2011 CB Historical Draft - Draft Thread

[KCattheStripe]

The Seattle Supersonics: So Good, They're Not Even Worth Talking About.

[Moranis]

I'm struggling to come up with an example, but I'm sure there is one:

Is there a basketball equivalent to A-Rod (pre-world series win)? Somebody who put/s up incredible numbers in the regular seasons but consistently fails when the stakes are high? (Personally, I don't think Lebron fits the bill here)

The ARod failing in the post season is way overblown.  He struggled a couple of seasons in the middle of the Yankee runs (05, 06 and 07), the years the whole Yankees team was pretty poor, but ARod was pretty good in 97, 00, and 04 in the playoffs.  

[Moranis]

Question for everyone:  How many NBA champions are on your roster?

Follow up:  Do you know how many Denver has?

Every Denver player has one.

Miami has 7. We do have 2 Finals Mvps, while Denver has zero.

it only counts if you actually use a year the team won a title.

Why?  A champion is a champion.

Not if you don't take the season they won the championship.  This is a one season exercise not a career exercise.  Bob McAdoo was the MVP in 74-75, put up monster numbers, but he didn't win a title until he was the 6th man on two Lakers teams in the 80's.  I really can't utilize his MVP season and try to piggy back the championship experience he gained much later.

Just the way I see it, if you don't use a title season you can't say your player was a NBA champion.  I'm sure others will disagree with my take, but in a one season and only one season snap shot, I don't think you can use experience, awards, etc. from prior or future seasons to better your team.  I think you can make an argument for certain things, but for me to call McAdoo a champion when I'm not using a championship season just doesn't sit well with me.

[Redz]

I'm struggling to come up with an example, but I'm sure there is one:

Is there a basketball equivalent to A-Rod (pre-world series win)? Somebody who put/s up incredible numbers in the regular seasons but consistently fails when the stakes are high? (Personally, I don't think Lebron fits the bill here)

The ARod failing in the post season is way overblown.  He struggled a couple of seasons in the middle of the Yankee runs (05, 06 and 07), the years the whole Yankees team was pretty poor, but ARod was pretty good in 97, 00, and 04 in the playoffs.  

ARod in `04 vs the Sox:

Games 1-3 6-14
Games 4-7 2-17

[KCattheStripe]

Question for everyone:  How many NBA champions are on your roster?

Follow up:  Do you know how many Denver has?

Every Denver player has one.

Miami has 7. We do have 2 Finals Mvps, while Denver has zero.

it only counts if you actually use a year the team won a title.

Why?  A champion is a champion.

Not if you don't take the season they won the championship.  This is a one season exercise not a career exercise.  Bob McAdoo was the MVP in 74-75, put up monster numbers, but he didn't win a title until he was the 6th man on two Lakers teams in the 80's.  I really can't utilize his MVP season and try to piggy back the championship experience he gained much later.

Just the way I see it, if you don't use a title season you can't say your player was a NBA champion.  I'm sure others will disagree with my take, but in a one season and only one season snap shot, I don't think you can use experience, awards, etc. from prior or future seasons to better your team.  I think you can make an argument for certain things, but for me to call McAdoo a champion when I'm not using a championship season just doesn't sit well with me.

I'm cool with calling a champion a champion if he's already won one.

[mgent]

Best Run N Gun Team: Toss up between Denver and Indiana, with Indiana probably slightly ahead. Oscar with Clyde and Dr J is potent but a part of great Run N Guns is a front court that can rebound and outlet. Parish is middle of the road as a rebounder in this game and neither he nor most of the very talented PFs on Denver were known for their passing ability. Nash, Wade, Barkley and Marion on the break being fed the ball from Russell is just scary.

You really feel that Russell's outlet passing is so outrageous that it makes up for the play at the other basket?  Sure, he was great, but it's not like any of my guys were horrible passers incapable of making an outlet pass to start the break.  I think you're overrating it a tad here.

[mgent]

Question for everyone:  How many NBA champions are on your roster?

Follow up:  Do you know how many Denver has?

Every Denver player has one.

Miami has 7. We do have 2 Finals Mvps, while Denver has zero.

it only counts if you actually use a year the team won a title.

Why?  A champion is a champion.

Not if you don't take the season they won the championship.  This is a one season exercise not a career exercise.  Bob McAdoo was the MVP in 74-75, put up monster numbers, but he didn't win a title until he was the 6th man on two Lakers teams in the 80's.  I really can't utilize his MVP season and try to piggy back the championship experience he gained much later.

Just the way I see it, if you don't use a title season you can't say your player was a NBA champion.  I'm sure others will disagree with my take, but in a one season and only one season snap shot, I don't think you can use experience, awards, etc. from prior or future seasons to better your team.  I think you can make an argument for certain things, but for me to call McAdoo a champion when I'm not using a championship season just doesn't sit well with me.

