Garnett had same exact offensive foul called on him that Melo did.

[Senninsage]

I'm honestly really tired of hearing about that offensive foul on Melo, because Knicks fans and analysis sure as hell weren't complaining or whining when the same exact calls were going against the Celtics. Nothing was given to us, the Knicks had a ton of things going their way. The Celtics outplayed the Knicks when it mattered the most.

http://www.nba.com/playoffs/2011/eastseries3/index.html?g=1&t=bs#Q2

   03:32    Garnett Foul : Offensive (1 PF)

That offensive foul in the second quarter on garnett was exactly the same as what Melo was called for in the 4th quarter. If we are going to get such things called on us, Melo doing it in even more blatant fashion, should have it called on him as well.

That call on Garnett also directly led to a score for the Knicks on the other end, padding their advantage.

Don't even get me started on that bad illegal screen call made on Delonte, which took the ball from the Celtics, when Ray was wide open for a 3 pointer. Delonte didn't even get to set a screen at all, he had already ran past Delonte. Then there were a number of close range shot attempts where the celtics were clearly hit, and should have gone to stripe for two.

If you don't believe me that the call was exactly the same, go back and watch it. I know some of you guys have DVR. It was the same exact thing Melo was called for, so it's consistent. Melo's was far more blatant, however. And both Turiaf and Pierce did an acting job to sell it.

Is Turiaf the only player allowed to sell a bit of contact? I think not. It's apart of the game, and the Celtics won. It's insulting when I see people claiming the game was handed to the Celtics. Not a [dang] thing was handed to them, they earned that win.

[KobeShesNotConsenting!]

Love this post but i think people are more upset with the timing of the call in that it was like 30 seconds left or whatever it was. But I'm with you. It's very interesting that the celtics have never gotten bailed out like this by the media (outside of Tommy) when we received questionable calls against us in much bigger games like *cough, cough, the FINALS, cough cough* and several other occasions

[Senninsage]

That's exactly what it is. It's a media bailout for a Knicks team that had all the momentum in the world, and couldn't maintain it.

I suppose the majority of the third quarter, and Jermaine's defensive performance, along with his nice timely offense, and the shots that Ray hit, or the plays that Green made, like the block, leading to the jump ball, which he won, were all handed to the Celts as well.

Fact is, the media would more like to pin the Knicks' loss on bad officiating rather than acknowledging the fact that Knicks had one of the absolute best advantages at half time that you can have on the Boston Celtics at home, and they couldn't capitalize on it.

Where is the criticism for the fact that Amare, who was on fire, and had given the Knicks 12 points in that 4th quarter, never touched the ball again after his amazing plays in that 4th quarter? Where is the criticism for the fact that Melo could have taken a 2 pointer, or driven to the basket, but instead opted for a game winning hero 3 on 2 Celtics players?

Heck, he could have even passed it to Amare, who has shown he can hit big shots when it matters, especially against this Celtics team? They might as well blame the ref for the fact that Melo only had 15 points, too.

[dtrader]

I'm honestly really tired of hearing about that offensive foul on Melo, because Knicks fans and analysis sure as hell weren't complaining or whining when the same exact calls were going against the Celtics. Nothing was given to us, the Knicks had a ton of things going their way. The Celtics outplayed the Knicks when it mattered the most.

http://www.nba.com/playoffs/2011/eastseries3/index.html?g=1&t=bs#Q2

   03:32    Garnett Foul : Offensive (1 PF)

That offensive foul in the second quarter on garnett was exactly the same as what Melo was called for in the 4th quarter. If we are going to get such things called on us, Melo doing it in even more blatant fashion, should have it called on him as well.

That call on Garnett also directly led to a score for the Knicks on the other end, padding their advantage.

Don't even get me started on that bad illegal screen call made on Delonte, which took the ball from the Celtics, when Ray was wide open for a 3 pointer. Delonte didn't even get to set a screen at all, he had already ran past Delonte. Then there were a number of close range shot attempts where the celtics were clearly hit, and should have gone to stripe for two.

