Tim Legler "Derrick Rose is the best since Magic Johnson"

[Fafnir]

The media attention Rose is getting as a candidate for MVP is proof that team success is what leads to individual awards.

Rose is a great scorer off the dribble, but he is not elite at anything else.

Allen Iverson one year was considered the best basketball player in the world and that was the year he went to the finals.

The difference with Rose is that he actually has a really good supporting cast around him. The star of that team is actually the team defense. The fact that Rose is the primary scorer on a great defensive team means he gets all of the credit.

Also, from everything I have seen and heard, he seems like a really humble, and kind hearted person. That goes a long way with the media and annointing superstars.

He is a really really good player and can probably be the best player on a championship team. But he is not historically great. At least not yet. Not even close.

Allen Iverson had a very good team around him defenisvely. Very similar to the Bulls in that they are heavily dependent on their PG to carry their offense, while they mostly win by defending.

[Celtzfan8617]

A little off topic, but I don't understand why AI is getting so much love in this thread. Being a more productive player than Iverson is not much of an accomplishment. Sure, he scored a bunch of points, but at a sub par career 42.5% rate while turning the ball over nearly 4 times a game! Iverson was the definition of a volume shooter. I don't think that Rose really deserves to be in the MVP discussion, but already he is shooting, rebounding, diming, and taking care of the ball better than AI did.

[CelticG1]

A little off topic, but I don't understand why AI is getting so much love in this thread. Being a more productive player than Iverson is not much of an accomplishment. Sure, he scored a bunch of points, but at a sub par career 42.5% rate while turning the ball over nearly 4 times a game! Iverson was the definition of a volume shooter. I don't think that Rose really deserves to be in the MVP discussion, but already he is shooting, rebounding, diming, and taking care of the ball better than AI did.

Rose is second in the league in shot attempts next to Monta Ellis. SECOND on a slow paced Bulls team. And Rose definitely has better scoring options than AI (Boozer, Deng)

[RebusRankin]

Our society overhypes the present and forgets the past.

Oh and Kareem should have been Finals MVP in 80 not Magic. Magic got it in part due to game 6 and in part due to pressure on the media to change their votes so they could give it to a live player (See the book Kareem).

[Finkelskyhook]

Clearly, Rose hasn't had the career that Iverson had...that isn't what I meant.

I said he is a 2011 Iverson...the season he's had this year could definitely have been one of Iverson's in the midst of his career.

If he can have the longevity that Iverson had is a huge task and remains to be seen, but his performance this year was very Iverson-esque

Also when I mentioned Iverson in my initial post...I was saying he has the potential to be an Iverson like that is all.

He is not on that level yet.

The question is....Why would Rose want to be Iversonesque in any capacity?  Why would he strive to be the most overrated player in NBA history.  A coach killer.  An organization underminer?  A tanker?

Just a guess....As Rose's career is in it's twilight...I'm guessing that he won't be playing in Turkey because he can't land a job in the NBA.

Celtzfan8617 has it pegged.

Rose is not even 1/2 as good a player these legends were:
-Gary Payton
-John Stockton
-Kevin Johnson
-Jason Kidd
-Allen Iverson
-Tim Hardaway
-Penny Hardaway

To put 4 of the bottom 5 on that list and call them "legends".... I'm not a gamer....But to come to that conclusion you must be playing whatever the basketball version of Madden is.  To put Johnson, Hardaway, Hardaway, or Iverson in legend status is....Well....

[guava_wrench]

Rose is not even 1/2 as good a player these legends were:
-Gary Payton
-John Stockton
-Kevin Johnson
-Jason Kidd
-Allen Iverson
-Tim Hardaway
-Penny Hardaway

Rose is early in his career. I'm not comfortable saying either Hardaway was actually better than him. Twice as good seems serious overkill.

Rose is still ridiculously young and it isn't just stats that people are evaluating. It is his abilities.

I think it is silly for Legler to generalize about PGs since Kidd and Stockton are completely different players than Rose or AI. I don't see how they can be compared. But Rose is in a good position to become an all time great. He has the individual talent and a solid team. He also does not have the kind of personality that undermines his own chances for success (like Melo, Marbury, Coleman, etc).

On a side note, you have to love Melo criticizing his team's defensive principles when the key principle to Denver's defensive success seems to be getting rid of Melo.

