2011 CB Historical Draft - Draft Thread

[StartOrien]

Which centers can realistically limit Shaq during his superhuman year?

Russell, Chamberlain, Duncan.

Kareem?

See I say pretty surely those answers are No, Maybe, and No.

Russell would do his best to hold Shaq up, but he's not strong enough. Kareem was long enough to bother Shaq, but Shaq would absolutely eat Kareem alive. I don't know how well Shaq would defend him, but Kareem would get ran over.

If Russell held Chamberlain below his (albeit incredible) scoring averages, why dismiss his ability to slow down Shaq?

Because I think Shaq was better in 99-2001 than Wilt was. I've maintained all along, that the most dominating performance I've ever seen from any basketball player is Shaq during those years.

Man, I don't know.  Averaging 50 points per game, or scoring 100 in one contest, is pretty darn dominant.

Shaq played against better athletes, but Wilt was more dominant in his time, for sure.

Its true, and I guess to be fair in this excercize you have to go off dominance of their own time.  But what were the sizes of the guys Wilt was playing against vs the guys shaq was going against? 

This really goes back to the point Roy's been laboring throughout the draft.

[Roy H.]

It would be like comparing Ken Griffy Jr and Babe Ruth, but assuming Babe Ruth only was being pitched to by white players who were in inferior physical condition.

I'm willing to give guys with huge numbers (Wilt, Kareem, etc..) the benefit of the doubt, but I'm not willing to compare them on a strict 1 to 1 basis.

Yeah, but if Ken Griffey grew up in an era where he was getting poor nutrition, no weight training, no supplements, no specialized hitting coaches, no batting machines, no flights to and from games, etc., would he have been the same player?

That's why Babe will always be the best to me:  dominance against peers (without any performance enhancers).

This really goes back to the point Roy's been laboring throughout the draft.

Yep.

[nickagneta]

It would be like comparing Ken Griffy Jr and Babe Ruth, but assuming Babe Ruth only was being pitched to by white players who were in inferior physical condition.

I'm willing to give guys with huge numbers (Wilt, Kareem, etc..) the benefit of the doubt, but I'm not willing to compare them on a strict 1 to 1 basis.

Yeah, but if Ken Griffey grew up in an era where he was getting poor nutrition, no weight training, no supplements, no specialized hitting coaches, no batting machines, no flights to and from games, etc., would he have been the same player?

That's why Babe will always be the best to me:  dominance against peers (without any performance enhancers).

Well.....beer 

[indeedproceed]

It would be like comparing Ken Griffy Jr and Babe Ruth, but assuming Babe Ruth only was being pitched to by white players who were in inferior physical condition.

I'm willing to give guys with huge numbers (Wilt, Kareem, etc..) the benefit of the doubt, but I'm not willing to compare them on a strict 1 to 1 basis.

Yeah, but if Ken Griffey grew up in an era where he was getting poor nutrition, no weight training, no supplements, no specialized hitting coaches, no batting machines, no flights to and from games, etc., would he have been the same player?

That's why Babe will always be the best to me:  dominance against peers (without any performance enhancers).

That's a fair point. But Shaq's better.

[Rondo2287]

Which centers can realistically limit Shaq during his superhuman year?

Russell, Chamberlain, Duncan.

Kareem?

See I say pretty surely those answers are No, Maybe, and No.

Russell would do his best to hold Shaq up, but he's not strong enough. Kareem was long enough to bother Shaq, but Shaq would absolutely eat Kareem alive. I don't know how well Shaq would defend him, but Kareem would get ran over.

If Russell held Chamberlain below his (albeit incredible) scoring averages, why dismiss his ability to slow down Shaq?

Because I think Shaq was better in 99-2001 than Wilt was. I've maintained all along, that the most dominating performance I've ever seen from any basketball player is Shaq during those years.

Man, I don't know.  Averaging 50 points per game, or scoring 100 in one contest, is pretty darn dominant.

Shaq played against better athletes, but Wilt was more dominant in his time, for sure.

Its true, and I guess to be fair in this excercize you have to go off dominance of their own time.  But what were the sizes of the guys Wilt was playing against vs the guys shaq was going against? 

This really goes back to the point Roy's been laboring throughout the draft.

I know I was just throwing it out there

[StartOrien]

I'm willing to give guys with huge numbers (Wilt, Kareem, etc..) the benefit of the doubt, but I'm not willing to compare them on a strict 1 to 1 basis.

I'll counter the argument, even though I'm not fully sure where I stand:

Shaq's statistical dominance was accomplished because he was a monstrous, athletic freak of nature. Why dismiss Chamberlain for doing the same thing but putting up better results?

[StartOrien]

That's a fair point. But Shaq's better.

