2011 CB Historical Draft - Draft Thread

[KCattheStripe]

The Seattle Supersonics select a tough, defensive minded, passionate warrior to piar in the frontcourt with Hakeem whose Jumper will make gor a great high post low post attack:



Dave Cowens.

KC is definitely a man on a mission.

[Bahku]

The Seattle Supersonics select a tough, defensive minded, passionate warrior to piar in the frontcourt with Hakeem whose Jumper will make gor a great high post low post attack:



Dave Cowens.

KC is definitely a man on a mission.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKZSqd5Y8nA

[indeedproceed]

Edgar - I was going to PM you with this, but you have had a negative slant towards every single pick of mine.

Would you like to discuss in the thread or PM?

If there is Bias here - whether it's towards Me, my team (Lakers on a CelticsBlog), or my picks it just seems strange.

Edgar has had a negative outlook on just about everybody's pick thus far.  Don't take it personally.

I like the Payton pick.  He wouldn't have been the first PG I took, but he would have been in the top five.

I agree. In a draft like this, Gary Payton would've been one of my 'sleeper' picks. I'd surround him with shooters and competent defenders, and he'd make the difference then. Great pick, just not a good shooter from outside. He needs to make his bones on the defensive end, and in penetration and in the post, which he's more than capable of.

[indeedproceed]

Well, all I ask folks here to do is NOT judge Gary Payton on his days in Boston - he was well onto the latter portion of his playing career here and couldn't put the team on his back quite as much.

He was a shell of the GP then compared to the one in Seattle/OKC.

But in Seattle/OKC? All that stopped he and his team from a Banner was CHI.

I think you mistake the way that some (at least I) see Gary Payton.

I see him personally as an elite two-way player. An elite historic defender, and a more than adequate offensive PG, especially when surrounded by players who can finish and hit an open shot.

Putting any emphasis on Gary Payton's long range jumper abilities is a lost cause IMO, because that simply was not a strength in his game. He was better with the ball in his hands, and making plays, he was no Derek Fisher or John Stockton, he didn't make his bones behind the 3pt line, he made them abusing smaller and less able PG's, and by limiting the opposing teams' best 1 or 2 guard, depending on the situation. That's where his value lies, both in his career, and to your squad. Great player, no doubt, but not a great shooter..if he's left to that, its like telling a wolf to just play fetch. They're at their best when left to hunt.

[Who]

With the 8th pick in the 3rd Round of the 2011 CB Historical Draft the Chicago Bulls select:

Bill Walton

Best Player drafted since the first round.

Bill Walton should have been a first round pick (instead of Kobe).

[Who]

Thoughts on the Hakeem/Cowens/Pippen frontline?

I like Cowens more as an undersized C than an average sized PF.

I think he'll be less of an offensive threat at the four. Loses his quickness advantage.

His jump shooting, driving ability and passing ability ... quality defenders at the four spot are better able to defend those attributes than centers are ... Also, lessens the great advantage he had in transition.

[Who]

Thoughts on my Wilt-McHale-Barry frontline?

Very good, and sound fundamentally. I'd have my concerns with them being able to keep up with some of the more athletic teams if I were you.

Wilt and Mchale were athletes.

How do you see them doing against the Dirk-D12 combo?

Wilt Chamberlain absolutely destroys Dwight Howard. It's not even close. He'll kill Dwight.

Dwight Howard cannot matchup effectively against a guy with Wilt's sheer size, length and quickness. Too big, too athletic. He takes away all of Dwight's normal advantages and creates those physical advantages for himself (disadvantages for Dwight, which he doesn't handle well due to his limited offensive range - by range, I don't mean shooting range but the total number of things he can do well offensively).

Wilt will completely and utterly shut down Dwight Howard's offensive game and he'll score comfortably on Dwight on the other end of the floor. Plus, he'll out-rebound Dwight. In conclusion, he'll pummel Dwight.

I think McHale and Dirk is pretty much a wash.

I'd give the nod to McHale over a younger version of Dirk but call it a wash with a more recent Dirk (post game, physical toughness offensively Dirk).

