The Lakers size are overrated

[OsirusCeltics]

I consider the Lakers a big team.  Very big, with a bit of thuggery thrown in.  Phil my-team-doesn't-play-rough-like-boston Jackson has benefitted from Kobe and Ron's thuggery:  knee to thigh, elbow, shove, etc...  I think L.A. is the roughest team in the league.  Boston plays harder.  L.A. is bigger and rougher......

Kobe
Odom
Artest
Fischer?

All very capable and willing to make a hit

What does being a thug have to do with winning a championship? th Denver Nuggets had thugs, but that didn't help them get to the Finals. The Celtics with KG at the 4 and Shaq at the 5 are a bigger team. Odom is weak, Gasol is a Llama, Artest is fake tough and knows he can't mess with Paul. And Fisher doesn't look tough when Rondo blows past him every time. Don't get your point...

[wiley]

I consider the Lakers a big team.  Very big, with a bit of thuggery thrown in.  Phil my-team-doesn't-play-rough-like-boston Jackson has benefitted from Kobe and Ron's thuggery:  knee to thigh, elbow, shove, etc...  I think L.A. is the roughest team in the league.  Boston plays harder.  L.A. is bigger and rougher......

Kobe
Odom
Artest
Fischer?

All very capable and willing to make a hit

What does being a thug have to do with winning a championship? th Denver Nuggets had thugs, but that didn't help them get to the Finals. The Celtics with KG at the 4 and Shaq at the 5 are a bigger team. Odom is weak, Gasol is a Llama, Artest is fake tough and knows he can't mess with Paul. And Fisher doesn't look tough when Rondo blows past him every time. Don't get your point...

I didn't say being a thug has anything to do with winning a championship....read again.

my point is I'm sick and tired of the Lakers skating free on a bogus reputation of being a finesse team with no toughness or ability to get rough.  It's a false rep.  Kobe, Odom and Artest have a good long history of overly hard fouls and occasional cheap shots, despite Jackson's claims that his team doesn't get "rough" like Boston.

In terms of size, Agree a healthy Shaq makes us just as big if not bigger, but he plays few minutes, whereas over-sized Andrew Bynum is on the floor longer....kind of a wash if you ask me, or a non-issue for the rivalry.   L.A. biggest in the West.  Boston biggest in the East when healthy.

Regarding the OP, I don't think their size is overrated, unless Bynum is out.

[barefacedmonk]

For the past two years, we have been trying to stock up on bigs so that we can counter LA's length if we meet them in the finals. How can you call Odom and Gasol overrated? I can probably see why someone might call Bynum overrated..but that too is debatable.

Odom is a very good sixth man and Gasol is probably the best PF in the league right now.

If Kobe could put his ego aside and Phil had the balls to run their offense through Gasol, LA would be much tougher to beat and would win more games.

[OsirusCeltics]

I consider the Lakers a big team.  Very big, with a bit of thuggery thrown in.  Phil my-team-doesn't-play-rough-like-boston Jackson has benefitted from Kobe and Ron's thuggery:  knee to thigh, elbow, shove, etc...  I think L.A. is the roughest team in the league.  Boston plays harder.  L.A. is bigger and rougher......

Kobe
Odom
Artest
Fischer?

All very capable and willing to make a hit

What does being a thug have to do with winning a championship? th Denver Nuggets had thugs, but that didn't help them get to the Finals. The Celtics with KG at the 4 and Shaq at the 5 are a bigger team. Odom is weak, Gasol is a Llama, Artest is fake tough and knows he can't mess with Paul. And Fisher doesn't look tough when Rondo blows past him every time. Don't get your point...

I didn't say being a thug has anything to do with winning a championship....read again.

my point is I'm sick and tired of the Lakers skating free on a bogus reputation of being a finesse team with no toughness or ability to get rough.  It's a false rep.  Kobe, Odom and Artest have a good long history of overly hard fouls and occasional cheap shots, despite Jackson's claims that his team doesn't get "rough" like Boston.

