Rondo making a late case for MVP?

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I think Steph Curry is an underrated player.

Monta Ellis' presence on that team is holding him back. Ellis dominates the ball too much ... relegates Curry to a smaller role than he should have (as a passer/playmaker rather than more scoring).

I think Curry would be an 8-9 assist guy ... and possibly 10+ assist guy down the road ... on a team that better took advantage of his passing skills. A very impressive passer. Good vision, good decision, excellent range of passing.

Not as good a passer as Rajon Rondo or a Deron Williams but I would consider Curry one of the top five or six best passing PGs in the league.

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I also believe that Steph Curry is one of those guys who will grow considerably as he gets more responsibility on the court. He doesn't quite understand just how gifted he truly is ... he reminds me a lot of a younger Nash in that respect (Nash early in Dallas to Nash late in Dallas to Nash with Phoenix = as his respective team better took advantage of his skill-set + as Nash's confidence in his ability grew + as he developed) ... Curry knows he's good but he hasn't been put in a position where he can figure out just how brilliant he can be.

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I also think Curry can become an average defender/rebounder after spending some time on a quality defensive team.

For real though, Steph Curry is a unique talent.  Possibly one of the best shooters in the league, so he's definitely going to grow into something more than he is now... But him having less assists in Golden State can be said about Rondo not scoring as much here.  Imagine if Rondo had a team that ran more, and had decent 3 point shooting around him.  Rondo would be exceptional in that sort of system.

Yeah, but the Warriors play lots on one on one basketball, and they have Ellis. I don't really think the same thing can be said.

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Rondo hasn't even played like a top 10 point guard this year, never mind a top 10 MVP. Imagine if Paul Pierce, in his prime, got the kind of mainstream appeal Rondo gets.

Seriously?  He's led the league in Assists for almost the entire season, and has been near the top of the league in Steals all season, and you don't think he's a Top 10 PG?

I'd like to hear the 10 Point Guards that are better than Rondo.

Currently, Nash, Rose, Wall, Westbrook, Paul, Williams, Parker, and Kidd are all better than Rondo. I think Rondo belongs in the tier with Jennings and Curry.

There is no way Rondo is in the same league as Jennings and Curry. Leading the league in assists and steals during the season makes him an elite point guard.
This blog is absurd sometimes.

Why does leading in assists and steals have to make him an "elite" point guard? He is also the worst free throw shooter, the leader in turnovers, not a threat shooting the ball, and has seen his stats decrease from last year in many important areas besides assists. There's more to the game than getting assists and steals. Curry is a very complete player, Rondo is not.

  Curry can't pass or handle the ball as well, rebound as well or defend as well as Rondo. Sounds "very complete".

Curry handles the ball and passes fine. What are you basing, "He can't handle the ball from?" Sounds like a very subjective claim based on nothing to strengthen your argument. Curry is also the best shooting point guard in the league, if not the best shooter period. Rondo is not a good/great defender. He doesn't keep his man in front of him. Delonte does a much better job of keeping his man in front of him than Rondo. Curry is a very capable defender playing on a team whose philosophy is to play no defense. In short, I'd rather have Curry playing point guard for this team than Rondo.

  Honestly, you claim that handling the ball and passing are subjective and then you go into Rondo's defense? Haha. Curry has more ballhandling turnovers than Rondo even though he probably handles the ball much less with Ellis on the team. Rondo's assist/bad pass ratio is over 50% higher than Curry's.

  And aside from making the last two all defense teams Rondo' opponents have a lower PER, lower eFG%, score fewer points, take fewer free throws, get fewer rebounds and fewer assists than Curry's opponents. So the stats back up all of my "subjective" claims and none of yours. You're right about the shooting though, but that seems to be the only phase of their games that you're able to tell who's better and who's worse. It's no surprise that you'd rather have Curry running the Celts.

The Warriors are second worst in the league in opponents points per game. The Celtics are the best. I don't understand your argument. Defense is dependent upon the team. Have you never heard of "team defense"? The Warriors are also rank 5th in pace, so they are going to score a lot and give up a lot of points. The Celtics are near the bottom when it comes to pace.





And I said, your claim about Curry's BALL HANDLING was subjective, not the defense.


And if Rondo averaged anything less than 11 assists playing with four future hall of famers, then something would be wrong.

  Curry's defensive numbers are for the most part worse than Rondo's were in his rookie year when he was on the second worst team in the league.