If you don't believe me that the call was exactly the same, go back and watch it. I know some of you guys have DVR. It was the same exact thing Melo was called for, so it's consistent. Melo's was far more blatant, however. And both Turiaf and Pierce did an acting job to sell it.

Is Turiaf the only player allowed to sell a bit of contact? I think not. It's apart of the game, and the Celtics won. It's insulting when I see people claiming the game was handed to the Celtics. Not a [dang] thing was handed to them, they earned that win.

No one ever said that the foul call on Melo has NEVER happened before.  The whole issue with it, was the timing. Comparing it to a foul that happened in the second quarter doesnt make sense. Comparing it to a foul in the second quarter, where the score wasn't tight makes even less sense.  The whole point, is that the call is one that is ALMOST NEVER made with under a minute left in a tie game. In that instance, the call takes on the possible significance of it being the deciding factor...ie the refs possibly determining the game.

The players choices, or where the ball went, or how they played well here and not there, doesn't have anything to do with it. The whole question is about whether or not (or to what extent), the game was taken out of the players hands in the closing minutes.  Saying it's a media construct doesn't make much sense, when it's Boston celtics FANS here discussing it =/

Plus, Delonte DID set an illegal screen.  He was still moving his body towards the baseline as the defender past him.  The commentators saying it was illegal due to his foot being on the line were wrong, but it was an illegal screen either way. 

Really though..this is why the call on Melo is so questionable... Delonte's screen (whether legal or illegal) led to a defender not being able to recover in time to guard his man.  Melos move (whether legal or illegal) did NOT result in any noticeable difference in Pierces defensive position. It didn't give Melo any noticeable advantage. All it did was create a little bit of space between the two of them (while Melos back was turned away from the rim, so he couldn't even use the space to shoot).  If it's the last minute of the game, and a player makes a move that doesn't even give him a noticeable advantage, there is NO reason to make the call, and take the game out of the players hands.

[Neurotic Guy]

Great post and you are correct about the equal nature (actually I thought Melo's was slightly more egregious) of the calls, though the timing of Melo's justly inspires the fury of Knicks fans (as we'd be likewise inspired if the situation were reversed).

But frankly this type of media reaction is best left unresponded to in my opinion.   Calls, good and bad, are part of the history of all sports and never results in a team being denied the win. What's done is done.  We got this one and that's all that matters.  If the Knicks are the better team, they still have 6 games to prove it.

[Assassin70]

They had the ball last and choked.

If they put the ball in Amare's hands they might have won.  Blame your coach Knick fans not the Ref's.

[Senninsage]

I'm honestly really tired of hearing about that offensive foul on Melo, because Knicks fans and analysis sure as hell weren't complaining or whining when the same exact calls were going against the Celtics. Nothing was given to us, the Knicks had a ton of things going their way. The Celtics outplayed the Knicks when it mattered the most.

http://www.nba.com/playoffs/2011/eastseries3/index.html?g=1&t=bs#Q2

   03:32    Garnett Foul : Offensive (1 PF)

That offensive foul in the second quarter on garnett was exactly the same as what Melo was called for in the 4th quarter. If we are going to get such things called on us, Melo doing it in even more blatant fashion, should have it called on him as well.

That call on Garnett also directly led to a score for the Knicks on the other end, padding their advantage.

Don't even get me started on that bad illegal screen call made on Delonte, which took the ball from the Celtics, when Ray was wide open for a 3 pointer. Delonte didn't even get to set a screen at all, he had already ran past Delonte. Then there were a number of close range shot attempts where the celtics were clearly hit, and should have gone to stripe for two.

If you don't believe me that the call was exactly the same, go back and watch it. I know some of you guys have DVR. It was the same exact thing Melo was called for, so it's consistent. Melo's was far more blatant, however. And both Turiaf and Pierce did an acting job to sell it.

Is Turiaf the only player allowed to sell a bit of contact? I think not. It's apart of the game, and the Celtics won. It's insulting when I see people claiming the game was handed to the Celtics. Not a [dang] thing was handed to them, they earned that win.