[CelticG1]

Lebron James is just as much a point guard as Derrick Rose. Maybe Rose brings the ball up a couple more times a game but other than height there really isn't much distinction

[dtrader]

How did this swing to bashing AI? lol. Whatever AI ever was, I think calling him a "tanker" is about as far from the truth as you can get.  It's true, that he wasn't ALWAYS the type of player to make those around him better (although I do remember his philly teammates saying they all drew strength from his passion), but he did always give 110% when he was playing. Maybe not practicing.  Maybe not practicing. Practice? Practice! No lol....but he did give 100% to win every game.

As for the Rose comparisons to past players...the thing is, that they're "past". We know what their peak was. Rose is getting better game by game. He's not just "good off the dribble" anymore. That's 2008 Derrick Rose. 2011 Derrick Rose is a good mid range shooter, trusted floor general, and has a rapidly developing 3 pt. shot.  Who knows what 2012 Derrick Rose will be.  That's what's keeping his name in these conversations.  As his contemporaries either maintain the skill sets they have, or take steps back, he's clearly improving.  If he can add 8% to his 3pt. AND ft shooting percentages in 1 year, I'm scared to think of what he'll be able to do in 4 years when he's peaking at 26.

[ManUp]

Rose isn't really doing anything we haven't seen before I can't understand all the hype. I understand some of the hype, but being compared to Magic when you can barely break 8 assist per? He's basically Dwayne Wade if he played point to be honest not a huge difference. Maybe Legler sees something I don't maybe I'm wrong.

[OsirusCeltics]

How did this swing to bashing AI? lol. Whatever AI ever was, I think calling him a "tanker" is about as far from the truth as you can get.  It's true, that he wasn't ALWAYS the type of player to make those around him better (although I do remember his philly teammates saying they all drew strength from his passion), but he did always give 110% when he was playing. Maybe not practicing.  Maybe not practicing. Practice? Practice! No lol....but he did give 100% to win every game.

As for the Rose comparisons to past players...the thing is, that they're "past". We know what their peak was. Rose is getting better game by game. He's not just "good off the dribble" anymore. That's 2008 Derrick Rose. 2011 Derrick Rose is a good mid range shooter, trusted floor general, and has a rapidly developing 3 pt. shot.  Who knows what 2012 Derrick Rose will be.  That's what's keeping his name in these conversations.  As his contemporaries either maintain the skill sets they have, or take steps back, he's clearly improving.  If he can add 8% to his 3pt. AND ft shooting percentages in 1 year, I'm scared to think of what he'll be able to do in 4 years when he's peaking at 26.

Honestly, I think Derrick Rose reached his ceiling

Besides scoring, Rondo and Chris Paul are so much better at every other aspect of the game (passing, steals, perimeter defense, controlling tempo, floor leader). Also, the game is a two way street, and he doesn't play ANY defense. That's why to me he's not an elite player

[Finkelskyhook]

How did this swing to bashing AI? lol. Whatever AI ever was, I think calling him a "tanker" is about as far from the truth as you can get.  It's true, that he wasn't ALWAYS the type of player to make those around him better (although I do remember his philly teammates saying they all drew strength from his passion), but he did always give 110% when he was playing. Maybe not practicing.  Maybe not practicing. Practice? Practice! No lol....but he did give 100% to win every game.

In which part of his last season with Philly or last season altogether did Iverson give 100%.  The answer is none.  He tanked for a trade in Philly,  tanked his way out of Memphis, tanked his way to the bench in Detroit....And thus tanked his way out of the NBA and into...Of all places...Turkey.  Iverson left enough coaches and organizations in his wake that nobody wanted him.

As talented as he is...Why would no NBA team take a flyer on him for the dollars he had to go to Turkey to get?  Speaks volumes.

Putting Iverson and Rose in the same category is a joke.  Everything about Iverson revolves around "me".  Listen to Rose speak.  It's all about his team.


Also, the game is a two way street, and he doesn't play ANY defense.

OsirusCeltics, exactly how do you think he sees the court under Thibodeau, then?

[dtrader]

The last 3 years, Rondos Rebounding has gotten worse. His free throw shooting (which almost can't get any worse), hasn't improved. His mpg has gone up by 4, and with it has come an increase of 4 assists/game.

CP3 has fallen off in almost every category year over year, for 3 straight years.

