The Scoring Point Guard

[soap07]

Chris Paul and Deron Williams aren't scoring point-guards. They give their teams the scoring boost they need when needed. The only difference between them and Rondo is that they are efficient scorers with great jumpers.

  Well, aside from defense, passing, ballhandling, rebounding and the like.

Paul and Williams are every bit, if not better, the passers and ball handlers that Rondo is.

  I would disagree, more with Williams than CP3. Deron isn't really that great a ballhandler from what I've seen over the years, and Rondo makes a lot of passes that Williams couldn't.

We can agree to disagree.

In terms of ball handling, the only real numbers one can point to:

Rondo's career Turnover Rate: 19.7
Chris Paul: 13.3
Deron Williams: 16.6

[BballTim]

Chris Paul and Deron Williams aren't scoring point-guards. They give their teams the scoring boost they need when needed. The only difference between them and Rondo is that they are efficient scorers with great jumpers.

  Well, aside from defense, passing, ballhandling, rebounding and the like.

Paul and Williams are every bit, if not better, the passers and ball handlers that Rondo is.

  I would disagree, more with Williams than CP3. Deron isn't really that great a ballhandler from what I've seen over the years, and Rondo makes a lot of passes that Williams couldn't.

We can agree to disagree.

In terms of ball handling, the only real numbers one can point to:

Rondo's career Turnover Rate: 19.7
Chris Paul: 13.3
Deron Williams: 16.6

  82games keeps track of turnovers by type. Over the last 4 years Rondo's played about 10400 minutes with 229 ballhandling turnovers. Williams has played about 11100 minutes with 308 ballhandling turnovers. Paul's played about 10500 minutes with 270 ballhandling turnovers. So on a per minute basis Paul commits ballhandling turnovers 17% more often than Rondo and Williams commits ballhandling turnovers about 27% more often. I didn't check total career numbers, just the amount of time they've all been starters and all played similar minutes. But the difference seems fairly significant.

[OsirusCeltics]

This is the same thing that kid Collisson did in the Indiana.  They could have won games 1 and 3, but even though Granger and Hibbert were getting it done all game, he decides to try to take over the game at the end, not letting Granger or Hibbert touch the ball.  I was screaming at the TV at that kid.

This is why I said in another thread that I liked Conley better right now.  He gets his teammates involved.

The same I think with Westbrook. I feel him being on the team is going to prevent the Thunder from going far in the playoffs

[ballin]

Chris Paul and Deron Williams aren't scoring point-guards. They give their teams the scoring boost they need when needed. The only difference between them and Rondo is that they are efficient scorers with great jumpers.

  Well, aside from defense, passing, ballhandling, rebounding and the like.

Paul and Williams are every bit, if not better, the passers and ball handlers that Rondo is.

  I would disagree, more with Williams than CP3. Deron isn't really that great a ballhandler from what I've seen over the years, and Rondo makes a lot of passes that Williams couldn't.

??

Sometimes I don't know where you're coming from. Deron Williams  has MULTIPLE mixes devoted to JUST his crossover abilities. NBA point guards have voted Deron Williams the toughest opposing point guard to guard (google it). And you're saying that Deron isn't a great ballhandler? How many times have you actually seen Deron play?

And those turnover numbers you just provided don't prove anything after you account for usage and how often Deron drove to the hoop this year in comparison to Rondo. I'm a huge stat-head so I recognize flawed/irrelevant statistics when I see them.

[BballTim]

Chris Paul and Deron Williams aren't scoring point-guards. They give their teams the scoring boost they need when needed. The only difference between them and Rondo is that they are efficient scorers with great jumpers.

  Well, aside from defense, passing, ballhandling, rebounding and the like.

Paul and Williams are every bit, if not better, the passers and ball handlers that Rondo is.

  I would disagree, more with Williams than CP3. Deron isn't really that great a ballhandler from what I've seen over the years, and Rondo makes a lot of passes that Williams couldn't.

??

Sometimes I don't know where you're coming from. Deron Williams  has MULTIPLE mixes devoted to JUST his crossover abilities. NBA point guards have voted Deron Williams the toughest opposing point guard to guard (google it). And you're saying that Deron isn't a great ballhandler? How many times have you actually seen Deron play?

And those turnover numbers you just provided don't prove anything after you account for usage and how often Deron drove to the hoop this year in comparison to Rondo. I'm a huge stat-head so I recognize flawed/irrelevant statistics when I see them.

