Bench Production....(That is the Question)

[ballin]

Are you guys and I looking at the same bench? Oh, it's the green goggles...

Listen, the bench problem is a personnel issue, and that's about all there is to it. In other words, the guys we have coming off the bench... well... they suck.

I simultaneously laugh and cringe when I hear Big Baby referred to as a potential "6th man of the year." He's terrible and he always has been. I've been saying it for years, and anybody that understands how players impact games has to agree. And he accounts for a MASSIVE amount of our bench minutes. What happens when you put in a player that can't rebound, defend his position, or score with any modicum of efficiency? Oh yeah, you start to lose.

Moving on, Krstic and Jeff Green are below average defenders for their positions as well, and both are ATROCIOUS rebounders. They're passable on offense, but not enough so to offset their lack of defense and rebounding.

The only other guy that gets burn is Delonte, and frankly, he's the only decent player of the bunch.


Expecting anything more out of the bench is going to be extremely unrealistic; our bench is sadly performing at about the level one would expect it to, given the personnel. Only the crazies who thought Krstic was an upgrade over Perkins, Green was the best player in the trade, and that Glen Davis is the 6th man of the year would expect a different outcome.

Well look at the reality of the situation, and tell me whose player evaluations appear to be more correct. So uh yeah, our bench is in for a rough ride and it's not gonna get any better from here on out.

[wdleehi]

Does the bench talent fit the needs of the starters anymore?

[angryguy77]

Are you guys and I looking at the same bench? Oh, it's the green goggles...

Listen, the bench problem is a personnel issue, and that's about all there is to it. In other words, the guys we have coming off the bench... well... they suck.

I simultaneously laugh and cringe when I hear Big Baby referred to as a potential "6th man of the year." He's terrible and he always has been. I've been saying it for years, and anybody that understands how players impact games has to agree. And he accounts for a MASSIVE amount of our bench minutes. What happens when you put in a player that can't rebound, defend his position, or score with any modicum of efficiency? Oh yeah, you start to lose.

Moving on, Krstic and Jeff Green are below average defenders for their positions as well, and both are ATROCIOUS rebounders. They're passable on offense, but not enough so to offset their lack of defense and rebounding.

The only other guy that gets burn is Delonte, and frankly, he's the only decent player of the bunch.


Expecting anything more out of the bench is going to be extremely unrealistic; our bench is sadly performing at about the level one would expect it to, given the personnel. Only the crazies who thought Krstic was an upgrade over Perkins, Green was the best player in the trade, and that Glen Davis is the 6th man of the year would expect a different outcome.

Well look at the reality of the situation, and tell me whose player evaluations appear to be more correct. So uh yeah, our bench is in for a rough ride and it's not gonna get any better from here on out.

Our problem is we don't have a good back up center. If shaq comes back that changes everything.

Baby is killing the second unit.

[ballin]

Are you guys and I looking at the same bench? Oh, it's the green goggles...

Listen, the bench problem is a personnel issue, and that's about all there is to it. In other words, the guys we have coming off the bench... well... they suck.

I simultaneously laugh and cringe when I hear Big Baby referred to as a potential "6th man of the year." He's terrible and he always has been. I've been saying it for years, and anybody that understands how players impact games has to agree. And he accounts for a MASSIVE amount of our bench minutes. What happens when you put in a player that can't rebound, defend his position, or score with any modicum of efficiency? Oh yeah, you start to lose.

Moving on, Krstic and Jeff Green are below average defenders for their positions as well, and both are ATROCIOUS rebounders. They're passable on offense, but not enough so to offset their lack of defense and rebounding.

The only other guy that gets burn is Delonte, and frankly, he's the only decent player of the bunch.


Expecting anything more out of the bench is going to be extremely unrealistic; our bench is sadly performing at about the level one would expect it to, given the personnel. Only the crazies who thought Krstic was an upgrade over Perkins, Green was the best player in the trade, and that Glen Davis is the 6th man of the year would expect a different outcome.

Well look at the reality of the situation, and tell me whose player evaluations appear to be more correct. So uh yeah, our bench is in for a rough ride and it's not gonna get any better from here on out.

Our problem is we don't have a good back up center. If shaq comes back that changes everything.

Baby is killing the second unit.