I wasn't asking who currently just won a championship, I was looking for champions.  You obviously can't utilize McAdoo's later playoff experience but that doesn't change the fact that he was a championship-level talent.

[Moranis]

Question for everyone:  How many NBA champions are on your roster?

Follow up:  Do you know how many Denver has?

Every Denver player has one.

Miami has 7. We do have 2 Finals Mvps, while Denver has zero.

it only counts if you actually use a year the team won a title.

Why?  A champion is a champion.

Not if you don't take the season they won the championship.  This is a one season exercise not a career exercise.  Bob McAdoo was the MVP in 74-75, put up monster numbers, but he didn't win a title until he was the 6th man on two Lakers teams in the 80's.  I really can't utilize his MVP season and try to piggy back the championship experience he gained much later.

Just the way I see it, if you don't use a title season you can't say your player was a NBA champion.  I'm sure others will disagree with my take, but in a one season and only one season snap shot, I don't think you can use experience, awards, etc. from prior or future seasons to better your team.  I think you can make an argument for certain things, but for me to call McAdoo a champion when I'm not using a championship season just doesn't sit well with me.

I wasn't asking who currently just won a championship, I was looking for champions.  You obviously can't utilize McAdoo's later playoff experience but that doesn't change the fact that he was a championship-level talent.

well virtually everyone on every team is championship-level talent

[mgent]

Question for everyone:  How many NBA champions are on your roster?

Follow up:  Do you know how many Denver has?

Every Denver player has one.

Miami has 7. We do have 2 Finals Mvps, while Denver has zero.

it only counts if you actually use a year the team won a title.

Why?  A champion is a champion.

Not if you don't take the season they won the championship.  This is a one season exercise not a career exercise.  Bob McAdoo was the MVP in 74-75, put up monster numbers, but he didn't win a title until he was the 6th man on two Lakers teams in the 80's.  I really can't utilize his MVP season and try to piggy back the championship experience he gained much later.

Just the way I see it, if you don't use a title season you can't say your player was a NBA champion.  I'm sure others will disagree with my take, but in a one season and only one season snap shot, I don't think you can use experience, awards, etc. from prior or future seasons to better your team.  I think you can make an argument for certain things, but for me to call McAdoo a champion when I'm not using a championship season just doesn't sit well with me.

I wasn't asking who currently just won a championship, I was looking for champions.  You obviously can't utilize McAdoo's later playoff experience but that doesn't change the fact that he was a championship-level talent.

well virtually everyone on every team is championship-level talent

Prove it.

I don't know why I'm getting so much resistance by saying a guy who has actually won a championship has a better chance of winning a championship.

[nickagneta]

Best Run N Gun Team: Toss up between Denver and Indiana, with Indiana probably slightly ahead. Oscar with Clyde and Dr J is potent but a part of great Run N Guns is a front court that can rebound and outlet. Parish is middle of the road as a rebounder in this game and neither he nor most of the very talented PFs on Denver were known for their passing ability. Nash, Wade, Barkley and Marion on the break being fed the ball from Russell is just scary.

You really feel that Russell's outlet passing is so outrageous that it makes up for the play at the other basket?  Sure, he was great, but it's not like any of my guys were horrible passers incapable of making an outlet pass to start the break.  I think you're overrating it a tad here.

I don't think I am. Russell was famous for not only blocking shots but being able to block them in the direction of his team mates so they could start a fast break. He constantly criticizes modern players who would rather knock the ball into the third row and flex and pose rather than blocking the ball in the direction of a team mate top start a fast break.

60's Celtics basketball was predicated upon the same philosophy which was getting the rebound, outletting it to a breaking Cousy or Jones and having people run the lanes and finish. The most important part of that philosophy was the outlet pass where Heinsohn and Russell were magnificent at.

I don't think I can stress enough that in a true fast break offense the importance of an great rebounder who could outlet the ball. Russell was amazing at it. Parish was okay at best and therein lies the difference in your team being just that much less effective at being, IMHO, the best fast break team, Chicago excluded, of course.

[Donoghus]

Question for everyone:  How many NBA champions are on your roster?

Follow up:  Do you know how many Denver has?

Every Denver player has one.

Miami has 7. We do have 2 Finals Mvps, while Denver has zero.

it only counts if you actually use a year the team won a title.

Why?  A champion is a champion.

Not if you don't take the season they won the championship.  This is a one season exercise not a career exercise.  Bob McAdoo was the MVP in 74-75, put up monster numbers, but he didn't win a title until he was the 6th man on two Lakers teams in the 80's.  I really can't utilize his MVP season and try to piggy back the championship experience he gained much later.

