Author Topic: Was it worth Lebron further hurting his rep to join Miami?  (Read 15458 times)

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Re: Was it worth Lebron further hurting his rep to join Miami?
« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2011, 03:03:41 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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maybe it's time to admit that Lebron James is a very talented player who simply doesn't have that special ability that champions like Russell, Bird, Cowens, Magic, Jordan and even Garnett have.

James is more interested in being an amazing athlete than winning titles - not to say he wouldn't like to win a championship - but it is not what, deep down, drives him. he falls more in the category of Chamberlain, Erving, David Thompson and Malone.

It could be, but Lebron has carried his team a lot farther than KG ever did at the same age.  I think it's tough to slap one guy with a winner label, and call the other a loser, when the "winner" didn't win until he was 32 years old.  Lebron is 26.

I loathe Lebron's self-promotion, and I hate the may the media anointed the Heat this year.  However, I do think that the guy is almost too good to not win.  As the league loses some of its powerhouse teams, I think the Heat are going to step into that vacuum.
Yeah. Including KG pretty much kills the argument.

It seems to me that people like to attribute mystical qualities to players who have won, though they would not be able to tell who had those qualities by watching all their games blind to how many rings they have.

It seems like post hoc forcing of a convenient narrative.

Re: Was it worth Lebron further hurting his rep to join Miami?
« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2011, 03:04:15 PM »

Offline barefacedmonk

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This current Miami team is not out of the contention yet...it's only March. We wrote them off after their horrendous start but they came back well....I'm hesitant to take a them lightly in the playoffs irrespective of their regular season record. Playoffs are a different beast.

It seems like LeBron has been in the league forever...but he only 26...he is going to win atleast 2-3 rings. Too soon and premature to write his basketball obituary already.
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Re: Was it worth Lebron further hurting his rep to join Miami?
« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2011, 03:24:47 PM »

Offline GreenEnvy

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I never understood the fascination with guaranteeing LeBron rings. I'm sure people guaranteed Stockton/Malone rings too.

He has the physical talent to win, as he is clearly on the short list of best players in the world. But professional sports is not all about your physical abilities.

But to answer the OP, of course he hurt his reputation. He had multiple opportunities to win in Cleveland. He made the Finals in 2007, only to put forth one of the worst performances by a superstar ever. In 2009 and 2010, he led his team (with HCA throughout) to a premature exit.

So his career-defining move is to enter Free Agency and team up with the two next best free agents?
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Re: Was it worth Lebron further hurting his rep to join Miami?
« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2011, 03:45:25 PM »

Offline soap07

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Quote
He made the Finals in 2007, only to put forth one of the worst performances by a superstar ever.

Are you serious? You think LeBron had the roster to make any sort of legitimate Finals run against the Spurs in 2007?

Re: Was it worth Lebron further hurting his rep to join Miami?
« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2011, 07:46:47 PM »

Offline droponov

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I don't think you can say that the Cavs kept downgrading their roster when Sasha Pavlovic was starting for that Finals team.

Yeah, I think I can. I just did.

I disagree.

I think Cleveland just kept downgrading his supporting cast. He was still very close to eliminating the Celtics in the following year though. They were the 2nd best team in those playoffs and the one which actually had a good shot of knocking down the eventual champions.  

completely disagree.

They brought in better and better players, and at incredible expense (bad contracts, but still good-but-not-great players).  Unfortunately, Lebron made them all worse by running the no-motion offense.

I agree about the expense.

They brought in expensive players with big names, with reputations. They brought in some big time scorers, at least guys who had scored a lot in the past. Names don't win games though.

That Cleveland team last season had 2 elite defenders (LeBron and Varejao) plus a good one (West, who had all those health problems and couldn't be relied on). Then a couple of average ones and the rest of the roster - the largest part of the rotation - was filled with awful defenders, gigantic defensive liabilities (Shaq, Jamison, Mo were probably the worst defenders at their positions amongst starters in the entire league, but then they had Hickson, a washed up Parker, the uber slow Ilgauskas). Plus, playing Varejao + Shaq together was impossible because it'd eat to much spacing and hurt LeBron's game immensely. Shaq was always a bad fit but the fact that he was limiting Varejao's playing time - especially in the playoffs - made it horrible. The only quality starter in that team was Varejao. Jamison has always been an inefficient volume scorer except in his year in Dallas when he was coming off the bench. He's a good 6th/7th man, but his defense makes it a negative to start him. Ditto for Mo Williams - he could start because LeBron runs the offense, but he's still a scoring combo off the bench in most good teams. Hickson was a dumb young player who had no idea on how to play defense and with a very poor work rate. Parker and Moon would do great 4th wings. West was not dependable with all those health issues. That was an awful supporting cast. A team with no identity. A team with inefficient scorers and bad defenders as options 2 and 3, a second shot-creator limited to 25 mpg, an All-NBA defender limited to the other 25 mpg and some washed-up journeymen. A team of guys put together without much thought A team extremely limited in their defensive potential because there were so many awful defenders and limited in their offensive potential because the main options out of LeBron were inefficient scorers, the efficient scorers were one-dimensional and couldn't create and there wasn't a 2nd quality playmaker.

