Dribble-Drive vs. Ball Movement

[PosImpos]

Interesting article from TrueHoop today that discusses the difference between teams like the Thunder, Heat and the Celtics, Mavs.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/28915/not-a-passing-fad

The Thunder’s high value reflects a more individual and athletic game, something that is fair to say about how the Thunder play over good amounts of time. Not surprisingly, the star-driven system of the Miami Heat came in second in this metric during the regular season. Both teams use their athleticism off the dribble to drive to the middle and get foul calls.

Can you guess who is at the bottom of the list? The Celtics and Dallas Mavericks, two of the oldest teams in the league.

Boston now is engaged in a struggle with Miami in a battle of contrasts. The Celtics, thus far, really have been unable to pass the ball well enough to defeat the Miami defense.

While the ball-movement strategy has worked well so far for the Mavericks because of their outside shooting and rebounding inside (and because they have Dirk to collapse the defense), it hasn't worked for the Celtics, who lack rebounding and an inside presence.  

The inability to drive inside and get to the line (with the exception of last game, when Pierce was able to do it quite a bit) has really hurt the Celtics over the last couple of years, I think.  At the very least, if you are going to depend so much on outside shooting, I think it's absolutely necessary to have size and rebounding inside, if not post scoring as well. 

If you rely on ball movement to create jumpshots but don't have a consistent post presence or big guys inside who can grab and finish (or kick out) misses, your offense is going to be very streaky, prone to stagnation, and heavily reliant upon working in transition to create mismatches.  Sound familiar?

[BballTim]

Interesting article from TrueHoop today that discusses the difference between teams like the Thunder, Heat and the Celtics, Mavs.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/28915/not-a-passing-fad

The Thunder’s high value reflects a more individual and athletic game, something that is fair to say about how the Thunder play over good amounts of time. Not surprisingly, the star-driven system of the Miami Heat came in second in this metric during the regular season. Both teams use their athleticism off the dribble to drive to the middle and get foul calls.

Can you guess who is at the bottom of the list? The Celtics and Dallas Mavericks, two of the oldest teams in the league.

Boston now is engaged in a struggle with Miami in a battle of contrasts. The Celtics, thus far, really have been unable to pass the ball well enough to defeat the Miami defense.

While the ball-movement strategy has worked well so far for the Mavericks because of their outside shooting and rebounding inside (and because they have Dirk to collapse the defense), it hasn't worked for the Celtics, who lack rebounding and an inside presence.  

The inability to drive inside and get to the line (with the exception of last game, when Pierce was able to do it quite a bit) has really hurt the Celtics over the last couple of years, I think.  At the very least, if you are going to depend so much on outside shooting, I think it's absolutely necessary to have size and rebounding inside, if not post scoring as well.  

If you rely on ball movement to create jumpshots but don't have a consistent post presence or big guys inside who can grab and finish (or kick out) misses, your offense is going to be very streaky, prone to stagnation, and heavily reliant upon working in transition to create mismatches.  Sound familiar?

  Fairly meaningless article. According to the Hollinger's team stats, for the 2010-2011 regular season, 11 of the top 15 offensive teams were in the top 15 teams for highest assist percentage. Also, 5 of the 8 teams that made it to the second round of the playoffs were in the top 10 teams in assist percentage.

  Edit: This may have seemed snippy towards PosImpos, but it was more my opinion of the article. He's correct that there are, in general, fewer assists since the hand check rule change (and we're seeing more scoring point guards) but it's still probably the case that scoring chances off of passes are more efficient than scoring chances off of individual shot creation.

[wiley]

I thought the ball movement absolutely stunk in the last game for the Celtics.  And not even because they were driving.  They were just holding onto the ball and waiting for things to happen.  Miami's defense is good enough without helping them out like that...
Somehow someway, the Celtics went individual in game 4, and it cost them.

The article passes the eyeball test as far as Thunder verses Heat.  I'd have guessed Thunder move the ball less than Miami, as the article states.

[PosImpos]

Interesting article from TrueHoop today that discusses the difference between teams like the Thunder, Heat and the Celtics, Mavs.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/28915/not-a-passing-fad

The Thunder’s high value reflects a more individual and athletic game, something that is fair to say about how the Thunder play over good amounts of time. Not surprisingly, the star-driven system of the Miami Heat came in second in this metric during the regular season. Both teams use their athleticism off the dribble to drive to the middle and get foul calls.

Can you guess who is at the bottom of the list? The Celtics and Dallas Mavericks, two of the oldest teams in the league.

Boston now is engaged in a struggle with Miami in a battle of contrasts. The Celtics, thus far, really have been unable to pass the ball well enough to defeat the Miami defense.

