Alternative ideas for a shady lottery

[Moranis]

Does this have anything to do with the discussion? I'm not sure whether my response should be to have you imagine that you couldn't sub between plays to make the analogy more basketball-like, or to challenge you to name a single team that won 6 titles with below average players in 8-9 of their starting positions.

Yes it does, because you made the comparison that teams can't make do in Football with 40% role players like the Bulls did.

I don't get what your making up a fake no sub rule will get us. There are no teams in football that have won 6 titles with the same core of players. Dynastys have been shorter in the NFL due to shorter careers and how talent needs to be more dispersed on the roster.

Off hand the Saints won a title with some pretty average to bad starters, as did the Colts, as did the Packers this year. In my original comment I was considering bench players as well, because Kerr never started for the Bulls I didn't think we were only talking about starting players.

  Sigh. I guess I must have made up the fake no sub rule because you decided that the way to get around having "specialists" as EVERY DOWN players was to sub them in and out as the situation dictates. Oops on the Kerr thing, should have gone with another of their sub-par point guards, but this is still a complete sidetrack that doesn't have anything to do with the discussion.

Scott Williams didn't start for the Bulls either.  First three teams was essentially Paxon, Jordan, Pippen, Grant, and Cartwright.  The second three teams were essentially Harper, Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, and Longley. 

[Celtics4ever]

Just do it all in the public eye.   That is all they need to do to fix it.  It may stop a team getting a new arena from winning but it's long overdue.

[BballTim]

Does this have anything to do with the discussion? I'm not sure whether my response should be to have you imagine that you couldn't sub between plays to make the analogy more basketball-like, or to challenge you to name a single team that won 6 titles with below average players in 8-9 of their starting positions.

Yes it does, because you made the comparison that teams can't make do in Football with 40% role players like the Bulls did.

I don't get what your making up a fake no sub rule will get us. There are no teams in football that have won 6 titles with the same core of players. Dynastys have been shorter in the NFL due to shorter careers and how talent needs to be more dispersed on the roster.

Off hand the Saints won a title with some pretty average to bad starters, as did the Colts, as did the Packers this year. In my original comment I was considering bench players as well, because Kerr never started for the Bulls I didn't think we were only talking about starting players.

  Sigh. I guess I must have made up the fake no sub rule because you decided that the way to get around having "specialists" as EVERY DOWN players was to sub them in and out as the situation dictates. Oops on the Kerr thing, should have gone with another of their sub-par point guards, but this is still a complete sidetrack that doesn't have anything to do with the discussion.

Scott Williams didn't start for the Bulls either.  First three teams was essentially Paxon, Jordan, Pippen, Grant, and Cartwright.  The second three teams were essentially Harper, Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, and Longley. 

  Haha. Bill Cartwright? Bill Wennington? I'd have to go back and check to see who the starters were. I guess that somewhat proves my point, that those players were so forgettable.

[angryguy77]

This will settle any dispute.

[Moranis]

Does this have anything to do with the discussion? I'm not sure whether my response should be to have you imagine that you couldn't sub between plays to make the analogy more basketball-like, or to challenge you to name a single team that won 6 titles with below average players in 8-9 of their starting positions.

Yes it does, because you made the comparison that teams can't make do in Football with 40% role players like the Bulls did.

I don't get what your making up a fake no sub rule will get us. There are no teams in football that have won 6 titles with the same core of players. Dynastys have been shorter in the NFL due to shorter careers and how talent needs to be more dispersed on the roster.

Off hand the Saints won a title with some pretty average to bad starters, as did the Colts, as did the Packers this year. In my original comment I was considering bench players as well, because Kerr never started for the Bulls I didn't think we were only talking about starting players.

  Sigh. I guess I must have made up the fake no sub rule because you decided that the way to get around having "specialists" as EVERY DOWN players was to sub them in and out as the situation dictates. Oops on the Kerr thing, should have gone with another of their sub-par point guards, but this is still a complete sidetrack that doesn't have anything to do with the discussion.

Scott Williams didn't start for the Bulls either.  First three teams was essentially Paxon, Jordan, Pippen, Grant, and Cartwright.  The second three teams were essentially Harper, Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, and Longley.  

  Haha. Bill Cartwright? Bill Wennington? I'd have to go back and check to see who the starters were. I guess that somewhat proves my point, that those players were so forgettable.

Ron Harper was an excellent PG.  The year before he joined the Bulls he was a 20 point scorer on 38 minutes a game for the Clippers.  His minutes and numbers took a big hit on the Bulls and he was getting older, but he was an excellent player and much more then a throw away.  Longley however is a different matter, of course those three teams often closed games with both Longley and Wennington on the bench and went with a small lineup of Harper (Kerr if they needed the shooting), Jordan, Pippen, Kukoc, and Rodman.

[BballTim]

Does this have anything to do with the discussion? I'm not sure whether my response should be to have you imagine that you couldn't sub between plays to make the analogy more basketball-like, or to challenge you to name a single team that won 6 titles with below average players in 8-9 of their starting positions.

Yes it does, because you made the comparison that teams can't make do in Football with 40% role players like the Bulls did.