Well yeah, I guess that's kind of what I'm saying. Delonte is a good bench player, and Jeff Green is pretty much mediocre, so they're not the problem. It's Davis and Krstic, so to your point, I agree that a lack of a passable backup center is pretty much what's killing us.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Right now the main problem is Delonte West, and then Big Baby Davis. Next to that, is Doc putting some bad units with poor matchups on the floor. Though Davis is cutting on his shot attempts in the last couple of games which has been for the best.

We speak of the mediocrity of Green's defense, but I've thought has played very good defense in this series so far, particularly against Carmelo. And he has been rebounding better. 3 rebounds in 12 minutes is not bad, and 4 rebounds 21 minutes is not bad either.

Krstic is simply having some tough match-ups in there. For example, today they had him guarding a quick perimeter big, which doesn't make much sense to me.

Considering the problems that stem from using small lineups against the Knicks 2nd unit, we have to start using Murphy a bit more since it's apparent that Doc is incapable of using Krstic in matchup which would enable him to compete appropriately. Maybe see some Arroyo instead of West for a time, and maybe use a bit of Wafer to speed up that unit more.

Maybe that's just what's missing, a bit more speed and stop running half-court offense with West's hesitation.

[ducksawce]

The bench looks exactly like the starting unit during the last 15 games of the year.  Common link?...the lack of a real center.

The bench is playing without a true center.  Sadly, Kristic doesn't really count.  Not only does this weaken them massively on defense, but it also handicaps them on the boards.  Any combination of Green+Baby+Kristic seems to get MAULED on the boards. 

When Shaq comes back, JO will likely split his minutes between the starters and bench...and that alone will cure many of their defensive problems (which are less obvious due to their offensive problems...but perhaps more important in the scheme of things).

Offensively speaking though, I think we are all missing one important factor in all of this.  The Knicks on the whole, are playing small ball...ESPECIALLY their bench.  In looking at our bench, what is it's potential advantage over other team's benches?  Size.  Delonte is larger than many point guards.  Jeff Green is large for a 3.  Baby is just plain large.  Once Shaq arrives, JO will serve as a large TRUE center.

This Knicks team is just a bad matchup for the Celtics bench.  With a true center against Miami and Chicago, I'm sure the bench will hold its own.  Already Jeff Green is picking things up on defense...Carmelo is pretty good practice in preparation for Lebron, to say the least.  He's also slowly learning to pick his spots.

JO will serve as a truly fantastic bench center. 

Really though, when we're talking about bench problems, we're really referring to Baby and Delonte.  What's wrong with them, I don't know.  Delonte needs to take his open 3's with confidence, and Baby needs to bang inside.  I have a feeling that once Delonte rights the way, the ball control and clock management won't be such an issue, and we'll see Glen get his offensive opportunities before the shot clock expires, jeees.  Clock management.  Once Delonte decides to play like his normal self, we'll see better shots from the bench, and Baby in particular.

[GreenFaith1819]

I have to give Delonte a BUNCH of credit for even playing...someone help me out if I'm wrong, but I remember reading somewhere that he will more than likely need surgery on that wrist in the offseason - the same one that caused him to miss some time earlier. I can see where that would be affecting his shot.

I'm just thankful that DWest is in fact playing...he's out there giving max effort.

[Yogi]

   Delonte has said he won't be 100% with both his wrist and his ankle.  But he's a warrior.  Anyone who doesn't think Baby is a good player, he's behind only Odom, Terry and Young as SMOY in voting from people who actually know about these things.  Baby is an emotional player.  I've always felt that he played best when Nate was coming off the bench because they fed off each other.  Doc has said many times that Baby goes through moods, but Nate was always positive and always radiating energy which affected Baby in a nice way.  Kristic simply has not played enough time to get any kind of rhythym.  Green and Kristic took the Lakers to six games starting for OKC.  Their production will improve.  It's only a matter of time when Green will have his breakthrough game.  I'll go ahead and say it'll be this Sunday.  Once our bench develops that swagger we will be complete. 