  I've seen enough of Deron's ballhandling to say it's not on the same level as Rondo's. If you were the stat-head that you think you are, I doubt that you'd start your argument with a claim that a number of youtube mixes of Deron's crossover moves exist. You also wouldn't try and refute 4 years worth of data based on how often Deron drove to the hoop than Rondo *this year*. You might also realize that the bulk of Deron's usage comes from jump shots, and you generally don't get a ton of ballhandling turnovers when you take a jump shot. Oh, and a huge stat-head would know without looking that there generally isn't a big gap between how often Deron and Rajon drive to the hoop.

 Also, I'm guessing that Williams' shooting has a lot to do with his being voted toughest to guard. I'll go out on a limb and make the claim (without stats or proof, obviously) that if Rondo could hit jumpers and FTs as well as Williams that he'd immediately vault over Deron in the "toughest to guard" list.

[ejk3489]

Chris Paul and Deron Williams aren't scoring point-guards. They give their teams the scoring boost they need when needed. The only difference between them and Rondo is that they are efficient scorers with great jumpers.

  Well, aside from defense, passing, ballhandling, rebounding and the like.

Paul and Williams are every bit, if not better, the passers and ball handlers that Rondo is.

  I would disagree, more with Williams than CP3. Deron isn't really that great a ballhandler from what I've seen over the years, and Rondo makes a lot of passes that Williams couldn't.

??

Sometimes I don't know where you're coming from. Deron Williams  has MULTIPLE mixes devoted to JUST his crossover abilities. NBA point guards have voted Deron Williams the toughest opposing point guard to guard (google it). And you're saying that Deron isn't a great ballhandler? How many times have you actually seen Deron play?

And those turnover numbers you just provided don't prove anything after you account for usage and how often Deron drove to the hoop this year in comparison to Rondo. I'm a huge stat-head so I recognize flawed/irrelevant statistics when I see them.

Rondo has had more shot attempts at the rim than Deron for the past 3 years. It really wasn't even close in 09' and 10'...even this year when Rondo was going to the basket less, he still had 20+ more attempts than Williams did.

[Celticsfan336]

The TNT talked about it last night that Russell Westbrook basically ruined the Thunder's chances at completing the sweep.

Instead of getting his teammates involved, or even passing to the Thunder's best player in Durant in the final mintutes, Westbrook decided to shoot his team out of a win. A point guard shoots 30 shots? I think this is the reason why I say scoring point guards AREN'T point guards. They are shooting guards masquerading as point guards. They lack the court vision, passing skills, ability to control tempo, recognizing mismatches, etc.

Throughout history the only scoring point guards I could think of are Walt Frazier (my top 10 all time), Isiah Thomas, and Nate Archibald. The thing is their scoring skills were equal to their passing skills. Chris Paul is in that mold also

But that is why I can't root for Derrick Rose, Westbrook, Tyreke Evans, Deron Williams, or Jameer Nelson. They are not point guards. They look to "get theirs" instead of getting their teammates involved in the flow of the offense. I don't think that you can ever win with a player like that.


Just my two cents. Do you agree?

Deron Williams would fall into the scoring as well as you past category. Rose is an excellant passer too, he is just an extremely good scorer too, infact I think he'll go down as the greatest scoring PG of all time. Tyreke can defiently pass, he's just got no one to pass too....you can get assists when no one makes the shots you give them.


I agree though, I'd much rather have a PG like Rondo or Nash or the best PG in the league CP3. But still, scoring PGs are great for some teams, it all depends on what team you play on. Westbrook would not be the best fit for our team, but then again Rondo wouldnt be the best fit for the Kings.

[OsirusCeltics]

Last night was a pure example how a "point guard" like that can lose an important game. Russell Westbrook almost shot the Thunder out of the game

Luckily the ball was in the hands of their best player in Durant and he delivered

[BudweiserCeltic]

Last night was a pure example how a "point guard" like that can lose an important game. Russell Westbrook almost shot the Thunder out of the game

Luckily the ball was in the hands of their best player in Durant and he delivered

He took 15 shots and got to the line, nothing really outlandish and complaints about the amount of shots taken is a bit of an exaggeration particularly when he's the #2 option for his team.

Should we ignore games in which Rondo goes 5 of 14 which is not much worse, though to his credit he moves the ball infinitely better? But Rondo is just as capable of crapping the Celtics style with poor shot selection.

Westbrook simply needs a bit more discipline that's all.

[OsirusCeltics]

Like I said, Russell Westbrook is playing too much black-hole offense. It's killing the Thunder

[OsirusCeltics]

Thunder have such an inability of scoring in the half court
They just look lost.

Also, I think if Rondo was there, Durant would get alot more touches in crunch time

Did you see when Westbrook actually waved him off on a couple of plays in the 4th quarter and OT? Wow...just wow