I don't get what your making up a fake no sub rule will get us. There are no teams in football that have won 6 titles with the same core of players. Dynastys have been shorter in the NFL due to shorter careers and how talent needs to be more dispersed on the roster.

Off hand the Saints won a title with some pretty average to bad starters, as did the Colts, as did the Packers this year. In my original comment I was considering bench players as well, because Kerr never started for the Bulls I didn't think we were only talking about starting players.

  Sigh. I guess I must have made up the fake no sub rule because you decided that the way to get around having "specialists" as EVERY DOWN players was to sub them in and out as the situation dictates. Oops on the Kerr thing, should have gone with another of their sub-par point guards, but this is still a complete sidetrack that doesn't have anything to do with the discussion.

Scott Williams didn't start for the Bulls either.  First three teams was essentially Paxon, Jordan, Pippen, Grant, and Cartwright.  The second three teams were essentially Harper, Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, and Longley.  

  Haha. Bill Cartwright? Bill Wennington? I'd have to go back and check to see who the starters were. I guess that somewhat proves my point, that those players were so forgettable.

Ron Harper was an excellent PG.  The year before he joined the Bulls he was a 20 point scorer on 38 minutes a game for the Clippers.  His minutes and numbers took a big hit on the Bulls and he was getting older, but he was an excellent player and much more then a throw away.  Longley however is a different matter, of course those three teams often closed games with both Longley and Wennington on the bench and went with a small lineup of Harper (Kerr if they needed the shooting), Jordan, Pippen, Kukoc, and Rodman.

  Ron Harper was never a pg before he came to the Bulls when he was, what, 30 or so? He was a decent shooting guard who lost a lot of his explosiveness after a knee injury.

[Moranis]

Harper still averaged 18.2, 18.0, and 20.1 his first three full seasons after his knee injury.  His lowest totals in those seasons for assists was 4.5, rebounds 5.3, and steals 1.9.  Those were the three preceding seasons to his three titles with the Bulls.  And the season just before the Bulls title teams was perhaps his best ever with 20.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.9 spg.  To act like he was a throw away player is utterly ridiculous. 

[byennie]

Rollover balls. Same format, but if none of your ping pong balls are drawn, they roll over to next year. Simple change, more fair over time, and more teams in the lottery (since they may have leftover balls from past years). Every time you "win" the lottery you go back to 0 balls. Got screwed? Well that means more chances next year. As a bonus, if you already have some rollover balls, you might be less inclined to tank your season, because it has a smaller impact on your total odds.

More advanced version, you lose balls based on where you pick. So if you are the worst team in the league, you get 13 balls. Get the #1 pick and you lose all of your balls for next year. #2 pick, you lose 12 balls, #3 pick you lose 11 balls, and so on. Playoff teams don't get any balls, but they could have some leftover from the last time they were in the lottery.

[byennie]

And just for kicks, let teams trade their rollover balls!

[Redz]

Expanding on my Shirley Jackson Lottery idea, how about the worst team gets contracted.  Do that for a few years and get the league back to a competitive level!

[BballTim]

Harper still averaged 18.2, 18.0, and 20.1 his first three full seasons after his knee injury.  His lowest totals in those seasons for assists was 4.5, rebounds 5.3, and steals 1.9.  Those were the three preceding seasons to his three titles with the Bulls.  And the season just before the Bulls title teams was perhaps his best ever with 20.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.9 spg.  To act like he was a throw away player is utterly ridiculous. 

  He was a UFA who signed with the Bulls for about half what he was getting from the crappy Clippers team that let him go. The numbers he put up in that "great" season were roughly what he totaled in his first three years with the Bulls. Not to mention that your "excellent pg"'s entire point guard career consisted of standing around as a spot up shooter while Jordan ran the offense.

[bdm860]

Rollover balls. Same format, but if none of your ping pong balls are drawn, they roll over to next year. Simple change, more fair over time, and more teams in the lottery (since they may have leftover balls from past years). Every time you "win" the lottery you go back to 0 balls. Got screwed? Well that means more chances next year. As a bonus, if you already have some rollover balls, you might be less inclined to tank your season, because it has a smaller impact on your total odds.

More advanced version, you lose balls based on where you pick. So if you are the worst team in the league, you get 13 balls. Get the #1 pick and you lose all of your balls for next year. #2 pick, you lose 12 balls, #3 pick you lose 11 balls, and so on. Playoff teams don't get any balls, but they could have some leftover from the last time they were in the lottery.

I actually like this idea.  Just think about how cool it would be if it was implemented a few years ago.

2006 Celtics have 53 lottery chances, end up with nothing.

2007 Celtics have 199 lottery chances, end up with nothing. 

Now if we added the 53 from 2006, we now have 252 total chances in 2007.  So maybe now we end up with Oden or Durant, or better yet, we still miss out on the lottery, 2008 championship roster is still assembled, and then due to our rollover chances, we land a top pick in 2008.  But since we don't need Rose and don't want Beasley, we either draft Mayo or trade for Love.  Or if we don't win the lottery in 2008 our odds are rolled over again to 2009.  That would be one way to get Blake Griffin in green.  Pretty cool to think about.