TA move paying off

[Bankshot]

Wait. You mean the guy everyone called a player who could have good stats on a lousy team is actually putting up good stats on a lousy team? I am shocked!

I don't buy that argument.  Pierce, KG and Ray all put up big numbers on bad teams.  Doesn't mean they couldn't do it on good teams.

[soap07]

Wait. You mean the guy everyone called a player who could have good stats on a lousy team is actually putting up good stats on a lousy team? I am shocked!

I don't buy that argument.  Pierce, KG and Ray all put up big numbers on bad teams.  Doesn't mean they couldn't do it on good teams.

And they also did it on good teams. Tony never has and had multiple opportunities to do so.

[Fan from VT]

Wait. You mean the guy everyone called a player who could have good stats on a lousy team is actually putting up good stats on a lousy team? I am shocked!

And I guess your definition of Lousy Team is just whatever suits your argument at the time? Memphis is 34-28, including 12-5 since the Mayo injury.

[CelticG1]

Wait. You mean the guy everyone called a player who could have good stats on a lousy team is actually putting up good stats on a lousy team? I am shocked!

And I guess your definition of Lousy Team is just whatever suits your argument at the time? Memphis is 34-28, including 12-5 since the Mayo injury.

That really puts it in perspective, thats even more impressive

[SalmonAndMashedPotatoes]

It's easy to compare Per 36 numbers without mentioning that there is not a single team that would give Allen close to the minutes that Green gets.

2 things:

1. The Grizzlies went on a hot streak right about the time Tony Allen started getting heaving minutes because of Mayo's suspension and Gay's injury.  The more he's played, the better Memphis has performed.
2. Players play better with more minutes.  The fact that TA's #s per 36 minutes are comparable to Green's, yet TA does it with half the playing time that Green does means that TA is doing in short minutes what Green does in big minutes.  If TA was getting 35 minutes a night, he'd be putting up even bigger per 36 #s.

Looks like TA was smart to go to Memphis. He has been thriving since punching Mayo.

And Memphis has been thriving since TA started getting more minutes.

Meanwhile, the Cs just traded their 26 year old starting center for a guy in Jeff Green whose per 36 minute numbers are eerily similar to TA's, only Jeff Green doesn't provide shutdown defense at 3 positions, and it'll take a lot more than 3.3 million per year to retain him.

Miscalculating TA and allowing him to go to Memphis is the biggest blunder in Danny's tenure, and the Perk trade was a direct result of that blunder.

How is his playing well in Memphis an indictment of Danny? TA wanted to not play behind 2 HOFers and to have a fresh start. He would still be relegated to a bench player here while he is starting and contributing there.

Was Danny supposed to overpay TA to convince him to sacrifice opportunity to regain his career?

Danny miscalculated and allowed TA to get away without any compensation.  Good GMs like Danny rarely let assets walk away for nothing, and doing so last summer created the hole at backup shooting guard and small forward that ended up necessitating the trade of Perk to help shore up the bench.

It wasn't a matter of overpaying TA--it was a matter of respecting him throughout the free agency process, and from what Tony's agent said during the summer Danny hadn't contacted them for weeks after the season ended, assuming all the while that Tony would simply resign and there was no need to communicate and keep Tony in the loop.  Meanwhile, Chris Wallace wisely stepped up to the plate, wooed TA and made him feel wanted, and got him to leave the Celtics for a contract that was eminently reasonable.  TA's feelings of being overshadowed weren't so much about on-the-court concerns, but rather the fact that Danny didn't make him feel wanted during free agency. 

And while Danny was ignoring Tony Allen, he was wooing JO, the 2nd biggest blunder of his tenure. 

Jeff Green isn't in the same ballpark as Tony  , if you took tony's athletic ability, marquis daniels calm brain (not the stoned version) and a 6'9" frame you have jeff green
green has defended c, pf and sf and depending on the matchups anywhere from fair to very good
tony has defended pg, sg and sf with the same range, he is a good defender but has never been lock down against an upper tier player at any of those posistions
tony is a bench player, i'd take dwest over him, better shooter, smaller but less turnovers

Please.  TA regularly shuts down point guards, two guards and small forwards.  He has All-NBA defensive ability, and if you watched one Memphis game you'd see it in action on a nightly basis.