  And how many people have ever averaged 11 assists playing with 3-4 future HOF players? You must be able to name quite a few if something's wrong when it *doesn't* happen.

  And, yes, I saw what you said about BALL HANDLING. But is it really that subjective if Rondo handles the ball more and has fewer turnovers? You've termed Rondo's turnover rate "alarming". Curry has more ballhandling turnovers and his passes are much more likely to end up as turnovers. How would you describe Curry's turnover issues? Truly frightening? Shockingly high? Or, more likely, not an issue because he "handles the ball and passes fine".

Why would I describe his turnover rates as "shockingly high" when he averages almost a full turnover less than Rondo, while playing on a bad team that plays at frantic pace all game with many, many more offensive possessions than the Celtics?

Also, you act like Curry being a better offensive player than Rondo is no big deal. Offense is half of the game, and Curry is one of the best offensive point guards in the league, without being a volume shooter, having a careful shot selection, and knowing the strengths of his game, all in his second year.


For their careers, Rondo averages exactly .4 more rebounds than Curry and 1.6 more assists, yet you act like Rondo is the dominant passer and rebounder: He isn't.

[ejk3489]

Rondo hasn't even played like a top 10 point guard this year, never mind a top 10 MVP. Imagine if Paul Pierce, in his prime, got the kind of mainstream appeal Rondo gets.

Seriously?  He's led the league in Assists for almost the entire season, and has been near the top of the league in Steals all season, and you don't think he's a Top 10 PG?

I'd like to hear the 10 Point Guards that are better than Rondo.

Currently, Nash, Rose, Wall, Westbrook, Paul, Williams, Parker, and Kidd are all better than Rondo. I think Rondo belongs in the tier with Jennings and Curry.

There is no way Rondo is in the same league as Jennings and Curry. Leading the league in assists and steals during the season makes him an elite point guard.
This blog is absurd sometimes.

Why does leading in assists and steals have to make him an "elite" point guard? He is also the worst free throw shooter, the leader in turnovers, not a threat shooting the ball, and has seen his stats decrease from last year in many important areas besides assists. There's more to the game than getting assists and steals. Curry is a very complete player, Rondo is not.

  Curry can't pass or handle the ball as well, rebound as well or defend as well as Rondo. Sounds "very complete".

Curry handles the ball and passes fine. What are you basing, "He can't handle the ball from?" Sounds like a very subjective claim based on nothing to strengthen your argument. Curry is also the best shooting point guard in the league, if not the best shooter period. Rondo is not a good/great defender. He doesn't keep his man in front of him. Delonte does a much better job of keeping his man in front of him than Rondo. Curry is a very capable defender playing on a team whose philosophy is to play no defense. In short, I'd rather have Curry playing point guard for this team than Rondo.

  Honestly, you claim that handling the ball and passing are subjective and then you go into Rondo's defense? Haha. Curry has more ballhandling turnovers than Rondo even though he probably handles the ball much less with Ellis on the team. Rondo's assist/bad pass ratio is over 50% higher than Curry's.

  And aside from making the last two all defense teams Rondo' opponents have a lower PER, lower eFG%, score fewer points, take fewer free throws, get fewer rebounds and fewer assists than Curry's opponents. So the stats back up all of my "subjective" claims and none of yours. You're right about the shooting though, but that seems to be the only phase of their games that you're able to tell who's better and who's worse. It's no surprise that you'd rather have Curry running the Celts.

The Warriors are second worst in the league in opponents points per game. The Celtics are the best. I don't understand your argument. Defense is dependent upon the team. Have you never heard of "team defense"? The Warriors are also rank 5th in pace, so they are going to score a lot and give up a lot of points. The Celtics are near the bottom when it comes to pace.





And I said, your claim about Curry's BALL HANDLING was subjective, not the defense.


And if Rondo averaged anything less than 11 assists playing with four future hall of famers, then something would be wrong.

  Curry's defensive numbers are for the most part worse than Rondo's were in his rookie year when he was on the second worst team in the league.

  And how many people have ever averaged 11 assists playing with 3-4 future HOF players? You must be able to name quite a few if something's wrong when it *doesn't* happen.

  And, yes, I saw what you said about BALL HANDLING. But is it really that subjective if Rondo handles the ball more and has fewer turnovers? You've termed Rondo's turnover rate "alarming". Curry has more ballhandling turnovers and his passes are much more likely to end up as turnovers. How would you describe Curry's turnover issues? Truly frightening? Shockingly high? Or, more likely, not an issue because he "handles the ball and passes fine".

