Doc Rivers: If we kept Perk we would have been a No. 1 seed

[rondohondo]

 For all the talk of the bench, though, Green or Krstic or Perk or Marquis or anyone else that we put on the floor was unlikely to overcome Rondo's injury. Even if we'd gotten past the Heat we'd have had major issues with Rose and the Bulls. With Rondo healthy we could have won in spite of the bench, without him we couldn't win in any case.

Of course, if we never traded Perk, Rondo probably never would have gotten hurt, as the exact same series of event that led to his injury probably wouldn't have happened.  That's all theoretical, of course, and isn't a strong argument either way, but I don't think we can say "Perk wouldn't have helped, because Rondo got injured".

  Interesting. Would not trading Perk have meant that we weren't playing the Heat? Because Rondo's injury happened as the result of a deliberate act.

Well, it's one of those "butterfly effect" types of deals.  If Perk was on the team, the entire series would have played out differently.  It's unlikely that there would have been a loose ball, or that Rondo and Wade got tangled up, or that Wade brought Rondo down.

Also, of course, we might not have been playing the Heat in the first place, or we may have had home court over them.  I don't believe, however, that the Rondo injury was inevitable, and if circumstances were changed even a little, it wouldn't have happened.

Please tell me you are just kidding around .....

Because if not that is just crazy, now Perk controls who gets injured or not? what was perks scowl going to scare Wade into now being a dirty player and dragging rondo to the ground?

Perk has become superhuman on this board 

[Roy H.]

Please tell me you are just kidding around .....

Because if not that is just crazy, now Perk controls who gets injured or not? what was perks scowl going to scare Wade into now being a dirty player and dragging rondo to the ground?

Perk has become superhuman on this board 

I'm not using it as justification for or against the Perk trade.  Rather, it's just a theoretical point:  if we'd never traded Park (or Marquis, or if Doc had taken a different timeout in Game 3, etc.) it's likely that Rondo never gets hurt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect

I'm surprised that people have never heard of this before.   

[MBunge]

Anyone want to guess what type of player Doc wants for offseason?



So in review:

Talking heads disliked the trade.

The coach disliked the trade.

The players disliked the trade.

The other teams loved the trade.

The Celtics are out of the playoffs.  

In review:

The Celtics were the 1st or 2nd best team in the league without Perk setting foot on the court.

The team's play started to fall off AFTER Perk came back from injury.

Perk does not possess any magical healing powers that could have fixed Rondo's elbow.

With Perk still here, the only people to guard LeBron would have been Pierce and...well, Sasha Pavlovich?

The absence of Perk had nothing to do with Big Baby stinking the court up for 8 of Boston's 9 playoff games.

Mike

[Moranis]

Please tell me you are just kidding around .....

Because if not that is just crazy, now Perk controls who gets injured or not? what was perks scowl going to scare Wade into now being a dirty player and dragging rondo to the ground?

Perk has become superhuman on this board 

I'm not using it as justification for or against the Perk trade.  Rather, it's just a theoretical point:  if we'd never traded Park (or Marquis, or if Doc had taken a different timeout in Game 3, etc.) it's likely that Rondo never gets hurt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect

I'm surprised that people have never heard of this before.   

It really is mind boggling.  If you change one thing, everything changes.

Back on topic, I don't like Doc Rivers and I never have.  He has always come off as phony to me.  He has always put players down in the press.  His rotations and play calling are terrible.  Frankly, I have no idea why he was brought back.  I was hoping he was gone.  I just can't stand him.

[Tai]

I have to assume it's different from the "Trickle down" effect if it has it's own article, but I can't logically decipher a significant difference between the two. So to sum that up, I've at least seen the theory applied.

Honestly, I think Lebron playing like Kobe hurt us. He took bad shots that most of us would expect him to either miss or at the very least missed this season as well as last season with the Cavs (and especially against the Celtics in last years' post season). Against the Celtics this playoff series, they went in. Game 2, Game 4, Game 5, take your pick. Especially in Game 4, with the Heat down 3, making that 3 in front of the Celtics' bench with Big Baby supposedly in his air (according to someone on these forums, anyways..). I didn't even know it was a 3 at the time. It was kinda jarring.

Assuming we got Green to defend Lebron, I can't say that in itself was a bad idea. The trade didn't help, I can admit that, but hurt? I'd like to say Shaq not being healthy hurt more, and I can understand if based on that logic, maybe the trade shouldn't have happened. But is Pavlovic really helping against Lebron if Lebron can make 3s and turn around jumpers with Pierce in his face? I dunno, man...

[rondohondo]

Please tell me you are just kidding around .....

Because if not that is just crazy, now Perk controls who gets injured or not? what was perks scowl going to scare Wade into now being a dirty player and dragging rondo to the ground?