No one ever said that the foul call on Melo has NEVER happened before.  The whole issue with it, was the timing. Comparing it to a foul that happened in the second quarter doesnt make sense. Comparing it to a foul in the second quarter, where the score wasn't tight makes even less sense.  The whole point, is that the call is one that is ALMOST NEVER made with under a minute left in a tie game. In that instance, the call takes on the possible significance of it being the deciding factor...ie the refs possibly determining the game.

The players choices, or where the ball went, or how they played well here and not there, doesn't have anything to do with it. The whole question is about whether or not (or to what extent), the game was taken out of the players hands in the closing minutes.  Saying it's a media construct doesn't make much sense, when it's Boston celtics FANS here discussing it =/

Plus, Delonte DID set an illegal screen.  He was still moving his body towards the baseline as the defender past him.  The commentators saying it was illegal due to his foot being on the line were wrong, but it was an illegal screen either way. 

Really though..this is why the call on Melo is so questionable... Delonte's screen (whether legal or illegal) led to a defender not being able to recover in time to guard his man.  Melos move (whether legal or illegal) did NOT result in any noticeable difference in Pierces defensive position. It didn't give Melo any noticeable advantage. All it did was create a little bit of space between the two of them (while Melos back was turned away from the rim, so he couldn't even use the space to shoot).  If it's the last minute of the game, and a player makes a move that doesn't even give him a noticeable advantage, there is NO reason to make the call, and take the game out of the players hands.

Timing of the call is absolutely irrelevant. So, just because the game is down to the final moments, a player gets to do whatever he wants? If someone is jacking a three, you can just push him down? If someone drives to the basket, you can just slap them in the head?

Second quarter, fourth quarter, it does not matter. Stop making excuses for the Knicks. They had all the momentum in the world coming into the second half, and were outplayed in the final half of the game by the Celtics.

Melo made an ill advised move. He used his left elbow and forced it into Pierce to try and create some space, and he paid for it. Melo could have very easily received the ball without resorting to such a move, but he did, and he paid for it.

There is, realistically, no difference between the call the call that is made in the second quarter, and the call that is made in the 4th quarter. Every call throughout the whole game has potential to decide the game. In fact, calls like the one on Garnett almost DID decide the game.

It contributed to the half time advantage that the Knicks had, and don't try and tell me that that isn't significant. If the Knicks play a far better 3rd quarter, the second quarter calls are likely further magnified in their importance. You can't expect refs to toss out a good chunk of the rules of officiating a basketball just because the game is in the crunch time moments. The refs gotta officiate the game to the end.

[theswitch]

Am I the only one who can't find a clip of an offensive foul? I might be missing something, but I don't see it in that video.

To clarify, I'm not debating the foul, I just can't find the actual footage.

[dtrader]

I'm honestly really tired of hearing about that offensive foul on Melo, because Knicks fans and analysis sure as hell weren't complaining or whining when the same exact calls were going against the Celtics. Nothing was given to us, the Knicks had a ton of things going their way. The Celtics outplayed the Knicks when it mattered the most.

http://www.nba.com/playoffs/2011/eastseries3/index.html?g=1&t=bs#Q2

   03:32    Garnett Foul : Offensive (1 PF)

That offensive foul in the second quarter on garnett was exactly the same as what Melo was called for in the 4th quarter. If we are going to get such things called on us, Melo doing it in even more blatant fashion, should have it called on him as well.

That call on Garnett also directly led to a score for the Knicks on the other end, padding their advantage.

Don't even get me started on that bad illegal screen call made on Delonte, which took the ball from the Celtics, when Ray was wide open for a 3 pointer. Delonte didn't even get to set a screen at all, he had already ran past Delonte. Then there were a number of close range shot attempts where the celtics were clearly hit, and should have gone to stripe for two.

If you don't believe me that the call was exactly the same, go back and watch it. I know some of you guys have DVR. It was the same exact thing Melo was called for, so it's consistent. Melo's was far more blatant, however. And both Turiaf and Pierce did an acting job to sell it.