Kevin McHale is pretty close to the ideal man-to-man defender to throw at Dirk Nowitzki. He'll defend Dirk about as well as anyone can. Still, McHale can't neutralize Dirk, he'll just do as much as one can do. Dirk is a freakishly talented offensive player and he'll cause lots of problems. On the other end of the floor, Dirk simply isn't a good enough defender to keep McHale under wraps. So he'll likely give up as much as gets. A wash.

[Bahku]

Thoughts on my Wilt-McHale-Barry frontline?

Very good, and sound fundamentally. I'd have my concerns with them being able to keep up with some of the more athletic teams if I were you.

Wilt and Mchale were athletes.

How do you see them doing against the Dirk-D12 combo?

Wilt Chamberlain absolutely destroys Dwight Howard. It's not even close. He'll kill Dwight.

Dwight Howard cannot matchup effectively against a guy with Wilt's sheer size, length and quickness. Too big, too athletic. He takes away all of Dwight's normal advantages and creates those physical advantages for himself (disadvantages for Dwight, which he doesn't handle well due to his limited offensive range - by range, I don't mean shooting range but the total number of things he can do well offensively).

Wilt will completely and utterly shut down Dwight Howard's offensive game and he'll score comfortably on Dwight on the other end of the floor. Plus, he'll out-rebound Dwight. In conclusion, he'll pummel Dwight.

I think McHale and Dirk is pretty much a wash.

I'd give the nod to McHale over a younger version of Dirk but call it a wash with a more recent Dirk (post game, physical toughness offensively Dirk).

Kevin McHale is pretty close to the ideal man-to-man defender to throw at Dirk Nowitzki. He'll defend Dirk about as well as anyone can. Still, McHale can't neutralize Dirk, he'll just do as much as one can do. Dirk is a freakishly talented offensive player and he'll cause lots of problems. On the other end of the floor, Dirk simply isn't a good enough defender to keep McHale under wraps. So he'll likely give up as much as gets. A wash.

And a Howard/Nowitzki duo with Jordan leading will run Wilt and McHale into the ground ... they have height and power, but no speed, and no outside threat like Dirk is ... not even close. This isn't about one-on-one, it's about building teams. And Bill Walton in the first round?!? He is a Top Ten Center for sure, but not a first-round pick. Sorry, Who ... I once voted you best on CB at player analysis, but this undermines that view a bit.

[Rondo2287]

Still  trying to move up to the begining of this round, PM me if interested

[Redz]

I added a Team Rosters section to the first page of the thread below the draft board. Thought it might be helpful.

TP for all the work, Buddy. (And one to Edgar for the critique ... even though he hates my team. )

Thanks.

I do this draft for four reasons:

1. I love the drafts here at Celticsblog, they make the season/offseason fly by.

2. I love the discussion/debate of comparing players from different years/eras.

3. I believe this can really teach people about basketball history if they feel inclined to research players and eras they don't know a lot about. If this gets one person to read a book on basketball history or a basketball related biography/autobiography, that makes me feel awesome.

4. I thought Celticsblog could use four great drafts(CB Draft, Ultimate Draft, Pick 2 Draft being the others) to space things out and figured the mods could use a break in running a 4th.

Not sure the Ultimate Draft qualifies as a "great draft" but certainly the silliest.

I actually enjoy this one the most, though I'm not sure where we go from here next year.  Maybe have a draft consisting only of players who never made an All Star Game - show some real depth and probably bore the heck out of us. Hmmm...

I'm sure you'll think something up Nick.

[nickagneta]

And a Howard/Nowitzki duo with Jordan leading will run Wilt and McHale into the ground ... they have height and power, but no speed, and no outside threat like Dirk is ... not even close. This isn't about one-on-one, it's about building teams. And Bill Walton in the first round?!? He is a Top Ten Center for sure, but not a first-round pick. Sorry, Who ... I once voted you best on CB at player analysis, but this undermines that view a bit.

Wilt Chamberlain was a track athlete who excelled at the high jump, long jump and 100 meter dash besides being freakishly strong and tall. McHale before busting his foot and playing on it in the 87 playoffs had great lateral mobility and could get up and down a court faster than most give him credit for(see what he did to Rambis). There's no way Howard and Dirk run those two guys into the ground. I love both teams but I happen to think Who is spot on in his analysis here.

