Bench Production....(That is the Question)

[BudweiserCeltic]

Another thing of it is that while the Knicks go small, they're still athletic and have long arms. They're packing the middle, and when you leave Rondo out there, they have Jeffries double teaming just about anyone who touches the ball, and when you give the ball to Davis in the post, he has no idea what to do with a double team, unless it's force the shot and get it blocked.

Not even KG has been comfortable against the Knicks in the post.

[guava_wrench]

I've been saying it for years, and anybody that understands how players impact games has to agree.

This is called a 'no true Scotsman fallacy'. No, they do not have to agree. Plenty of people who know much more than you about how players impact games think highly of Baby.

[jsingh1699]

given we're up 3-0, id be open to having dwest sit out game 4, and having arroyo get some burn. the guy is playing hurt and seems to be outta sync. having arroyo play 5-10 min cant hurt us, can it?

ive always been big on wafer because of his aggressiveness to attack the hoop. at the end of yday game, he drove to the hoop and did have his shot swatted away by random player, but he at least took it strong. you cant really say that about any player on our team last night except for rondo. we won last night cause the jump shooting was out of this world. it wont happen again unfortunately.

i think for this series, id be open to seeing green get more burn at the 4 against the likes of shawne williams. guys like krstic and baby are gonna struggle in this series because the knicks are too quick at the 4,5 when they have stat, jefferies, and shawne williams rotating there. against the likes of illguskias and dampier on the heat, krstic and baby will do much better.

[dlpin]

One particular problem for the boston bench is something that if you go back and read previous' years threads you will see that has long been a problem:

Doc's rotation. To be more precise, Doc has this weird thing with almost doing line changes. He replaces the entire team almost at once. It is one thing for a back up to come in the game, gold. It is another for the entire team to do so. I've long been critical of this, but Doc keeps doing it.

[clover]

One particular problem for the boston bench is something that if you go back and read previous' years threads you will see that has long been a problem:

Doc's rotation. To be more precise, Doc has this weird thing with almost doing line changes. He replaces the entire team almost at once. It is one thing for a back up to come in the game, gold. It is another for the entire team to do so. I've long been critical of this, but Doc keeps doing it.

I agree.

[Jon]

Before anyone rules out Shaq in his/her mind, you need to look yourself in the mirror and ask these two questions:

1) Did I say last month that it was completely impossible for Jermaine O'Neal to ever be productive again?

2) When Ray was struggling last month or last year, did I say, the time has finally come, there's no way for a 35-year-old to get back to star status? 

And before anyone thinks this is a "true fan" post, it's not.  It's about people acting like player's in their 30s are 80-year-olds getting hip replacements. 

I'm not saying Shaq will be back, but to think just because he's an 39-year-old with a strained calf that it's impossible to come back is just not the case.  With the way some people are talking about him, you'd think he severed his spinal cord. 

[Bankshot]

Glen.......we love you, Man..c'mon back to us, please.

Yes.  I really think he must be hurt.  Even the Baby haters have to admit that he is much better than this and has been a pretty good playoff performer in the past.  Earlier in the year when he wasn't playing well, we found out later that he was playing with some injuries.  Something must be up.

Delonte is another concern.  He has been pretty bad. Not setting people up, pounding the ball into submission.  It's just crazy.  These guys needs to step up.

[ram]

First, Doc's dilemma: Play a 2nd unit together (usually with 1 starter on the floor) and rest 4-5 starters at a time
or
reduce the amount of time the starters (esp the Big 4) are on the floor at the same time in order to stagger the time the subs get on the floor.

The Big 4 are so good together, it's hard not to try to play them 32 minutes together (2/3 of the total game).

Secondly, the bench is capable:

Baby was the starting PF on the team in 2009 that took the
Magic to 7 games. He was very good in that series.

West was a starter on the 2009 Cavs that lost in the ECF (13.8 PPG in the playoffs).

Green and Krstic were starters for OK last season that gave the Lakers all they wanted. While both had low FG% in the series (who didn't?), Green played heavy minutes (37 PG). Now he either guarded Kobe or one of the Laker bigs (probably played some 3 and 4) and did a well enough job (see their FG%'s). Krstic was effective enough to stay on the court for 21 MPG and had a couple of good playoff series for the Nets a few years ago (18 PPG in 1 series and 15 PPG in 11 games the next season).

So these 4 guys are more than capable. They just aren't doing it on the court.