Why would I describe his turnover rates as "shockingly high" when he averages almost a full turnover less than Rondo, while playing on a bad team that plays at frantic pace all game with many, many more offensive possessions than the Celtics?

Rondo averages 3.5 turnovers a game, Curry averages 3.1...since when is that "almost a full turnover less"?

Not to mention that Rondo averages 3.25 assists per turnover (4th best in the league) while Curry averages 1.88 assists per turnover (not even in the top 50).

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Rondo hasn't even played like a top 10 point guard this year, never mind a top 10 MVP. Imagine if Paul Pierce, in his prime, got the kind of mainstream appeal Rondo gets.

Seriously?  He's led the league in Assists for almost the entire season, and has been near the top of the league in Steals all season, and you don't think he's a Top 10 PG?

I'd like to hear the 10 Point Guards that are better than Rondo.

Currently, Nash, Rose, Wall, Westbrook, Paul, Williams, Parker, and Kidd are all better than Rondo. I think Rondo belongs in the tier with Jennings and Curry.

There is no way Rondo is in the same league as Jennings and Curry. Leading the league in assists and steals during the season makes him an elite point guard.
This blog is absurd sometimes.

Why does leading in assists and steals have to make him an "elite" point guard? He is also the worst free throw shooter, the leader in turnovers, not a threat shooting the ball, and has seen his stats decrease from last year in many important areas besides assists. There's more to the game than getting assists and steals. Curry is a very complete player, Rondo is not.

  Curry can't pass or handle the ball as well, rebound as well or defend as well as Rondo. Sounds "very complete".

Curry handles the ball and passes fine. What are you basing, "He can't handle the ball from?" Sounds like a very subjective claim based on nothing to strengthen your argument. Curry is also the best shooting point guard in the league, if not the best shooter period. Rondo is not a good/great defender. He doesn't keep his man in front of him. Delonte does a much better job of keeping his man in front of him than Rondo. Curry is a very capable defender playing on a team whose philosophy is to play no defense. In short, I'd rather have Curry playing point guard for this team than Rondo.

  Honestly, you claim that handling the ball and passing are subjective and then you go into Rondo's defense? Haha. Curry has more ballhandling turnovers than Rondo even though he probably handles the ball much less with Ellis on the team. Rondo's assist/bad pass ratio is over 50% higher than Curry's.

  And aside from making the last two all defense teams Rondo' opponents have a lower PER, lower eFG%, score fewer points, take fewer free throws, get fewer rebounds and fewer assists than Curry's opponents. So the stats back up all of my "subjective" claims and none of yours. You're right about the shooting though, but that seems to be the only phase of their games that you're able to tell who's better and who's worse. It's no surprise that you'd rather have Curry running the Celts.

The Warriors are second worst in the league in opponents points per game. The Celtics are the best. I don't understand your argument. Defense is dependent upon the team. Have you never heard of "team defense"? The Warriors are also rank 5th in pace, so they are going to score a lot and give up a lot of points. The Celtics are near the bottom when it comes to pace.





And I said, your claim about Curry's BALL HANDLING was subjective, not the defense.


And if Rondo averaged anything less than 11 assists playing with four future hall of famers, then something would be wrong.

  Curry's defensive numbers are for the most part worse than Rondo's were in his rookie year when he was on the second worst team in the league.

  And how many people have ever averaged 11 assists playing with 3-4 future HOF players? You must be able to name quite a few if something's wrong when it *doesn't* happen.

  And, yes, I saw what you said about BALL HANDLING. But is it really that subjective if Rondo handles the ball more and has fewer turnovers? You've termed Rondo's turnover rate "alarming". Curry has more ballhandling turnovers and his passes are much more likely to end up as turnovers. How would you describe Curry's turnover issues? Truly frightening? Shockingly high? Or, more likely, not an issue because he "handles the ball and passes fine".

Why would I describe his turnover rates as "shockingly high" when he averages almost a full turnover less than Rondo, while playing on a bad team that plays at frantic pace all game with many, many more offensive possessions than the Celtics?

Rondo averages 3.5 turnovers a game, Curry averages 3.1...since when is that "almost a full turnover less"?

Not to mention that Rondo averages 3.25 assists per turnover (4th best in the league) while Curry averages 1.88 assists per turnover (not even in the top 50).

My mistake. You're right. But I don't see how assist/turnover ratio is relevant when comparing Rondo and Curry. For one, Rondo passes to four hall of famers, whereas Curry plays with Monte "one on one" Ellis.