In terms of size, Agree a healthy Shaq makes us just as big if not bigger, but he plays few minutes, whereas over-sized Andrew Bynum is on the floor longer....kind of a wash if you ask me, or a non-issue for the rivalry.   L.A. biggest in the West.  Boston biggest in the East when healthy.

Regarding the OP, I don't think their size is overrated, unless Bynum is out.

+1
Yeah you're right
Also what you said, I think they are overrated in terms of the number of bigs the Lakers have. With only 3, it makes their lineup fragile. If one of their big are slowed down by an injury, it ruins the whole rotation.

Celtics already have Shaq and JO out, and are winning games. But if Bynum gets injured again the Lakers struggle. When Shaq and JO come back it gives Celtics a big advantage IMO

[OsirusCeltics]

For the past two years, we have been trying to stock up on bigs so that we can counter LA's length if we meet them in the finals. How can you call Odom and Gasol overrated? I can probably see why someone might call Bynum overrated..but that too is debatable.

Odom is a very good sixth man and Gasol is probably the best PF in the league right now.

If Kobe could put his ego aside and Phil had the balls to run their offense through Gasol, LA would be much tougher to beat and would win more games.

Oh no, I don't think either Gasol or Odom is overrated. The Llama is actually underrated to me. Im saying that the fact that they have size doesn't make them the vaunted team the way the media protrays. Their bigs can be attacked and punked like many examples in the past. And I do think Celtics have more of an advantage with the number of bigs they have

[barefacedmonk]

For the past two years, we have been trying to stock up on bigs so that we can counter LA's length if we meet them in the finals. How can you call Odom and Gasol overrated? I can probably see why someone might call Bynum overrated..but that too is debatable.

Odom is a very good sixth man and Gasol is probably the best PF in the league right now.

If Kobe could put his ego aside and Phil had the balls to run their offense through Gasol, LA would be much tougher to beat and would win more games.

Oh no, I don't think either Gasol or Odom is overrated. The Llama is actually underrated to me. Im saying that the fact that they have size doesn't make them the vaunted team the way the media protrays. Their bigs can be attacked and punked like many examples in the past.

Yeah, I agree with all of that.

And I do think Celtics have more of an advantage with the number of bigs they have

I want to agree with this too...but I'm not yet confident of our new bigs...hopefully they will gel and settle down really well before the playoffs roll around.

[snively]

i think having green vs LA will make things very interesting.

assume the lakers have kobe at the 2 and artest at the 3. when we want to rest ray, we can have pierce at the 2, and green at the 3. now that puts the lakers in a tough spot. kobe will have problems overpowering either pierce or green when he posts up (he'll work very hard to make those fadeaways and jumpshots) and then when hes on defense, if hes on green, green will post him every time, or if its pierce, well you know how pierce likes to use his size.

i also think we'll have bbd and green split the minutes on odom. i also think that if one of the oneals are injured, bbd may see more time on bynum and so green will get more minutes on odom.

but green will play a big role in the lineup mentioned above with him at the 3.

This is a great point and something I have thought about as well.  kobe has been able to roam on defense against us because they always put him on Rondo.  When we put Green in as SF, kobe will have to guard PP.  And even if he doesn't go off, PP will certainly make kobe work.  Hoefully he will also punish him some with his strength.

I think it'll be Rondo who does more of the damage offensively than anyone else ... once he is freed from the shackles of Kobe Bryant.

Rondo has been devastating whenever Kobe Bryant has switched off of him ... he'll be able to tear that Lakers defense apart at will.

I wonder if the Lakers might adjust and go big with the C's, play Kobe/Barnes/Artest.

I think it'd disrupt them too much to do so, but it would be an interesting counter.

That would be an interesting and entirely unprecedented counter.  I just checked their 5-man units this season on basketball value and neither Artest nor Barnes have seen a single minute at the 2 guard position (they've only shared time in small-ball line-ups with one of them at the 4). 