While the ball-movement strategy has worked well so far for the Mavericks because of their outside shooting and rebounding inside (and because they have Dirk to collapse the defense), it hasn't worked for the Celtics, who lack rebounding and an inside presence.  

The inability to drive inside and get to the line (with the exception of last game, when Pierce was able to do it quite a bit) has really hurt the Celtics over the last couple of years, I think.  At the very least, if you are going to depend so much on outside shooting, I think it's absolutely necessary to have size and rebounding inside, if not post scoring as well.  

If you rely on ball movement to create jumpshots but don't have a consistent post presence or big guys inside who can grab and finish (or kick out) misses, your offense is going to be very streaky, prone to stagnation, and heavily reliant upon working in transition to create mismatches.  Sound familiar?

  Fairly meaningless article. According to the Hollinger's team stats, for the 2010-2011 regular season, 11 of the top 15 offensive teams were in the top 15 teams for highest assist percentage. Also, 5 of the 8 teams that made it to the second round of the playoffs were in the top 10 teams in assist percentage.

  Edit: This may have seemed snippy towards PosImpos, but it was more my opinion of the article. He's correct that there are, in general, fewer assists since the hand check rule change (and we're seeing more scoring point guards) but it's still probably the case that scoring chances off of passes are more efficient than scoring chances off of individual shot creation.

I don't entirely disagree; I think that it's important to be able to move the ball and score off open looks.  I don't think it's ideal to depend so entirely upon dribble drive as the Heat, Bulls, and Thunder do (which is why their offenses, too, tend to struggle at times).  

I do think there's something to be said for the idea that the dribble-drive style tends to work well in the playoffs, where it's harder to get into the open court and stars tend to get a lot of calls.  Being able to win the free throw battle almost every night gives your team a great advantage, especially in the playoffs.

My point was more that I think there's a great value in having at least one player on your team who can drive and get to the line in that way.  I think the Celtics really miss that kind of a presence.  It's something Paul Pierce used to do a lot more, and something we all wish Rondo would (or could?) do more, yet doesn't.  

Pierce is too old (lost a step, more fragile) to do it consistently, and Rondo's thin frame (can't take the contact night in and night out) and inability to shoot free throws discourages him from doing it.

[BballTim]

Interesting article from TrueHoop today that discusses the difference between teams like the Thunder, Heat and the Celtics, Mavs.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/28915/not-a-passing-fad

The Thunder’s high value reflects a more individual and athletic game, something that is fair to say about how the Thunder play over good amounts of time. Not surprisingly, the star-driven system of the Miami Heat came in second in this metric during the regular season. Both teams use their athleticism off the dribble to drive to the middle and get foul calls.

Can you guess who is at the bottom of the list? The Celtics and Dallas Mavericks, two of the oldest teams in the league.

Boston now is engaged in a struggle with Miami in a battle of contrasts. The Celtics, thus far, really have been unable to pass the ball well enough to defeat the Miami defense.

While the ball-movement strategy has worked well so far for the Mavericks because of their outside shooting and rebounding inside (and because they have Dirk to collapse the defense), it hasn't worked for the Celtics, who lack rebounding and an inside presence.  

The inability to drive inside and get to the line (with the exception of last game, when Pierce was able to do it quite a bit) has really hurt the Celtics over the last couple of years, I think.  At the very least, if you are going to depend so much on outside shooting, I think it's absolutely necessary to have size and rebounding inside, if not post scoring as well.  

If you rely on ball movement to create jumpshots but don't have a consistent post presence or big guys inside who can grab and finish (or kick out) misses, your offense is going to be very streaky, prone to stagnation, and heavily reliant upon working in transition to create mismatches.  Sound familiar?

  Fairly meaningless article. According to the Hollinger's team stats, for the 2010-2011 regular season, 11 of the top 15 offensive teams were in the top 15 teams for highest assist percentage. Also, 5 of the 8 teams that made it to the second round of the playoffs were in the top 10 teams in assist percentage.

  Edit: This may have seemed snippy towards PosImpos, but it was more my opinion of the article. He's correct that there are, in general, fewer assists since the hand check rule change (and we're seeing more scoring point guards) but it's still probably the case that scoring chances off of passes are more efficient than scoring chances off of individual shot creation.

I don't entirely disagree; I think that it's important to be able to move the ball and score off open looks.  I don't think it's ideal to depend so entirely upon dribble drive as the Heat, Bulls, and Thunder do (which is why their offenses, too, tend to struggle at times).  

I do think there's something to be said for the idea that the dribble-drive style tends to work well in the playoffs, where it's harder to get into the open court and stars tend to get a lot of calls.  Being able to win the free throw battle almost every night gives your team a great advantage, especially in the playoffs.