Is Turiaf the only player allowed to sell a bit of contact? I think not. It's apart of the game, and the Celtics won. It's insulting when I see people claiming the game was handed to the Celtics. Not a [dang] thing was handed to them, they earned that win.

No one ever said that the foul call on Melo has NEVER happened before.  The whole issue with it, was the timing. Comparing it to a foul that happened in the second quarter doesnt make sense. Comparing it to a foul in the second quarter, where the score wasn't tight makes even less sense.  The whole point, is that the call is one that is ALMOST NEVER made with under a minute left in a tie game. In that instance, the call takes on the possible significance of it being the deciding factor...ie the refs possibly determining the game.

The players choices, or where the ball went, or how they played well here and not there, doesn't have anything to do with it. The whole question is about whether or not (or to what extent), the game was taken out of the players hands in the closing minutes.  Saying it's a media construct doesn't make much sense, when it's Boston celtics FANS here discussing it =/

Plus, Delonte DID set an illegal screen.  He was still moving his body towards the baseline as the defender past him.  The commentators saying it was illegal due to his foot being on the line were wrong, but it was an illegal screen either way. 

Really though..this is why the call on Melo is so questionable... Delonte's screen (whether legal or illegal) led to a defender not being able to recover in time to guard his man.  Melos move (whether legal or illegal) did NOT result in any noticeable difference in Pierces defensive position. It didn't give Melo any noticeable advantage. All it did was create a little bit of space between the two of them (while Melos back was turned away from the rim, so he couldn't even use the space to shoot).  If it's the last minute of the game, and a player makes a move that doesn't even give him a noticeable advantage, there is NO reason to make the call, and take the game out of the players hands.

Timing of the call is absolutely irrelevant. So, just because the game is down to the final moments, a player gets to do whatever he wants? If someone is jacking a three, you can just push him down? If someone drives to the basket, you can just slap them in the head?

Second quarter, fourth quarter, it does not matter. Stop making excuses for the Knicks. They had all the momentum in the world coming into the second half, and were outplayed in the final half of the game by the Celtics.

Melo made an ill advised move. He used his left elbow and forced it into Pierce to try and create some space, and he paid for it. Melo could have very easily received the ball without resorting to such a move, but he did, and he paid for it.

There is, realistically, no difference between the call the call that is made in the second quarter, and the call that is made in the 4th quarter. Every call throughout the whole game has potential to decide the game. In fact, calls like the one on Garnett almost DID decide the game.

It contributed to the half time advantage that the Knicks had, and don't try and tell me that that isn't significant. If the Knicks play a far better 3rd quarter, the second quarter calls are likely further magnified in their importance. You can't expect refs to toss out a good chunk of the rules of officiating a basketball just because the game is in the crunch time moments. The refs gotta officiate the game to the end.

No one said that refs should let players do anything they want, or throw anyone to the ground....they should just call the game consistently, and let the players decide the games outcome.  I can't speak for everyone, but I would think that you'd be in the minority in saying that calls in the final (deciding) minute of a game aren't more significant than those in the early stages.  Yes, a game SHOULD be called consistently throughout, but that is almost never the case.  In the closing seconds of a game, refs usually try their best to stay out of the action, and only make the most necessary calls.

"Ill advised" or not, Melo didn't gain any advantage from the move he made.  What is the justification, for a ref calling a foul on a player in the closing seconds of the game, if the move he makes doesnt give him any advantage?  It's not like he stepped out of bounds, traveled, double dribbled, or anything. Any of those things, may have given him an advantage, but as you just said..he didn't even need to do what he did. If it doesn't give the offensive player any noticeable advantage, and it doesn't have any noticeable effect on the defender, it should go uncalled in the closing seconds.  That should be the definition of what a good "non call" by an official is.

[Senninsage]

Am I the only one who can't find a clip of an offensive foul? I might be missing something, but I don't see it in that video.

To clarify, I'm not debating the foul, I just can't find the actual footage.