Nor have the Lakers played a single minute without one of their smaller guards (Blake, Fisher, Brown, Vujacic) on the court.

I think we could dissuade them from that line-up with Rondo applying ball pressure to Kobe as the sole ball-handler.  They could try initiating the offense through Odom. 

Yeah, I think the Jeff Green-Paul Pierce wing combo would be able to dissuade them from the Kobe on Rondo defense.  I really don't think Phil Jackson would be comfortable with the available counters to maintain it against that line-up.

I think Troy Murphy pulling a big out of the paint could also be a Kobe-Rondo buster.  It's the combination of Kobe and a lurking Laker big in the paint that takes Rondo's penetration off the table for us.

[LakersFan_33]

Certainly not overrated when healthy. Health is the key, though. Shaq has surprisingly always given Bynum some trouble; A healthy KG would probably match up well with Gasol, also.

The problem is what about after that? I haven't seen it yet, but in general...I think Davis, Murphy and Krstic are going to have major problems guarding Gasol or Bynum.

[ScoobyDoo]

The "Lakers" are over rated, period, and their two titles are as much or more to do about luck with overall team health than dominance. Here's how I see it:

2008 - we were stacked and healthy and we killed the Lakers. It wasn't even closed, and no, them having Ariza and Bynum that year would not have made a difference.

2009 - KG was G-O-N-E. Again had we been healthy the odds are we would have raised another title. Instead of a team of healthy pit bulls form Boston, the Lakers got a bunch of inexperienced Chihuahuas from Orlando and raised a banner.

2010 - KG was at an admitted and clearly visible 75-80% during the finals and we lost Kendrick Perkins in game 6. The Lakers "barely" and I mean "barely" beat us in seven games, with KG not 100%, Perkins gone and them playing the series with homecourt advantage.

2011 - If we are "close" to fully healthy, we will once again crush them, easily. And it won't be pretty for them, at all.

I'm not making excuses, I'm pointing out facts. Had we not had such bad luck with injuries the last two years, the odds are that we would be shooting for our fourth straight title.

I am just hoping that come playoff time, we will be fully healthy and then have continued health throughout our title run. If we do, don't worry about, #18 is going up.

Shaq & JO will beat the crap out of Bynum, KG, Murphy and Baby will man handle Gasol. Pierce and Green are well matched against Artest and Odom, Ray and DWest are reasonable against Kobe and Brown and Rondo and Arroyo should run circles around Fisher and Blake.

Their bench: Odom, Barnes, Brown and Blake
Our Bench: Nenad, JO, Baby, Murphy, Green, DWest & Arroyo

I think we're good...     

[FromDowntown]

Yes you have objectively convinced me that the Celtics have a counter for every player on the Lakers' roster and will essentially have a cake walk should they meet the Lakers on the way to banner 18.

[aporel#18]

Certainly not overrated when healthy. Health is the key, though. Shaq has surprisingly always given Bynum some trouble; A healthy KG would probably match up well with Gasol, also.

The problem is what about after that? I haven't seen it yet, but in general...I think Davis, Murphy and Krstic are going to have major problems guarding Gasol or Bynum.

Shaq+KG can be the best combination against Bynum+Gasol, but I think JO will show up if they meet in the Finals, and he can stay with both Gasol and Bynum. You can't shut down Gasol with defense, it's usually Kobe who shuts down his teammates, but if  you don't double team Gasol and have someone taller than BBD to contest Bynum's shots, you're more than ok on Defense.

BBD can't defend either guy one-on-one, and I don't like it at all when Odom drives by him to get a basket. But last year he was coming off a concussion against the Magic. If 100% healthy, Davis can outhustle anybody, and that's what Leon Powe did back in 2008.

Krstic can stay with Bynum and even with Gasol, he's no defensive stud, but he'll do ok. Murphy... when he's in game shape we'll see, I'm not very confident but I hope I'm wrong.