Do have anything to comment on about the rest of that post?

[BballTim]

  Honestly, you claim that handling the ball and passing are subjective and then you go into Rondo's defense? Haha. Curry has more ballhandling turnovers than Rondo even though he probably handles the ball much less with Ellis on the team. Rondo's assist/bad pass ratio is over 50% higher than Curry's.

  And aside from making the last two all defense teams Rondo' opponents have a lower PER, lower eFG%, score fewer points, take fewer free throws, get fewer rebounds and fewer assists than Curry's opponents. So the stats back up all of my "subjective" claims and none of yours. You're right about the shooting though, but that seems to be the only phase of their games that you're able to tell who's better and who's worse. It's no surprise that you'd rather have Curry running the Celts.

The Warriors are second worst in the league in opponents points per game. The Celtics are the best. I don't understand your argument. Defense is dependent upon the team. Have you never heard of "team defense"? The Warriors are also rank 5th in pace, so they are going to score a lot and give up a lot of points. The Celtics are near the bottom when it comes to pace.





And I said, your claim about Curry's BALL HANDLING was subjective, not the defense.


And if Rondo averaged anything less than 11 assists playing with four future hall of famers, then something would be wrong.

  Curry's defensive numbers are for the most part worse than Rondo's were in his rookie year when he was on the second worst team in the league.

  And how many people have ever averaged 11 assists playing with 3-4 future HOF players? You must be able to name quite a few if something's wrong when it *doesn't* happen.

  And, yes, I saw what you said about BALL HANDLING. But is it really that subjective if Rondo handles the ball more and has fewer turnovers? You've termed Rondo's turnover rate "alarming". Curry has more ballhandling turnovers and his passes are much more likely to end up as turnovers. How would you describe Curry's turnover issues? Truly frightening? Shockingly high? Or, more likely, not an issue because he "handles the ball and passes fine".

Why would I describe his turnover rates as "shockingly high" when he averages almost a full turnover less than Rondo, while playing on a bad team that plays at frantic pace all game with many, many more offensive possessions than the Celtics?

  Two things. One, Rondo averages slightly more turnovers but he averages *double* the assists. You don't like to believe this, but the two are related, and Rondo's turnover rate on his passes (where he gets the most turnovers) is 50% better than Curry's. Oh, and the "bad team that plays at frantic pace all game with many, many more offensive possessions than the Celtics" averages about 1 more possession per quarter. I don't think you needed many, many more in your description when slightly more would have worked.

Also, you act like Curry being a better offensive player than Rondo is no big deal. Offense is half of the game, and Curry is one of the best offensive point guards in the league, without being a volume shooter, having a careful shot selection, and knowing the strengths of his game, all in his second year.

  Offense is half the game, but there's more to offense than shooting. The Celts offense is better when Rondo's in the game because of his driving ability and his passing. Curry has better individual offense but Rondo helps out his team more.

For their careers, Rondo averages exactly .4 more rebounds than Curry and 1.6 more assists, yet you act like Rondo is the dominant passer and rebounder: He isn't.

  Haha. We're ignoring what they've done this year because Rondo didn't run the offense as much in 06-08?

[Fafnir]

Bad shots are almost as bad as turnovers, Curry takes too many of those. Playing next to Ellis and with the Warriors makes him hard to evaluate. Can he hone what overall are very good passing/baksetball instincts?

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I always appreciate the debates about Rondo with you BballTim. But it looks as though neither of us will be swayed. I will not accept that Rondo is a better all around player than Curry. We'll have to agree to disagree.

[BballTim]

My mistake. You're right. But I don't see how assist/turnover ratio is relevant when comparing Rondo and Curry. For one, Rondo passes to four hall of famers, whereas Curry plays with Monte "one on one" Ellis.

  Most turnovers from point guards come from passes. 70% or so of Rondo's turnovers are bad passes, almost 60% for Curry, and (for reference) less (sometimes well less) than 50% for PP/RA/KG. The only reason Rondo has a lot of turnovers is because he passes the ball so much. If you looked at non-passing turnovers he'd be very good compared to other point guards. KG/RA/PP have between 49 and 61 turnovers each, while Rondo has 53. Curry, by the way, has 60.

  If a player has a smaller amount of non-passing turnovers than most point guards and a lower rate of turnovers on his passes than most point guards then I would say that the player doesn't have a turnover problem.