The clip isn't in there, look at the play by play for the second quarter, for when KG gets that offensive foul. I have the game recorded on my dvr. I watched it last night again, and again this morning. The offensive foul on Kevin Garnett was exactly the same kind of call as the one on Melo late in the game. In fact, Melo's was even worse than KG's foul.

So, I don't think Knicks fans have the luxury of glancing over what I believed to be a bad call on KG, just because it favored their team. Fact is, either call could have been let go, but if the refs call a less serious looking one on KG, they better call a more serious looking one on Melo.

And don't get me started on the illegal screen call on Delonte. And there was a lot of contact on attempted celtics close baskets that were simply not called. I made a promise that I wasn't going to whine about the calls, and just felt that, regardless of calls, the celts should be able to find their way to a win, but all these Knicks fans trying to act as if the Knicks were robbed doesn't hold water. They were outplayed in the third and fourth quarters, simple as that.

The Celtics made runs, the Knicks responded by not folding, and even took a 5 point advantage after, and 2 big threes late, one from Chauncy, another from Douglas. Clutch baskets from Amare, and we still came back and won. Knicks fans probably think the refs gave us that out of bounds alley hoop play too.

No one said that refs should let players do anything they want, or throw anyone to the ground....they should just call the game consistently,

Calling the exact same call that was called on Kevin Garnett in the second quarter, IS consistency.

[Tai]

I'm honestly really tired of hearing about that offensive foul on Melo, because Knicks fans and analysis sure as hell weren't complaining or whining when the same exact calls were going against the Celtics. Nothing was given to us, the Knicks had a ton of things going their way. The Celtics outplayed the Knicks when it mattered the most.

http://www.nba.com/playoffs/2011/eastseries3/index.html?g=1&t=bs#Q2

   03:32    Garnett Foul : Offensive (1 PF)

That offensive foul in the second quarter on garnett was exactly the same as what Melo was called for in the 4th quarter. If we are going to get such things called on us, Melo doing it in even more blatant fashion, should have it called on him as well.

That call on Garnett also directly led to a score for the Knicks on the other end, padding their advantage.

Don't even get me started on that bad illegal screen call made on Delonte, which took the ball from the Celtics, when Ray was wide open for a 3 pointer. Delonte didn't even get to set a screen at all, he had already ran past Delonte. Then there were a number of close range shot attempts where the celtics were clearly hit, and should have gone to stripe for two.

If you don't believe me that the call was exactly the same, go back and watch it. I know some of you guys have DVR. It was the same exact thing Melo was called for, so it's consistent. Melo's was far more blatant, however. And both Turiaf and Pierce did an acting job to sell it.

Is Turiaf the only player allowed to sell a bit of contact? I think not. It's apart of the game, and the Celtics won. It's insulting when I see people claiming the game was handed to the Celtics. Not a [dang] thing was handed to them, they earned that win.

No one ever said that the foul call on Melo has NEVER happened before.  The whole issue with it, was the timing. Comparing it to a foul that happened in the second quarter doesnt make sense. Comparing it to a foul in the second quarter, where the score wasn't tight makes even less sense.  The whole point, is that the call is one that is ALMOST NEVER made with under a minute left in a tie game. In that instance, the call takes on the possible significance of it being the deciding factor...ie the refs possibly determining the game.

The players choices, or where the ball went, or how they played well here and not there, doesn't have anything to do with it. The whole question is about whether or not (or to what extent), the game was taken out of the players hands in the closing minutes.  Saying it's a media construct doesn't make much sense, when it's Boston celtics FANS here discussing it =/

Plus, Delonte DID set an illegal screen.  He was still moving his body towards the baseline as the defender past him.  The commentators saying it was illegal due to his foot being on the line were wrong, but it was an illegal screen either way. 

Really though..this is why the call on Melo is so questionable... Delonte's screen (whether legal or illegal) led to a defender not being able to recover in time to guard his man.  Melos move (whether legal or illegal) did NOT result in any noticeable difference in Pierces defensive position. It didn't give Melo any noticeable advantage. All it did was create a little bit of space between the two of them (while Melos back was turned away from the rim, so he couldn't even use the space to shoot).  If it's the last minute of the game, and a player makes a move that doesn't even give him a noticeable advantage, there is NO reason to make the call, and take the game out of the players hands.