Jeff Green, from all reports, while being very versatile, is too slight to bang with post players at power forward, and his lateral quickness is too deficient to stick with elite wings on the perimeter.  He's a jack of all trades, but he's not great at one thing.  TA is great at perimeter defense.

Jeff Green takes care of the ball better, and shoots better from distance, but otherwise his production per 36 minutes is right on par with what TA has done throughout his career, and that includes all the injuries TA's suffered as well as all the years he was underutilized and buried on the Cs bench.  Meanwhile, Jeff Green's been starting and playing heavy minutes since his rookie season (the absolute best way for a player to develop his skills and maximize his production) and yet if you look at their #s side-by-side both guys put up similar production. 

[Fafnir]

2. Players play better with more minutes.  The fact that TA's #s per 36 minutes are comparable to Green's, yet TA does it with half the playing time that Green does means that TA is doing in short minutes what Green does in big minutes.  If TA was getting 35 minutes a night, he'd be putting up even bigger per 36 #s.

This isn't true, players are actually relatively consistent on a per minute basis (on the aggregate hot and cold months happen). Furthermore the relationship actually has a negative correlation, for most players their numbers very slightly decline with more minutes.

Green has room to grow however, Tony is who he is at this point. I'll also add that Tony's hot play has gone on for a pretty small sample size. Basically he's producing the same as Gren on average, but that's with a lot less production early on and more production lately.

Given his history I don't think he deserves the benefit of the doubt whether or not he can maintain that. Tony has always been extremely up and down. Do you honestly expect him to maintain a TS% of .627 like he did the month of January (while halving his career TO average)

[wiley]

2. Players play better with more minutes.  The fact that TA's #s per 36 minutes are comparable to Green's, yet TA does it with half the playing time that Green does means that TA is doing in short minutes what Green does in big minutes.  If TA was getting 35 minutes a night, he'd be putting up even bigger per 36 #s.

This isn't true, players are actually relatively consistent on a per minute basis (on the aggregate hot and cold months happen). Furthermore the relationship actually has a negative correlation, for most players their numbers very slightly decline with more minutes.

Green has room to grow however, Tony is who he is at this point. I'll also add that Tony's hot play has gone on for a pretty small sample size. Basically he's producing the same as Gren on average, but that's with a lot less production early on and more production lately.

Given his history I don't think he deserves the benefit of the doubt whether or not he can maintain that. Tony has always been extremely up and down. Do you honestly expect him to maintain a TS% of .627 like he did the month of January (while halving his career TO average)

On the other hand the defense, steals and effort level are consistent.  I always thought it was worth plahing him big minutes to take advantage of those things, and living with the other stuff.  To me it's not about whether he's on a bad or good team, it's whether he gets big minutes, enough where he gets in a rhythm.  Once he's in rhythm he makes fewer mistakes overall.  He wasn't going to get that here, so in that sense we didn't lose out all that much since we weren't going to give him the minutes.  It's a win for Tony and for Memphis, but not really a loss for the Celtics, though we did have to scramble a bit for Paul's new backup...a good deal in the end, however, imo....

to sum up:  his defense and hustle affect games on a consistent basis.

[Megatron]

Looks like TA was smart to go to Memphis. He has been thriving since punching Mayo.

And Memphis has been thriving since TA started getting more minutes.

Meanwhile, the Cs just traded their 26 year old starting center for a guy in Jeff Green whose per 36 minute numbers are eerily similar to TA's, only Jeff Green doesn't provide shutdown defense at 3 positions, and it'll take a lot more than 3.3 million per year to retain him.

Miscalculating TA and allowing him to go to Memphis is the biggest blunder in Danny's tenure, and the Perk trade was a direct result of that blunder.

Jeff Green isn't in the same ballpark as Tony   , if you took tony's athletic ability, marquis daniels calm brain (not the stoned version) and a 6'9" frame you have jeff green
green has defended c, pf and sf and depending on the matchups anywhere from fair to very good
tony has defended pg, sg and sf with the same range, he is a good defender but has never been lock down against an upper tier player at any of those posistions
tony is a bench player, i'd take dwest over him, better shooter, smaller but less turnovers

Jeff Green is an all-star talent type player, he is what charles barkley calls a "stud" he uses the same term for players like Rondo, Roy, Westbrook. Green is the 5th best player on this team in terms of talent, behind the Big 4. He is a great player he just hasnt been used in the correct way, hes coming off the bench for this team so we arent going to see what hes capable of unless he explodes for one game.