The 07 team had an identity. A team of above average defenders. More importantly, a team of long and quick above average defenders with lots of guys able to guard multiple positions which allowed them to switch all the time. That perimeter defense of Hughes/Pavlovic/LeBron was a nightmare to score on in the halfcourt. Very big. A team of hard-workers where everybody knew their role. Defenders, shooters, Z protecting the rim, Hughes as the secondary ball-handler, Varejao with the energy of the bench, Gibson with the instant offense, those veterans like Snow, Damon Jones and Marshall filling small roles. A good supporting cast? No, a poor one, lacking in talent, lacking in outside shooting, lacking in a 2nd and maybe a 3rd scoring options. But much better than last year's one.

Reputations and inefficient scoring don't win championships, especially when paired with bad defense. The '07 Cavs were better than last years' edition - even though LeBron was better in 2010 than in 2007.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2011, 08:04:41 PM by droponov »

Re: Was it worth Lebron further hurting his rep to join Miami?
« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2011, 07:52:42 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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I don't think you can say that the Cavs kept downgrading their roster when Sasha Pavlovic was starting for that Finals team.

Yeah, I think I can. I just did.

I think he's saying that you can't say it and be correct.

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Re: Was it worth Lebron further hurting his rep to join Miami?
« Reply #36 on: March 05, 2011, 08:08:20 PM »

Offline droponov

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I don't think you can say that the Cavs kept downgrading their roster when Sasha Pavlovic was starting for that Finals team.

Yeah, I think I can. I just did.

I think he's saying that you can't say it and be correct.

As I've said, I did that.

Re: Was it worth Lebron further hurting his rep to join Miami?
« Reply #37 on: March 05, 2011, 08:16:42 PM »

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I don't think you can say that the Cavs kept downgrading their roster when Sasha Pavlovic was starting for that Finals team.

Yeah, I think I can. I just did.

I think he's saying that you can't say it and be correct.

As I've said, I did that.

You are claiming that a 50 win team was better than a 66 and 61 win team (in 09 and 10, respectively)?

The post-07 Cavs teams had both higher offensive AND defensive ratings (per basketball-reference) every single year than they did in 07.

But, you are perfectly correct in stating that you can make the claim, but I'm with IP.

Re: Was it worth Lebron further hurting his rep to join Miami?
« Reply #38 on: March 05, 2011, 08:23:45 PM »

Offline droponov

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Isn't it already clear I'm claiming exactly that? It's like the 3rd or 4th time I have to repeat it. I can't keep writing posts saying the same thing over and over. Read the ones I've already written please.

Yeah, I knew about their regular season records.

Re: Was it worth Lebron further hurting his rep to join Miami?
« Reply #39 on: March 05, 2011, 08:33:45 PM »

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Isn't it already clear I'm claiming exactly that? It's like the 3rd or 4th time I have to repeat it. I can't keep writing posts saying the same thing over and over. Read the ones I've already written please.

Yeah, I knew about their regular season records.

Hey, no offense.  It was just a rather unexpected position to take, and appears to be a rather difficult one to defend.

Re: Was it worth Lebron further hurting his rep to join Miami?
« Reply #40 on: March 05, 2011, 09:05:47 PM »

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We're not even a full year into this "experiment".  Way too early to be pouring dirt on Lebron considering he probably has a good decade ahead of him. 

What I see is a team that is still trying to figure it out, that has very thin depth, and a coach who is probably out of league trying to manage it all. 

These things take time to develop.  Heck, look at the Lakers after they got Shaq in free agency.  It took a few years for that team to gel, fit itself, and hit their stride.  They ended up with a three-peat.  That could very well happen here but it'll take time.