My point was more that I think there's a great value in having at least one player on your team who can drive and get to the line in that way.  I think the Celtics really miss that kind of a presence.  It's something Paul Pierce used to do a lot more, and something we all wish Rondo would (or could?) do more, yet doesn't.  

Pierce is too old (lost a step, more fragile) to do it consistently, and Rondo's thin frame (can't take the contact night in and night out) and inability to shoot free throws discourages him from doing it.

  I don't disagree with what you're saying. The thing is the Celts are getting plenty of shots at the rim but they aren't hitting a lot of them or, apparently, drawing enough fouls on them.

[PosImpos]

Interesting article from TrueHoop today that discusses the difference between teams like the Thunder, Heat and the Celtics, Mavs.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/28915/not-a-passing-fad

The Thunder’s high value reflects a more individual and athletic game, something that is fair to say about how the Thunder play over good amounts of time. Not surprisingly, the star-driven system of the Miami Heat came in second in this metric during the regular season. Both teams use their athleticism off the dribble to drive to the middle and get foul calls.

Can you guess who is at the bottom of the list? The Celtics and Dallas Mavericks, two of the oldest teams in the league.

Boston now is engaged in a struggle with Miami in a battle of contrasts. The Celtics, thus far, really have been unable to pass the ball well enough to defeat the Miami defense.

While the ball-movement strategy has worked well so far for the Mavericks because of their outside shooting and rebounding inside (and because they have Dirk to collapse the defense), it hasn't worked for the Celtics, who lack rebounding and an inside presence.  

The inability to drive inside and get to the line (with the exception of last game, when Pierce was able to do it quite a bit) has really hurt the Celtics over the last couple of years, I think.  At the very least, if you are going to depend so much on outside shooting, I think it's absolutely necessary to have size and rebounding inside, if not post scoring as well.  

If you rely on ball movement to create jumpshots but don't have a consistent post presence or big guys inside who can grab and finish (or kick out) misses, your offense is going to be very streaky, prone to stagnation, and heavily reliant upon working in transition to create mismatches.  Sound familiar?

  Fairly meaningless article. According to the Hollinger's team stats, for the 2010-2011 regular season, 11 of the top 15 offensive teams were in the top 15 teams for highest assist percentage. Also, 5 of the 8 teams that made it to the second round of the playoffs were in the top 10 teams in assist percentage.

  Edit: This may have seemed snippy towards PosImpos, but it was more my opinion of the article. He's correct that there are, in general, fewer assists since the hand check rule change (and we're seeing more scoring point guards) but it's still probably the case that scoring chances off of passes are more efficient than scoring chances off of individual shot creation.

I don't entirely disagree; I think that it's important to be able to move the ball and score off open looks.  I don't think it's ideal to depend so entirely upon dribble drive as the Heat, Bulls, and Thunder do (which is why their offenses, too, tend to struggle at times).  

I do think there's something to be said for the idea that the dribble-drive style tends to work well in the playoffs, where it's harder to get into the open court and stars tend to get a lot of calls.  Being able to win the free throw battle almost every night gives your team a great advantage, especially in the playoffs.

My point was more that I think there's a great value in having at least one player on your team who can drive and get to the line in that way.  I think the Celtics really miss that kind of a presence.  It's something Paul Pierce used to do a lot more, and something we all wish Rondo would (or could?) do more, yet doesn't.  

Pierce is too old (lost a step, more fragile) to do it consistently, and Rondo's thin frame (can't take the contact night in and night out) and inability to shoot free throws discourages him from doing it.

  I don't disagree with what you're saying. The thing is the Celts are getting plenty of shots at the rim but they aren't hitting a lot of them or, apparently, drawing enough fouls on them.

Right, but that speaks to a lack of inside scorers / players that can drive and finish or draw contact.

Whatever the Celtics roster looks like in the coming years, I really hope it includes players who can score inside and get to the free throw line, either by driving the lane or by posting up (ideally both).  

The fact that Rondo has the ball in his hands most of the game and yet can't (or won't) get to the line or score at the rim consistently is one of the biggest reasons he's such a limited offensive player, and why I'd be reluctant to build around him.  At the least, a team that relies on Rondo to run the offense needs another guy who can get the ball inside and score or get to the line (e.g. a dominant big man), especially so because Rondo can't even create high percentage shots for himself on the perimeter (the way that Steve Nash can).

This is one of the reasons I think the idea of "hey, let's just surround Rondo with a bunch of fast athletic guys who can finish on the break, we'll win tons of games" is so flawed.