Perk has become superhuman on this board 

I'm not using it as justification for or against the Perk trade.  Rather, it's just a theoretical point:  if we'd never traded Park (or Marquis, or if Doc had taken a different timeout in Game 3, etc.) it's likely that Rondo never gets hurt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect

I'm surprised that people have never heard of this before.   

Of course I heard of it , but wouldn't Perk's position ( the center ) on the c's have to somehow been involved on the play where Rondo got injured ? I don't see how just having Perk's presence there would have made a difference on the play where Rondo got hurt , that seems like a bit of a stretch to me on the butterfly effect .

[Roy H.]

Please tell me you are just kidding around .....

Because if not that is just crazy, now Perk controls who gets injured or not? what was perks scowl going to scare Wade into now being a dirty player and dragging rondo to the ground?

Perk has become superhuman on this board 

I'm not using it as justification for or against the Perk trade.  Rather, it's just a theoretical point:  if we'd never traded Park (or Marquis, or if Doc had taken a different timeout in Game 3, etc.) it's likely that Rondo never gets hurt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect

I'm surprised that people have never heard of this before.   

Of course I heard of it , but wouldn't Perk's position ( the center ) on the c's have to somehow been involved on the play where Rondo got injured ? I don't see how just having Perk's presence there would have made a difference on the play where Rondo got hurt , that seems like a bit of a stretch to me on the butterfly effect .

Not at all.  If you change *anything* at all during that game, it's unlikely that Rondo and Wade collide.  That play would have never happened at all.  Heck, that game might not have even been played at the same time, or in the same city.

[wdleehi]

Anyone want to guess what type of player Doc wants for offseason?



So in review:

Talking heads disliked the trade.

The coach disliked the trade.

The players disliked the trade.

The other teams loved the trade.

The Celtics are out of the playoffs.  

In review:

The Celtics were the 1st or 2nd best team in the league without Perk setting foot on the court.

The team's play started to fall off AFTER Perk came back from injury.

Perk does not possess any magical healing powers that could have fixed Rondo's elbow.

With Perk still here, the only people to guard LeBron would have been Pierce and...well, Sasha Pavlovich?

The absence of Perk had nothing to do with Big Baby stinking the court up for 8 of Boston's 9 playoff games.

Mike

The absence of Perk allowed Davis to play more

The loss of Perk made the lane more accessible to Lebron and Wade.




And I look at the history of Perk and the starters.  Not just a small slice from this season.  They had a history.  A successful history.

[MBunge]

Anyone want to guess what type of player Doc wants for offseason?



So in review:

Talking heads disliked the trade.

The coach disliked the trade.

The players disliked the trade.

The other teams loved the trade.

The Celtics are out of the playoffs.  

In review:

The Celtics were the 1st or 2nd best team in the league without Perk setting foot on the court.

The team's play started to fall off AFTER Perk came back from injury.

Perk does not possess any magical healing powers that could have fixed Rondo's elbow.

With Perk still here, the only people to guard LeBron would have been Pierce and...well, Sasha Pavlovich?

The absence of Perk had nothing to do with Big Baby stinking the court up for 8 of Boston's 9 playoff games.

Mike

The absence of Perk allowed Davis to play more

The loss of Perk made the lane more accessible to Lebron and Wade.




And I look at the history of Perk and the starters.  Not just a small slice from this season.  They had a history.  A successful history.

In 2010 with a healthy Perk, Baby averaged 20.1 minutes in the playoffs.  Against Miami, Baby averaged 18.4 minutes.  Unless you think Doc was going to play Perk and O'Neal at the same time, having Perk on this team would not have reduced Baby's minutes.  Do you even bother to check on this stuff?

In the playoffs last year -
Perk - 25 minutes a game, 5.7 pts, 6.2 rebs.

In the playoffs this year -
JO - 21.9 minutes a game, 5.8 pts, 4.2 rebs.

Unless you're gonna accuse JO of being the reason Boston lost against Miami, I think you need to stop with the "Perk is my precious" stuff.

Mike

[wdleehi]

Anyone want to guess what type of player Doc wants for offseason?



So in review:

Talking heads disliked the trade.

The coach disliked the trade.

The players disliked the trade.

The other teams loved the trade.

The Celtics are out of the playoffs.  

In review:

The Celtics were the 1st or 2nd best team in the league without Perk setting foot on the court.

The team's play started to fall off AFTER Perk came back from injury.

Perk does not possess any magical healing powers that could have fixed Rondo's elbow.

With Perk still here, the only people to guard LeBron would have been Pierce and...well, Sasha Pavlovich?

The absence of Perk had nothing to do with Big Baby stinking the court up for 8 of Boston's 9 playoff games.

Mike

The absence of Perk allowed Davis to play more

The loss of Perk made the lane more accessible to Lebron and Wade.




And I look at the history of Perk and the starters.  Not just a small slice from this season.  They had a history.  A successful history.