[willis33]

Energy energy energy.  That's what the C's don't have in their bench.  Maybe it's because so many of their bench players used to be starters.  It was the Perk trade that killed the energy they had, but it wasn't Perk.  It was Nate Robinson.  He was the energizer bunny and his personality could get people going.  If you watch early games he was jumping up and cheering from the opening tip to the end of the game whether he was playing 20 min or 2.  He'd come into the game and go a million miles/hour and the guys would have to keep up with him.  Now we have 7 guys sitting around waiting to get into the game and they come in flat, shocker.  Then they get into the game as it goes on.  I wasn't a big fan of Nate's game since he was so streaky but I loved his energy.  You also knew he was getting a shot off withing a minute of coming in.  Does it really surprise anyone when Green and baby don't shoot until they get a completely wide open look.  And I agree that the defense is terrible when they are out there.  It was a totally different dynamic first half of the season.  They weren't better scorers, it just seemed like that because they were so much better defensively.  It's gonna be sickening watching big Z and joel anthony getting 10 offensive boards a game with Green and baby in there.

[Marcus13]

Or maybe it's just time that we realize that we severely overrate our roleplayers.

We continue to say that we have one of the best benches in the League...but there haven't even been glimpsea to show that's accurate

[clover]

The bench looks exactly like the starting unit during the last 15 games of the year.  Common link?...the lack of a real center.

The bench is playing without a true center.  Sadly, Kristic doesn't really count.  Not only does this weaken them massively on defense, but it also handicaps them on the boards.  Any combination of Green+Baby+Kristic seems to get MAULED on the boards. 

When Shaq comes back, JO will likely split his minutes between the starters and bench...and that alone will cure many of their defensive problems (which are less obvious due to their offensive problems...but perhaps more important in the scheme of things).

Offensively speaking though, I think we are all missing one important factor in all of this.  The Knicks on the whole, are playing small ball...ESPECIALLY their bench.  In looking at our bench, what is it's potential advantage over other team's benches?  Size.  Delonte is larger than many point guards.  Jeff Green is large for a 3.  Baby is just plain large.  Once Shaq arrives, JO will serve as a large TRUE center.

This Knicks team is just a bad matchup for the Celtics bench.  With a true center against Miami and Chicago, I'm sure the bench will hold its own.  Already Jeff Green is picking things up on defense...Carmelo is pretty good practice in preparation for Lebron, to say the least.  He's also slowly learning to pick his spots.

JO will serve as a truly fantastic bench center. 

Really though, when we're talking about bench problems, we're really referring to Baby and Delonte.  What's wrong with them, I don't know.  Delonte needs to take his open 3's with confidence, and Baby needs to bang inside.  I have a feeling that once Delonte rights the way, the ball control and clock management won't be such an issue, and we'll see Glen get his offensive opportunities before the shot clock expires, jeees.  Clock management.  Once Delonte decides to play like his normal self, we'll see better shots from the bench, and Baby in particular.

I'll be shocked if Shaq can give them any minutes to speak of, but JO's been great and he was up to 27 minutes last night.  I could see him adding a few more minutes each series until he's up to 40 minutes at some point in the finals.

[ballin]

Or maybe it's just time that we realize that we severely overrate our roleplayers.

We continue to say that we have one of the best benches in the League...but there haven't even been glimpsea to show that's accurate

TP, that's what I keep trying to tell everybody!!!!!!

Our bench gets its butt kicked night-in and night-out. The other team's bench always outscores ours, and frankly, that's the bottom line.

If Davis were anywhere close to the player some people are alleging he is, our bench wouldn't be -17 on a regular basis, as it was tonight IN A BLOWOUT. Considering Davis plays the most minutes off the bench, by far, this is obviously mostly attributable to him.

His PER for the season (I don't love this stat, but other people seem to so I'm throwing it out there) is 12.8. The league average is FIFTEEN. That means Davis is a below average player even after accounting for every single scrub that has seen a minute of gametime.

Guess what his playoff PER is? 3.9.

Jason Terry's playoff PER is 23.2, and Lamar Odom had a PER of 19.4 on the season. Every other stat backs this up.

Bottom line? Glen Davis isn't even in the same league as true quality bench players. Our bench play sucks because our bench players suck, namely Davis, and that's the end of it.

For comparison, here are some of the players coming off the bench for other teams:

Portland - Brandon Roy
Denver - Wilson Chandler, JR Smith
Grizzlies - OJ Mayo

all of those players are also much better than Davis.