Case Closed.

[Roy H.]

It would be like comparing Ken Griffy Jr and Babe Ruth, but assuming Babe Ruth only was being pitched to by white players who were in inferior physical condition.

I'm willing to give guys with huge numbers (Wilt, Kareem, etc..) the benefit of the doubt, but I'm not willing to compare them on a strict 1 to 1 basis.

Yeah, but if Ken Griffey grew up in an era where he was getting poor nutrition, no weight training, no supplements, no specialized hitting coaches, no batting machines, no flights to and from games, etc., would he have been the same player?

That's why Babe will always be the best to me:  dominance against peers (without any performance enhancers).

Well.....beer 

Haha, yeah.  If I could do one sports-related experiment, I'd go back in time and have Barry Bonds subsist on nothing but Babe Ruth's diet, and then see how successful he was.

[Fafnir]

That's why Babe will always be the best to me:  dominance against peers (without any performance enhancers).

Yes, though you also have to consider the vastly reduced talent pool. Somewhat reduced in the NBA's case, massively reduced in the Babe's case.

[StartOrien]

Quote
This really goes back to the point Roy's been laboring throughout the draft.

Yep.

The counter I could think of here is this: Chamberlain dominated an era in part because he was several inches taller and a 40-50 pounds heavier than his opponents.

To be that much taller and heavier in the modern era, he'd have to be 7'4 or taller, which seems to be somewhat of a breaking point on the body when it comes to being able to maintain health (at a professional athlete's level)

[Who]

Six guys 6-10 or larger, plus Wilt (7), during his 50 point per game season that played more than 500 minutes. All but one playing more than 1,400 minutes. Average weight for those players was something around 220lbs according to basketballreference.com weight listings.

Another 14 players between 6-8 and 6-9. Some bigger bodies (Embry was a wide bodied player at around 250lbs) but mostly similar weight classes.

[StartOrien]

Six guys 6-10 or larger, plus Wilt (7), during his 50 point per game season that played more than 500 minutes. All but one playing more than 1,400 minutes. Average weight for those players was something around 220lbs according to basketballreference.com weight listings.

Another 14 players between 6-8 and 6-9. Some bigger bodies (Embry was a wide bodied player at around 250lbs) but mostly similar weight classes.

Or perhaps I was mistaken

[Roy H.]

That's why Babe will always be the best to me:  dominance against peers (without any performance enhancers).

Yes, though you also have to consider the vastly reduced talent pool. Somewhat reduced in the NBA's case, massively reduced in the Babe's case.

Yeah, although any era is probably open to similar critiques.

Pre-80s or so, there wasn't as much of an influx of guys from Latin America. 

In the modern era, there aren't as many black baseball players as in the past (post-integration), and the talent pool is a bit diluted as players pursue careers in other professional sports.

[Fafnir]

That's why Babe will always be the best to me:  dominance against peers (without any performance enhancers).

Yes, though you also have to consider the vastly reduced talent pool. Somewhat reduced in the NBA's case, massively reduced in the Babe's case.

Yeah, although any era is probably open to similar critiques.

Pre-80s or so, there wasn't as much of an influx of guys from Latin America. 

In the modern era, there aren't as many black baseball players as in the past (post-integration), and the talent pool is a bit diluted as players pursue careers in other professional sports.

Not nearly to the extent that Babe Ruth had. The completel lack of any non-white athletes is a huge reduction of the athletic talent pool he dominated.

[indeedproceed]

I'm willing to give guys with huge numbers (Wilt, Kareem, etc..) the benefit of the doubt, but I'm not willing to compare them on a strict 1 to 1 basis.

I'll counter the argument, even though I'm not fully sure where I stand:

Shaq's statistical dominance was accomplished because he was a monstrous, athletic freak of nature. Why dismiss Chamberlain for doing the same thing but putting up better results?

Dismiss isn't really the word I'd use for what I'm doing, but basically in my mind, I'm not discounting Wilt Chamberlain for doing the same thing but getting better results, I'm dismissing the better results as a product of a faster paced game with less athletic competition.

When making a list of "The Best Centers Of All Time", Its gonna go Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Walton, Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, Parish, Moses Malone, and maybe Zo. Of those guys, 5 of them were peers of Shaquille O'Neal.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1960&year_max=1966&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=82&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=&qual=&c1stat=&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=pts_per_g

That's a list of everyone who was 6'10 or taller between '60 and '66.

Who did Wilt have during this 50pt season? Walt Bellamy? (6'11, 215, also known as the "Keon Clark Special") Nate Thurmond? Red Kerr? Bob Pettit? Basically it was Bill Russell and then a lot of awkward glances.

Why dismiss Shaq because he picked on guys his own size?