Just the way I see it, if you don't use a title season you can't say your player was a NBA champion.  I'm sure others will disagree with my take, but in a one season and only one season snap shot, I don't think you can use experience, awards, etc. from prior or future seasons to better your team.  I think you can make an argument for certain things, but for me to call McAdoo a champion when I'm not using a championship season just doesn't sit well with me.

I wasn't asking who currently just won a championship, I was looking for champions.  You obviously can't utilize McAdoo's later playoff experience but that doesn't change the fact that he was a championship-level talent.

well virtually everyone on every team is championship-level talent

Prove it.

I don't know why I'm getting so much resistance by saying a guy who has actually won a championship has a better chance of winning a championship.

Championship-level talent is pretty much subjective in nature while a champion can be illustrated by a ring.

Championship experience is pretty much overblown in my eyes for this exercise and carries very little weight with me since all the rosters here are littered with guys with rings.  Everyone pretty much cancels everyone else out in my book.  

In other words, rings are pretty far down the totem pole in my judging.

[Who]

Best Run N Gun Team: Toss up between Denver and Indiana, with Indiana probably slightly ahead. Oscar with Clyde and Dr J is potent but a part of great Run N Guns is a front court that can rebound and outlet. Parish is middle of the road as a rebounder in this game and neither he nor most of the very talented PFs on Denver were known for their passing ability. Nash, Wade, Barkley and Marion on the break being fed the ball from Russell is just scary.

You really feel that Russell's outlet passing is so outrageous that it makes up for the play at the other basket?  Sure, he was great, but it's not like any of my guys were horrible passers incapable of making an outlet pass to start the break.  I think you're overrating it a tad here.

I don't think I am. Russell was famous for not only blocking shots but being able to block them in the direction of his team mates so they could start a fast break. He constantly criticizes modern players who would rather knock the ball into the third row and flex and pose rather than blocking the ball in the direction of a team mate top start a fast break.

60's Celtics basketball was predicated upon the same philosophy which was getting the rebound, outletting it to a breaking Cousy or Jones and having people run the lanes and finish. The most important part of that philosophy was the outlet pass where Heinsohn and Russell were magnificent at.

I don't think I can stress enough that in a true fast break offense the importance of an great rebounder who could outlet the ball. Russell was amazing at it. Parish was okay at best and therein lies the difference in your team being just that much less effective at being, IMHO, the best fast break team, Chicago excluded, of course.

Alonzo Mourning (backup C) made a point of keeping the ball in play and trying to direct the swatted shot to a teammate when he blocked shots too.

Alonzo wasn't all that good as an outlet passer though. Not bad but not above average either. Ordinary.

[Who]

Is there any team that doesn't have a couple of Champions amongst it's top 5/6 guys?

That would bother me.

Other than that, I couldn't care less. Everyone seems to have Championship experience.

[nickagneta]

Do players like Gary Payton or Sam Cassell or Steve Smith who jumped on the end of a bench at the end of their careers to win a championship while playing sparingly or quite awful, really make them championship level players their entire careers?

To me a championship caliber player is an player that during their prime was an integral part of winning a championship. The greats come to mind, of course, but a player like Sean Elliott, Robert Horry, John Salley, Danny Ainge, or Kurt Rambis, in my mind, would seem to fit the designation as a championship level player before a guy who got old and decided to jump on the end of a bench to get his ring because in his prime he couldn't do it.

Just one man's opinion. 

[Moranis]

Do players like Gary Payton or Sam Cassell or Steve Smith who jumped on the end of a bench at the end of their careers to win a championship while playing sparingly or quite awful, really make them championship level players their entire careers?

To me a championship caliber player is an player that during their prime was an integral part of winning a championship. The greats come to mind, of course, but a player like Sean Elliott, Robert Horry, John Salley, Danny Ainge, or Kurt Rambis, in my mind, would seem to fit the designation as a championship level player before a guy who got old and decided to jump on the end of a bench to get his ring because in his prime he couldn't do it.

Just one man's opinion. 

Karl Malone is a championship level player and he never won a championship.  So is Charles Barkley.  So is Patrick Ewing.  So are the modern players that have yet to win like Dirk, Kidd, James, etc.  Winning a championship is about having a team capable of winning a championship, some guys have it, some guys don't.

I mean would you rather have Robert Horry or Karl Malone?  Which would you consider a championship level player?  Winning a championship doesn't make you a championship level player or give you championship level talent, it just makes you a part of a team that won a championship. 


For these purposes I don't consider anyone a champion unless his team won the championship in the year selected.  Of course that has no bearing at all on how good I think the player is.