So Melo's foul only isn't a foul cause it's the 4th quarter? You can't elbow people twice like that, man. That's what Melo did. He didn't do it once, he did it twice. Melo was pushing his luck, plain, simple.

[Senninsage]

And doing something illegal like using your elbow to make it easier for you to receive the ball, is absolutely gaining an advantage on the other player.

I will make a video of Garnett's offensive foul for people to see here, just give me a bit of time.

[JoT]

I understand and do agree to an extent about the same call being on Garnett and Melo, but the Knicks fans are angry because of the timing of the call. If the timing of the call was around 6 minutes in the fourth quarter, I don't think they would be as mad and to add to that KG didn't get called for tripping Douglass whether it was an accident or purpose I don't know, but that along with the foul on Melo Was what angered many fans. Also the fact that when Ray made his winning shot Delonte came on the court excited and the refs didn't notice, that would've been a foul, but they didn't call it and that too angered Knicks fans.
Besides that if they would've kept their lead, that foul wouldn't have mattered as much. The refs didn't blow a 12 point lead,  the refs didn't shoot 1-11 in the second half, the refs didn't make the winning 3,the refs werent in a timeout and didn't make a plan if the Celtics regained the lead, the refs weren't outcoached in the final minute, and the refs werent playing hero ball and shot a 3 pointer that obviously from the way he released it wasn't going in. The Knicks and their coach weren't prepared and choked a bit and that's why they loss the game. Melo should've passed the ball to hot hand Amare or try for a tie to get overtime, but no Melo wanted to make a statement game winner against the Celtics a team that the Knicks haven't beaten all year and it backfired. They wouldn't have had to scramble in the first place if they kept their lead after the second half and not let the Celtics back in.

[Senninsage]

It's all excuses for a team that was outplayed down the stretch, if you ask me.

Garnett's seeming late screen attempt on douglas, which seemingly knocked him down is a better argument than that Melo call, but then what about the plays where Ray Allen, while moving to get into position was shoved down to the floor under the basket? That wasn't called either.

How about the plays where, on rebounds, Celtics players were clearly pushed by Knicks players, so they could recover the rebound? How about the many times the Celtics went to the basket, were clearly hit, and nothing was called?

Knicks fans can't have it both ways. Celtics fans aren't suppose to feel equally robbed simply because the bad calls against us came earlier in the game? Might I add that, due to a number of those bad calls, the Knicks nearly ran away with this game in blowout fashion? That is as much cause as any for Celtics fans to be p---ed.

Either way, it came down to which team was the better team last nigh down the stretch, and that better team was the Celtics. I'm sorry, but Knicks fans can cling to this one as much as they want, but their team lost. They should be more worried about their team coming out to win in the next set of games, as opposed to trying to pin any possible failures on their team's part, future or present, on one game, that should absolutely have been theirs with the kind of lead they had coming into the third.

[Senninsage]

Here, I've uploaded Garnett's offensive foul.

http://www.fileserve.com/file/xHjKjsp

It's the same exact thing as what Melo did, only Melo's looked worse than Garnett's did, in my view.

So, Celtics fans don't get to complain about this call, at a point in the 2nd when the Knicks only had a 4 point advantage, but Knicks fan get to complain about Melo doing the same thing, but worse, and it being called?

If that call isn't made, there's a good chance the Celtics don't end up going down by as much as they did. Garnett, in the position he was in, may have actually scored that shot. Turiaf was at a huge disadvantage. Knicks fans, I'm sure, were celebrating when that offensive foul was called on Garnett, giving them a chance to stretch the lead, which they did. All these calls ultimately end up being significant.

The Celtics took it on the chin, and fought their way back. Knicks fans have no complaint at all when their team were up by such a huge margin, and blew it because they were simply outplayed. It wasn't the case that the refs "gave the Celtics the game" as many Knicks fans are saying.