In 2010 with a healthy Perk, Baby averaged 20.1 minutes in the playoffs.  Against Miami, Baby averaged 18.4 minutes.  Unless you think Doc was going to play Perk and O'Neal at the same time, having Perk on this team would not have reduced Baby's minutes.  Do you even bother to check on this stuff?

In the playoffs last year -
Perk - 25 minutes a game, 5.7 pts, 6.2 rebs.

In the playoffs this year -
JO - 21.9 minutes a game, 5.8 pts, 4.2 rebs.

Unless you're gonna accuse JO of being the reason Boston lost against Miami, I think you need to stop with the "Perk is my precious" stuff.

Mike

What were their shooting %?


What level of defense did they play?



What were the results? 




Playing small killed the Celtics.  With a healthy Perk and JO sharing C minutes, the Celtics would not have had to play small. 




One more thing, which one of the statements did I make that was false?

[MBunge]

Playing small killed the Celtics.  With a healthy Perk and JO sharing C minutes, the Celtics would not have had to play small. 

AAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGHHHHH!!!!  THE CELTICS DID NOT HAVE TO PLAY SMALL.  DOC CHOSE TO PLAY SMALL, AS HE FREQUENTLY DID WHEN PERKINS WAS STILL ON THE TEAM.

And again, the team was playing great defense and winning games in the first half of the season when Perk was nowhere to be found.

Mike

[BballTim]

Please tell me you are just kidding around .....

Because if not that is just crazy, now Perk controls who gets injured or not? what was perks scowl going to scare Wade into now being a dirty player and dragging rondo to the ground?

Perk has become superhuman on this board 

I'm not using it as justification for or against the Perk trade.  Rather, it's just a theoretical point:  if we'd never traded Park (or Marquis, or if Doc had taken a different timeout in Game 3, etc.) it's likely that Rondo never gets hurt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect

I'm surprised that people have never heard of this before.   

Of course I heard of it , but wouldn't Perk's position ( the center ) on the c's have to somehow been involved on the play where Rondo got injured ? I don't see how just having Perk's presence there would have made a difference on the play where Rondo got hurt , that seems like a bit of a stretch to me on the butterfly effect .

Not at all.  If you change *anything* at all during that game, it's unlikely that Rondo and Wade collide.  That play would have never happened at all.  Heck, that game might not have even been played at the same time, or in the same city.

  I think you're adding too much randomness to a deliberate act. Wade wanted to get physical with Rondo and he would have just done the same thing or something similar at another point in time. The "loose ball" that was rolling out of bounds 20+ feet away wasn't the cause, it was the excuse.

  Having said that, though, "now Perk controls who gets injured or not? what was perks scowl going to scare Wade into now being a dirty player and dragging rondo to the ground" was a much better response than mine.

[wdleehi]

Playing small killed the Celtics.  With a healthy Perk and JO sharing C minutes, the Celtics would not have had to play small. 

AAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGHHHHH!!!!  THE CELTICS DID NOT HAVE TO PLAY SMALL.  DOC CHOSE TO PLAY SMALL, AS HE FREQUENTLY DID WHEN PERKINS WAS STILL ON THE TEAM.

And again, the team was playing great defense and winning games in the first half of the season when Perk was nowhere to be found.

Mike

You mean they had one "healthy Center".  You know, the one with the broken hand.   

The team won 1 title and made it to another finals with Perk.  And ask that team, they would have won another if he had been healthy for game 7. 


But that small sample is all we needed to see with Perk and this team. 

[Change]

Playing small killed the Celtics.  With a healthy Perk and JO sharing C minutes, the Celtics would not have had to play small. 

AAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGHHHHH!!!!  THE CELTICS DID NOT HAVE TO PLAY SMALL.  DOC CHOSE TO PLAY SMALL, AS HE FREQUENTLY DID WHEN PERKINS WAS STILL ON THE TEAM.

And again, the team was playing great defense and winning games in the first half of the season when Perk was nowhere to be found.

Mike

Not Doc's fault. C's were thin upfront. The two semi-healthy centers not the type to punish Heat inside. Ultimately health was Celtics doom. My only beef with Doc keeping Big Baby in the rotation. All in all, Lebron+Referees+Wade were too much to overcome.

[Roy H.]

I think you're adding too much randomness to a deliberate act. Wade wanted to get physical with Rondo and he would have just done the same thing or something similar at another point in time. The "loose ball" that was rolling out of bounds 20+ feet away wasn't the cause, it was the excuse.

  Having said that, though, "now Perk controls who gets injured or not? what was perks scowl going to scare Wade into now being a dirty player and dragging rondo to the ground" was a much better response than mine.

Eh.  I think that Wade took advantage on an opportunity to take Rondo to the floor hard, but I don't think he went into the game or series with the intent to injure him and take him out.  I do think it was a pretty random play, and Wade made a routine play dirty by taking Rondo down harder than necessary.