, I do think finding him 30+ mpg is.  Quite frankly these guys can't/shouldn't be playing 38 mpg at their age, and we need guys like Green (and hopefully Baby and West) to pick up the slack. 

[Who]

No

Garnett is pivotal to the Celtics team defense and as a result is an absolute necessity in the lineup.

Secondly, Jeff Green is a very poor rebounder / defender at the PF position and is ill-suited to starting at that position as a result.

[snively]

KG is too reliant on Rondo to contribute offensively and too important defensively to bring off the bench.

Paul Pierce would be an intriguing guy to bring off the bench, if only because he could play more of a dominant scoring role with the bench.  Rondo too would make an intriguing bench guy.  But we're better off leaving them with the starters to maximize Ray and KG.

[chambers]

Feel this deserves its own thread.

Some are for, some are against.
My reasoning is that it's at least worth a try.

Starting five:

PG Rondo
SG Ray
SF Jeff Green
PF Kevin G
C JO?

Pierce= 6th man of the year.

When playing for the Thunder, Jeff Green averaged 15.2 ppg in 2010. This was as the 3rd option on offense behind Durant and Westbrook. He'd be the number 1 scoring option on a team that already shares the ball more than any other team (so it's not like we want him to score 25 ppg).

Pierce has averaged around 18 ppg this year on starters minutes and as the number 1 scoring option. (obviously the scoring is shared around more on our team compared to OKC as just stated.)

The main arguments for starting Green, at least for me are:
1) Getting him in the game early and running the floor with Rondo and utilizing Rondos speed to it's fullest.
2) Spreading the floor and his post up ability against smaller small forwards. (creating match up problems leaving KG wide open for his money jump shot.)
3) Having a genuine star as the 6th man (aka jason terry, ginobli).
4) Resting Pierce's legs so he can finish games at 100%, particularly come playoff time. I feel he had nothing left in some of those Miami games after guarding Melo and then Lebron in consecutive series.

Why not give this a try? I'm not suggesting that Green is better than Pierce, as this is not even close.
BUT, if it can create mismatch problems, whilst utilizing the speed of the Rondo/Green tandem, AND ensuring rest/less minutes for our clutchest 4th quarter player so he is fresh and ready to take over when it really counts, shouldn't the idea have some daylight?

I feel that PP could come in and be effective immediately, because he's an isolation type player who can create his own shot- I feel for Green to be more effective he needs to be running the floor and utilizing mismatches on defensive rotations.


There is also the option (which is just as viable to me), of starting Pierce but cutting his minutes ALOT.

[KungPoweChicken]

While I see the logic behind it, I honestly don't think the move will help the team. I don't think Pierce would like it too much either. He's still too much of a complete player to come off the bench, in my opinion. I think we're all looking for the simple fix for the Celtics, but there is no simple fix.

[Bahku]

This has already been proposed, (with it's own thread), more than once, in other threads, and I'm sorry, but it's really getting to me. Paul Pierce is our CAPTAIN, our "go-to" guy, our clutch shooter, the heart and soul of this team, and he has been since the day he was drafted, along with carrying this team on his shoulders year-after-year, and providing the majority of offense, (he is still the highest scorer on this team).

Please tell me exactly what Jeff Green has ever done on this team to deserve a starting role, and a role that replaces the number one guy on this team?!? The "arguments" put forth here have just plain not happened with Jeff on the floor. I just do not get it, no matter how many of these proposals I see. Pierce is the guy everyone on this team looks for to take over games when we're in trouble, even KG, (as he has stated many times), and you want to sit him for a chronic under-achiever?

Please forgive me, I really am pretty passive about most things lately, as most here will attest to, but this "replace Pierce with Green" stuff has just got me crazy, and has run it's course, (to say the least). Paul is NEVER going to not start, it would undermine everything this team is about, and destroy whatever chemistry we have left.

Paul is as important to this team emotionally, physically, mentally, and spiritually, as Kobe is to the Lakers, or Michael was to the Bulls, (I'm not comparing skills here, so please don't get sidetracked with that). This is the same as replacing Bryant with Luke Walton, or replacing Jordan with Grant. Green has done nothing since he's gotten here but under-produce!

Please, no ... it's not gonna happen ... and it shouldn't.




PS - Please, this is nothing personal, OP, I just reached the boiling point on this particular subject.

[RockinRyA]

My uncle said this idea reminded him of McHale and Hondo in the past.

Pierce coming off the bench won't necessarily mean Green is better than him. I wouldn't say Roger Mason or Bruce Bowen is a better and more important player for the Spurs when Manu came off the bench.

PP coming of the bench doesn't mean he won't be on the floor at the end of games. The starting job certainly has that stigma of being  the more "important" or "better" player, so we can really expect negative reactions towards this.

I get the point of the OP, but I feel Ray would do better with the 2nd unit than PP would.

[wdleehi]

My uncle said this idea reminded him of McHale and Hondo in the past.

Pierce coming off the bench won't necessarily mean Green is better than him. I wouldn't say Roger Mason or Bruce Bowen is a better and more important player for the Spurs when Manu came off the bench.

PP coming of the bench doesn't mean he won't be on the floor at the end of games. The starting job certainly has that stigma of being  the more "important" or "better" player, so we can really expect negative reactions towards this.

I get the point of the OP, but I feel Ray would do better with the 2nd unit than PP would.

Those guys started as bench players and transitioned to starters.




Again, why break up the one part of the team that is not the issue? 

Fix the bench with trades and FA.