Derrick rose has improved his 3pt shooting and his ft shooting (dramatically), while making marginal improvements in his assists, steals, blocks, and rebounds.

It's easy to just say that what he is now, is going to be his peak, but if you look at what he's done thus far, there's really no indication, that he's anywhere near his peak. I mean, he's better now, than he was to start the season...nevermind versus last year. Contrast that with the way Rondos assist totals have been eroding on a weekly basis, and you can see why so much of the PG talk has shifted to him.

[CoachBo]

Rose is on another page entirely in the PG book, and he's clearly the best in the league in every phase.

[OsirusCeltics]

How did this swing to bashing AI? lol. Whatever AI ever was, I think calling him a "tanker" is about as far from the truth as you can get.  It's true, that he wasn't ALWAYS the type of player to make those around him better (although I do remember his philly teammates saying they all drew strength from his passion), but he did always give 110% when he was playing. Maybe not practicing.  Maybe not practicing. Practice? Practice! No lol....but he did give 100% to win every game.

In which part of his last season with Philly or last season altogether did Iverson give 100%.  The answer is none.  He tanked for a trade in Philly,  tanked his way out of Memphis, tanked his way to the bench in Detroit....And thus tanked his way out of the NBA and into...Of all places...Turkey.  Iverson left enough coaches and organizations in his wake that nobody wanted him.

As talented as he is...Why would no NBA team take a flyer on him for the dollars he had to go to Turkey to get?  Speaks volumes.

Putting Iverson and Rose in the same category is a joke.  Everything about Iverson revolves around "me".  Listen to Rose speak.  It's all about his team.


Also, the game is a two way street, and he doesn't play ANY defense.

OsirusCeltics, exactly how do you think he sees the court under Thibodeau, then?

Yes, you're exactly right. The Bulls success is not due to Rose, but to Thibodeau. The Bulls were basically the exact same team last year and was not doing anything significant as far as winning games. Boozer (who is a non-factor) and Thibs are the only difference this year. And his defensive system camouflages Rose's deficiencies. Thibs is making the Bulls better, not Rose

[dtrader]

How did this swing to bashing AI? lol. Whatever AI ever was, I think calling him a "tanker" is about as far from the truth as you can get.  It's true, that he wasn't ALWAYS the type of player to make those around him better (although I do remember his philly teammates saying they all drew strength from his passion), but he did always give 110% when he was playing. Maybe not practicing.  Maybe not practicing. Practice? Practice! No lol....but he did give 100% to win every game.

In which part of his last season with Philly or last season altogether did Iverson give 100%.  The answer is none.  He tanked for a trade in Philly,  tanked his way out of Memphis, tanked his way to the bench in Detroit....And thus tanked his way out of the NBA and into...Of all places...Turkey.  Iverson left enough coaches and organizations in his wake that nobody wanted him.

As talented as he is...Why would no NBA team take a flyer on him for the dollars he had to go to Turkey to get?  Speaks volumes.

Putting Iverson and Rose in the same category is a joke.  Everything about Iverson revolves around "me".  Listen to Rose speak.  It's all about his team.


Also, the game is a two way street, and he doesn't play ANY defense.

OsirusCeltics, exactly how do you think he sees the court under Thibodeau, then?

AI didn't tank his way into a trade out of Memphis. He def. gave 110% while he was there. He clashed with the coach (and teammates), because they kept him benched while playing Mike conley (who was producing less). If anything, it was the Grizz organization, that tanked to keep their young PG of the future happy that led to his early exit.

While in Philly, he was hampered by personal issues (not surprising back in philly), and injury (the same one that led to his recent surgery while in Turkey if I remember). Again, there was never an effort issue on the court.

The fact is, all 3 teams (detroit, memphis, Philly), had young PGs that they saw as the future, and brought in AI to guide them. Unfortunately, AI's not Sam Cassell, so it didn't work. 

No NBA team brought him back because 1.- No contender would risk their locker room chemistry to bring in another alpha dog with a troubled past, and 2.- No rebuilding team would bring in a 36 year old PG that's accustomed to leadership roles, and expects his team to field the best unit possible regardless of age/experience.

As far as his defense...yes, he was often a liability.  That said, steals are a defensive statistic, and he's ranked 7th all time (and led the league 3 times).  I don't know if there's another player that led the league 3 times, but if there is, I bet he was acknowledged as a decent defender.