[blceltsfan]

Beyond the chemistry, or lack thereof, I have some questions/observations:
1. Delonte came back from injuries and was gaining real momentum until he reinjured his ankle. Everyone gasped, but he came back surprisingly fast. Just wondering if he isn't ready, and has lost his mojo because he can't move?
2. Does anyone else think BB has gained weight. He looks slower, isn't rebounding anywhere near as well, and with no practices etc. isn't playing with the same energy.
3. Green demonstrates he has the tools. He was running the floor, shooting well, successfully driving to the whole, rebounding, etc. The more he got pushed to the bench the more he seems to have lost confidence. Combine this with the tag as soft, passive, which has followed him since his Georgetown days. Love to see him with "attitude."
4. Kristic looks just as confused and I am by why he's confused, after looking like a solid replacement right after the trade.
5. Doc has always had guys on the bench, which for one reason or another don't seem to flourish under him. I belive in the earn it quality he professes, but somewhere in there is the confidence level that they seem to lose?

[clover]

First, Doc's dilemma: Play a 2nd unit together (usually with 1 starter on the floor) and rest 4-5 starters at a time
or
reduce the amount of time the starters (esp the Big 4) are on the floor at the same time in order to stagger the time the subs get on the floor.

The Big 4 are so good together, it's hard not to try to play them 32 minutes together (2/3 of the total game).

Secondly, the bench is capable:

Baby was the starting PF on the team in 2009 that took the
Magic to 7 games. He was very good in that series.

West was a starter on the 2009 Cavs that lost in the ECF (13.8 PPG in the playoffs).

Green and Krstic were starters for OK last season that gave the Lakers all they wanted. While both had low FG% in the series (who didn't?), Green played heavy minutes (37 PG). Now he either guarded Kobe or one of the Laker bigs (probably played some 3 and 4) and did a well enough job (see their FG%'s). Krstic was effective enough to stay on the court for 21 MPG and had a couple of good playoff series for the Nets a few years ago (18 PPG in 1 series and 15 PPG in 11 games the next season).

So these 4 guys are more than capable. They just aren't doing it on the court.

The Big Four are good enough to substitute another competent but non-star player in, especially at the center, but at the other positions as well, and still deliver.  Thus I choose the more judicious, less wholesale, substitution pattern.  Alas, Doc never calls me for advice.

[mgent]

It needs to be all Delonte and Green.  That's our only chance.  Big Baby has to stay out of the way, set screens, grab boards, and wait for the 15-17 footer when open (not contested 22 footers) or take it to the rim.  If Krstic is in there he should only be converting garbage buckets and getting offensive rebounds (but I'd much rather see JO or KG until Shaq gets back).

The offense is completely in the hands of West and Green, they just need to get back into their game.  Green needs to pretend he's back in OKC and has to be selfish with the ball in order to score his points.  Delonte needs to get out of Nate-mode and start looking for his own shot instead of trying to be Rondo and just directing traffic.  Pick and roll, pick and pop, whatever just get some points on the board, and for the love of God keep the ball away from Baby unless he's hot.

[celtics2]

Our 3 wins against a depleted Knicks team doesn't impress me. Game 3 impressed as the starters jelled but Doc couldn't leave the bench out there, the starters came back in to close it out. We will wear out our starters with the likes of Miami.

[ballin]

I've been saying it for years, and anybody that understands how players impact games has to agree.

This is called a 'no true Scotsman fallacy'. No, they do not have to agree. Plenty of people who know much more than you about how players impact games think highly of Baby.

Then how come no other GM wanted to pay Baby a measly 3 mil to get him on their team? Oh yeah, because nobody outside of Massachusetts actually DOES think highly of him.

[GreenEnvy]

I've been saying it for years, and anybody that understands how players impact games has to agree.

This is called a 'no true Scotsman fallacy'. No, they do not have to agree. Plenty of people who know much more than you about how players impact games think highly of Baby.

Then how come no other GM wanted to pay Baby a measly 3 mil to get him on their team? Oh yeah, because nobody outside of Massachusetts actually DOES think highly of him.

His game has changed a lot in the past two seasons since he signed that contract. He's a much better player now (although he isn't showing it right now).

I think he will get more this time around if he shops around. I don't think the Celtics will be willing to offer more than they did last time, if they even want him back.

[Rondo_is_better]

Delonte's been disappointing this series.

Jeff is a few kinks away from being really effective.

Glen Davis has been a train wreck.