I like what I've read about Green on this thread, and I agree that he can be used against Odom. He has the tools to shut his face-up game down, and it will be interesting.

As LakeFan says, the key is health, but if both teams are healthy, I like the Celtics chances a lot.

[Steve Weinman]

Kristic to me is a better rebounder [than Perk].

While it's...nice, I guess, to make such confident proclamations, Krstic, to rebound rate, an objective measurement of a player's ability on the boards, is a significantly inferior rebounder.

-sw

[Celtics4ever]

Krstic isn't a solid rebounder but neither was Perk folks.  Krstic is below average and Perk was average.  Perk didn't average double doubles that much in boards or points. But to make out like he was the second coming of Moses Malone is disingenuous at best.

One thing Nenad brings to the table over Perk is that now Gasol or Bynum will have to play more D and exert effort on both ends of the court.   They will also have to play more D on Krstic and won't be able to sag off to help as much.   You sag off Perk it was no biggie outside of two feet he can't make two with a pencil.  Krstic can hit jumpers and make you pay for sagging off.

Of course, I think Shaq if healthy can make Bynum look like chopped liver.  I hope Shaq makes these comments not neccessary.

[OsirusCeltics]

The "Lakers" are over rated, period, and their two titles are as much or more to do about luck with overall team health than dominance. Here's how I see it:

2008 - we were stacked and healthy and we killed the Lakers. It wasn't even closed, and no, them having Ariza and Bynum that year would not have made a difference.

2009 - KG was G-O-N-E. Again had we been healthy the odds are we would have raised another title. Instead of a team of healthy pit bulls form Boston, the Lakers got a bunch of inexperienced Chihuahuas from Orlando and raised a banner.

2010 - KG was at an admitted and clearly visible 75-80% during the finals and we lost Kendrick Perkins in game 6. The Lakers "barely" and I mean "barely" beat us in seven games, with KG not 100%, Perkins gone and them playing the series with homecourt advantage.

2011 - If we are "close" to fully healthy, we will once again crush them, easily. And it won't be pretty for them, at all.

I'm not making excuses, I'm pointing out facts. Had we not had such bad luck with injuries the last two years, the odds are that we would be shooting for our fourth straight title.

I am just hoping that come playoff time, we will be fully healthy and then have continued health throughout our title run. If we do, don't worry about, #18 is going up.

Shaq & JO will beat the crap out of Bynum, KG, Murphy and Baby will man handle Gasol. Pierce and Green are well matched against Artest and Odom, Ray and DWest are reasonable against Kobe and Brown and Rondo and Arroyo should run circles around Fisher and Blake.

Their bench: Odom, Barnes, Brown and Blake
Our Bench: Nenad, JO, Baby, Murphy, Green, DWest & Arroyo

I think we're good...      

+1
Thank you. Ultimate TP. I have been saying this for years. Agree with everything you said. The Lakers are not as good as everyone thinks.

I get so frustrated to see teams get so scared of their "size". That Houston team they faced in the '09 playoffs with Yao and Chuck Hayes at the 5 and 4 punked them (with Bynum and Gasol there). That Rockets lineup showed the Laker bigs are as soft as tissue paper. And they were lucky Yao went down with an injury. If you take it and attack the Laker defense, you win the game easy

[Roy H.]

Kristic to me is a better rebounder [than Perk].

While it's...nice, I guess, to make such confident proclamations, Krstic, to rebound rate, an objective measurement of a player's ability on the boards, is a significantly inferior rebounder.

-sw

Steve, if you were a "real" fan, you'd know that there's no room for things like stats, historical trends, or reality-based viewpoints in this dojo.  Krstic is not only a top-2 offensive center in the league, but he's above-average on defense and is a beast on the boards, too. 

Danny Ainge traded a crappy, injured one-dimensional center for a top-10 small forward and a top-5 center.  If you can't get on board with this view of the trade, I'm not sure if you're qualified to post on CelticsBlog any longer.