[clover]

The bench looks exactly like the starting unit during the last 15 games of the year.  Common link?...the lack of a real center.

The bench is playing without a true center.  Sadly, Kristic doesn't really count.  Not only does this weaken them massively on defense, but it also handicaps them on the boards.  Any combination of Green+Baby+Kristic seems to get MAULED on the boards. 

When Shaq comes back, JO will likely split his minutes between the starters and bench...and that alone will cure many of their defensive problems (which are less obvious due to their offensive problems...but perhaps more important in the scheme of things).

Offensively speaking though, I think we are all missing one important factor in all of this.  The Knicks on the whole, are playing small ball...ESPECIALLY their bench.  In looking at our bench, what is it's potential advantage over other team's benches?  Size.  Delonte is larger than many point guards.  Jeff Green is large for a 3.  Baby is just plain large.  Once Shaq arrives, JO will serve as a large TRUE center.

This Knicks team is just a bad matchup for the Celtics bench.  With a true center against Miami and Chicago, I'm sure the bench will hold its own.  Already Jeff Green is picking things up on defense...Carmelo is pretty good practice in preparation for Lebron, to say the least.  He's also slowly learning to pick his spots.

JO will serve as a truly fantastic bench center. 

Really though, when we're talking about bench problems, we're really referring to Baby and Delonte.  What's wrong with them, I don't know.  Delonte needs to take his open 3's with confidence, and Baby needs to bang inside.  I have a feeling that once Delonte rights the way, the ball control and clock management won't be such an issue, and we'll see Glen get his offensive opportunities before the shot clock expires, jeees.  Clock management.  Once Delonte decides to play like his normal self, we'll see better shots from the bench, and Baby in particular.

Oh, and I understand it may be difficult for the rotations, since Doc plays KG and JO fewer minutes, but I think you may be on to something:  Though Doc has been trying to leave a couple of the backcourt guys in with the bench players, it may make more sense to go the other way--and try to always have KG or JO in with them.

[CelticHooligan3]

I will say this. As poorly as Jeff Green has played so far for us I think his mere prescribe here has done wonders for Paul Pierce. He looks rejuvenated out there when he comes in for Green.

Even just those few extra minutes are going a long way in increasing Pauls productivity. I think this is a greatly undercooked aspect of the trade.

I won't disagree with anyone saying Jeff Green is soft. Cause frankly what I've seen of the kid so far he is. But I still think Danny did the right thing pulling the trigger on it cause one we weren't resigning Perk and two we NEEDED a backup wing desperately.

It's increasing Pierces production and longevity as we move forward each round. And it's a necessity when we meet the diva LBJ. Ya we could maybe have gotten other wings. And I agree with the people who say Gerald Wallace would have been the best bet. But we will never know how feasible that trade would have been. And I didn't see many other available wings I'd rather have besides green or Wallace.

[amenhotep04]

Right now the main problem is Delonte West, and then Big Baby Davis. Next to that, is Doc putting some bad units with poor matchups on the floor. Though Davis is cutting on his shot attempts in the last couple of games which has been for the best.

We speak of the mediocrity of Green's defense, but I've thought has played very good defense in this series so far, particularly against Carmelo. And he has been rebounding better. 3 rebounds in 12 minutes is not bad, and 4 rebounds 21 minutes is not bad either.

Krstic is simply having some tough match-ups in there. For example, today they had him guarding a quick perimeter big, which doesn't make much sense to me.

Considering the problems that stem from using small lineups against the Knicks 2nd unit, we have to start using Murphy a bit more since it's apparent that Doc is incapable of using Krstic in matchup which would enable him to compete appropriately. Maybe see some Arroyo instead of West for a time, and maybe use a bit of Wafer to speed up that unit more.

Maybe that's just what's missing, a bit more speed and stop running half-court offense with West's hesitation.

I've learned over the years never to disagree with BWC, and I won't begin here. What I might add is that the talent on the second unit is equal to or better than a lot of teams in this league. They only need to play to a draw on most nights. So a conclusion I have is that they haven't had much practice time together. If Doc isn't practicing the team for rest reasons, these guys cannot work together. Playing for a few minutes every other night isn't going to make a cohesive unit. They just don't appear to have a feel for each other.