As I keep stressing, the differences between these teams are going to be very very little. All will be "Dream Teams" and the difference from best to worse will be miniscule.

[Bahku]

And a Howard/Nowitzki duo with Jordan leading will run Wilt and McHale into the ground ... they have height and power, but no speed, and no outside threat like Dirk is ... not even close. This isn't about one-on-one, it's about building teams. And Bill Walton in the first round?!? He is a Top Ten Center for sure, but not a first-round pick. Sorry, Who ... I once voted you best on CB at player analysis, but this undermines that view a bit.

Wilt Chamberlain was a track athlete who excelled at the high jump, long jump and 100 meter dash besides being freakishly strong and tall. McHale before busting his foot and playing on it in the 87 playoffs had great lateral mobility and could get up and down a court faster than most give him credit for(see what he did to Rambis). There's no way Howard and Dirk run those two guys into the ground. I love both teams but I happen to think Who is spot on in his analysis here.

As I keep stressing, the differences between these teams are going to be very very little. All will be "Dream Teams" and the difference from best to worse will be miniscule.

So, as Who put it, he'll "kill" Dwight? "destroy" Dwight? "completely and utterly shut down" Dwight?!? That's spot-on?!? Come on ... He may dominate him one-on-one with size and power, but those phrases are a bit over the line. On a Jordan-lead team, Dwight is going to out-run either of those guys, and having another big who's one of the league's best three-point shooters, is going to keep the paint pretty loose for Dwight to use his athleticism. I thought this was about building "teams" who are stronger than other teams, not on one-to-one match-ups. If so, I would have gone about ths very differently. Anyway, to each his own ... I haven't had a Who endorsement since I've been here, so no biggie ... more power to you both! (TPs)

[Who]

I thought this was about building "teams" who are stronger than other teams, not on one-to-one match-ups.

The two are inter-connected.

[Rondo2287]

I dunno, lets compare

[nickagneta]

And a Howard/Nowitzki duo with Jordan leading will run Wilt and McHale into the ground ... they have height and power, but no speed, and no outside threat like Dirk is ... not even close. This isn't about one-on-one, it's about building teams. And Bill Walton in the first round?!? He is a Top Ten Center for sure, but not a first-round pick. Sorry, Who ... I once voted you best on CB at player analysis, but this undermines that view a bit.

Wilt Chamberlain was a track athlete who excelled at the high jump, long jump and 100 meter dash besides being freakishly strong and tall. McHale before busting his foot and playing on it in the 87 playoffs had great lateral mobility and could get up and down a court faster than most give him credit for(see what he did to Rambis). There's no way Howard and Dirk run those two guys into the ground. I love both teams but I happen to think Who is spot on in his analysis here.

As I keep stressing, the differences between these teams are going to be very very little. All will be "Dream Teams" and the difference from best to worse will be miniscule.

So, as Who put it, he'll "kill" Dwight? "destroy" Dwight? "completely and utterly shut down" Dwight?!? That's spot-on?!? Come on ... He may dominate him one-on-one with size and power, but those phrases are a bit over the line. On a Jordan-lead team, Dwight is going to out-run either of those guys, and having another big who's one of the league's best three-point shooters, is going to keep the paint pretty loose for Dwight to use his athleticism. I thought this was about building "teams" who are stronger than other teams, not on one-to-one match-ups. If so, I would have gone about ths very differently. Anyway, to each his own ... I haven't had a Who endorsement since I've been here, so no biggie ... more power to you both! (TPs)

Ultimately, Bahku, it is about teams but individual matchups will matter when comparing teams and, if I'm being honest, I think Wilt Chamberlain is just so much better a player than Dwight Howard. Howard is the best center now but really has no other center in the league to compare to so we forget that Perkins was holding him to much less than his norm in last years playoffs and was one of the best one on one defenders against Howard. And that was Perk. So what would Howard do against possibly the greatest big man ever if Perkins gave him trouble?

Sorry man, no need to get upset, I just think in that particular matchup, Wilt and McHale are better than Howard and Dirk. The difference, Dirk and Howard have MJ and Wilt and McHale don't. So taking a third team mate into consideration changes things but in a frontcourt matchup look specifically, your team loses that.