He is leagues and bounds better then Tony Allen.

If Charles Barkley calls you a "stud" you know your one hell of a player.

[wdleehi]

TA is proving once again he is a better player as a starter vs. off the bench.


As a starter this year, his shooting % is .532.  


Off the bench this year, .464.



His FT shooting is even better as as starter.


His turnover per minute is down.




In Boston, he showed the same thing.  A better player as a starter vs. off the bench.


He wasn't going to be the starter in Boston.  Therefor, Boston would have gotten the inferior bench TA, not the starting TA that is on display right now.  

[Megatron]

TA is proving once again he is a better player as a starter vs. off the bench.


As a starter this year, his shooting % is .532.  


Off the bench this year, .464.



His FT shooting is even better as as starter.


His turnover per minute is down.




In Boston, he showed the same thing.  A better player as a starter vs. off the bench.


He wasn't going to be the starter in Boston.  Therefor, Boston would have gotten the inferior bench TA, not the starting TA that is on display right now.  

Well said, TA just doesent work well off the bench coupled with his inconsistency I can see why the C's let him walk.

[Fan from VT]

Looks like TA was smart to go to Memphis. He has been thriving since punching Mayo.

And Memphis has been thriving since TA started getting more minutes.

Meanwhile, the Cs just traded their 26 year old starting center for a guy in Jeff Green whose per 36 minute numbers are eerily similar to TA's, only Jeff Green doesn't provide shutdown defense at 3 positions, and it'll take a lot more than 3.3 million per year to retain him.

Miscalculating TA and allowing him to go to Memphis is the biggest blunder in Danny's tenure, and the Perk trade was a direct result of that blunder.

Jeff Green isn't in the same ballpark as Tony   , if you took tony's athletic ability, marquis daniels calm brain (not the stoned version) and a 6'9" frame you have jeff green
green has defended c, pf and sf and depending on the matchups anywhere from fair to very good
tony has defended pg, sg and sf with the same range, he is a good defender but has never been lock down against an upper tier player at any of those posistions
tony is a bench player, i'd take dwest over him, better shooter, smaller but less turnovers

Jeff Green is an all-star talent type player, he is what charles barkley calls a "stud" he uses the same term for players like Rondo, Roy, Westbrook. Green is the 5th best player on this team in terms of talent, behind the Big 4. He is a great player he just hasnt been used in the correct way, hes coming off the bench for this team so we arent going to see what hes capable of unless he explodes for one game.

He is leagues and bounds better then Tony Allen.

If Charles Barkley calls you a "stud" you know your one hell of a player.

In his career, name one single thing Green has done at an all-star level.

[guava_wrench]

Looks like TA was smart to go to Memphis. He has been thriving since punching Mayo.

And Memphis has been thriving since TA started getting more minutes.

Meanwhile, the Cs just traded their 26 year old starting center for a guy in Jeff Green whose per 36 minute numbers are eerily similar to TA's, only Jeff Green doesn't provide shutdown defense at 3 positions, and it'll take a lot more than 3.3 million per year to retain him.

Miscalculating TA and allowing him to go to Memphis is the biggest blunder in Danny's tenure, and the Perk trade was a direct result of that blunder.

How is his playing well in Memphis an indictment of Danny? TA wanted to not play behind 2 HOFers and to have a fresh start. He would still be relegated to a bench player here while he is starting and contributing there.

Was Danny supposed to overpay TA to convince him to sacrifice opportunity to regain his career?

Danny miscalculated and allowed TA to get away without any compensation.  Good GMs like Danny rarely let assets walk away for nothing, and doing so last summer created the hole at backup shooting guard and small forward that ended up necessitating the trade of Perk to help shore up the bench.
...
And while Danny was ignoring Tony Allen, he was wooing JO, the 2nd biggest blunder of his tenure. 

Completely untrue about letting assets walk. All GMs lose guys to free agency for nothing. You can try to come up with all sorts of ways that Danny didn't do enough but that is just speculation. We had an offer out and so did Memphis. TA probably correctly realized that since the KG trade, his ability to shine has been hampered as he played behind 2 entrenched starters and potentially behind a 3rd wing ahead of him in the depth chart.

Being a role player off the bench won't get you much money and won't help you develop the mindset to be a more impactful player. He needed to be on a team where his role was more important.

I admit that JO will likely end up a bust.

[Megatron]

Looks like TA was smart to go to Memphis. He has been thriving since punching Mayo.