These guys (Wade, Lebron, & Bosh) need to figure out how to play with each other.  They still haven't done that yet.  With some added team depth and team chemistry, Lebron certainly has what it takes to get himself an NBA title(s).


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Re: Was it worth Lebron further hurting his rep to join Miami?
« Reply #41 on: March 05, 2011, 09:12:44 PM »

Offline droponov

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Isn't it already clear I'm claiming exactly that? It's like the 3rd or 4th time I have to repeat it. I can't keep writing posts saying the same thing over and over. Read the ones I've already written please.

Yeah, I knew about their regular season records.

Hey, no offense.  It was just a rather unexpected position to take, and appears to be a rather difficult one to defend.

Nope. I just defended it and it was easy.

Re: Was it worth Lebron further hurting his rep to join Miami?
« Reply #42 on: March 05, 2011, 09:12:46 PM »

Offline outcry

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maybe it's time to admit that Lebron James is a very talented player who simply doesn't have that special ability that champions like Russell, Bird, Cowens, Magic, Jordan and even Garnett have.

James is more interested in being an amazing athlete than winning titles - not to say he wouldn't like to win a championship - but it is not what, deep down, drives him. he falls more in the category of Chamberlain, Erving, David Thompson and Malone.

It could be, but Lebron has carried his team a lot farther than KG ever did at the same age.  I think it's tough to slap one guy with a winner label, and call the other a loser, when the "winner" didn't win until he was 32 years old.  Lebron is 26.

I loathe Lebron's self-promotion, and I hate the may the media anointed the Heat this year.  However, I do think that the guy is almost too good to not win.  As the league loses some of its powerhouse teams, I think the Heat are going to step into that vacuum.

This league will always have powerhouse teams or teams that will be competitive enough to give the Heat issues. With great players that retire, just as many will emerge. The fact that stars today want to play with other stars definitely does not help the Heat's cause.
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Re: Was it worth Lebron further hurting his rep to join Miami?
« Reply #43 on: March 05, 2011, 09:20:58 PM »

Offline BballTim

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LeBron has been in the NBA Finals in the past and has hasd multiple instances of tremendous success, both from an individual and team perspective, in the playoffs.

To me I think after LeBron made it to the Finals he lost his fire. 

I'm not going to say that he had success to early because to me you can never have success to early and you should always want to win, but I think after that he thought it was going to be easier then it is.

I disagree.

I think Cleveland just kept downgrading his supporting cast. He was still very close to eliminating the Celtics in the following year though. They were the 2nd best team in those playoffs and the one which actually had a good shot of knocking down the eventual champions.  

  I think Cleveland did so well against the Celts because they played them while the team was still getting their playoff legs. If they'd have played the Hawks in the second round it would never have gone farther than 5 games if it went that far. If we'd played the Pistons and then the Cavs we'd have struggled more with the Pistons and had an easier time dispatching the Cavs. We made both the Hawks and the Cavs look better than they were.

Re: Was it worth Lebron further hurting his rep to join Miami?
« Reply #44 on: March 05, 2011, 09:22:23 PM »

Offline jdz101

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maybe it's time to admit that Lebron James is a very talented player who simply doesn't have that special ability that champions like Russell, Bird, Cowens, Magic, Jordan and even Garnett have.

James is more interested in being an amazing athlete than winning titles - not to say he wouldn't like to win a championship - but it is not what, deep down, drives him. he falls more in the category of Chamberlain, Erving, David Thompson and Malone.

It could be, but Lebron has carried his team a lot farther than KG ever did at the same age.  I think it's tough to slap one guy with a winner label, and call the other a loser, when the "winner" didn't win until he was 32 years old.  Lebron is 26.

I loathe Lebron's self-promotion, and I hate the may the media anointed the Heat this year.  However, I do think that the guy is almost too good to not win.  As the league loses some of its powerhouse teams, I think the Heat are going to step into that vacuum.
Yeah. Including KG pretty much kills the argument.

It seems to me that people like to attribute mystical qualities to players who have won, though they would not be able to tell who had those qualities by watching all their games blind to how many rings they have.

It seems like post hoc forcing of a convenient narrative.

Garnett does have the leadership qualities on the defensive end to be consistently excellent and is also a reliable scorer on the offensive end. A few of those types of player are needed in a team to win a championship. I wouldn't say they're mystical qualities, but I could tell without knowing about rings that Garnett would be a quality playoffs player.

Compared physically with someone like Chris Bosh and theres a massive amount of difference there.


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