And Memphis has been thriving since TA started getting more minutes.

Meanwhile, the Cs just traded their 26 year old starting center for a guy in Jeff Green whose per 36 minute numbers are eerily similar to TA's, only Jeff Green doesn't provide shutdown defense at 3 positions, and it'll take a lot more than 3.3 million per year to retain him.

Miscalculating TA and allowing him to go to Memphis is the biggest blunder in Danny's tenure, and the Perk trade was a direct result of that blunder.

Jeff Green isn't in the same ballpark as Tony   , if you took tony's athletic ability, marquis daniels calm brain (not the stoned version) and a 6'9" frame you have jeff green
green has defended c, pf and sf and depending on the matchups anywhere from fair to very good
tony has defended pg, sg and sf with the same range, he is a good defender but has never been lock down against an upper tier player at any of those posistions
tony is a bench player, i'd take dwest over him, better shooter, smaller but less turnovers

Jeff Green is an all-star talent type player, he is what charles barkley calls a "stud" he uses the same term for players like Rondo, Roy, Westbrook. Green is the 5th best player on this team in terms of talent, behind the Big 4. He is a great player he just hasnt been used in the correct way, hes coming off the bench for this team so we arent going to see what hes capable of unless he explodes for one game.

He is leagues and bounds better then Tony Allen.

If Charles Barkley calls you a "stud" you know your one hell of a player.

In his career, name one single thing Green has done at an all-star level.

Hes averaged 15/6 as the 3rd option while playing out of position on a team with no inside presence and ball dominant wings in Durant and Westbrook.

Green could easily average 20/5/5 if he was the second option on a team while playing at the 3 spot regularly.

He was the #5 pick for a reason, that years draft was stacked also. He has the talent to be an all-star level player, even Ray Allen thinks so. He recently called Green a future "multiple all star".

Dont overlook his talent, he is leagues and bounds better then TA.

Ainge is obviously aiming at building this team around Rondo+Green in the future. You only do that if you think that player has the potential to be a star, and Green does that have that potential.

[Assassin70]

Looks like TA was smart to go to Memphis. He has been thriving since punching Mayo.

And Memphis has been thriving since TA started getting more minutes.

Meanwhile, the Cs just traded their 26 year old starting center for a guy in Jeff Green whose per 36 minute numbers are eerily similar to TA's, only Jeff Green doesn't provide shutdown defense at 3 positions, and it'll take a lot more than 3.3 million per year to retain him.

Miscalculating TA and allowing him to go to Memphis is the biggest blunder in Danny's tenure, and the Perk trade was a direct result of that blunder.

Jeff Green isn't in the same ballpark as Tony   , if you took tony's athletic ability, marquis daniels calm brain (not the stoned version) and a 6'9" frame you have jeff green
green has defended c, pf and sf and depending on the matchups anywhere from fair to very good
tony has defended pg, sg and sf with the same range, he is a good defender but has never been lock down against an upper tier player at any of those posistions
tony is a bench player, i'd take dwest over him, better shooter, smaller but less turnovers

Jeff Green is an all-star talent type player, he is what charles barkley calls a "stud" he uses the same term for players like Rondo, Roy, Westbrook. Green is the 5th best player on this team in terms of talent, behind the Big 4. He is a great player he just hasnt been used in the correct way, hes coming off the bench for this team so we arent going to see what hes capable of unless he explodes for one game.

He is leagues and bounds better then Tony Allen.

If Charles Barkley calls you a "stud" you know your one hell of a player.

In his career, name one single thing Green has done at an all-star level.

Hate to do it but.../agree

[Fan from VT]

Looks like TA was smart to go to Memphis. He has been thriving since punching Mayo.

And Memphis has been thriving since TA started getting more minutes.

Meanwhile, the Cs just traded their 26 year old starting center for a guy in Jeff Green whose per 36 minute numbers are eerily similar to TA's, only Jeff Green doesn't provide shutdown defense at 3 positions, and it'll take a lot more than 3.3 million per year to retain him.

Miscalculating TA and allowing him to go to Memphis is the biggest blunder in Danny's tenure, and the Perk trade was a direct result of that blunder.

Jeff Green isn't in the same ballpark as Tony  , if you took tony's athletic ability, marquis daniels calm brain (not the stoned version) and a 6'9" frame you have jeff green
green has defended c, pf and sf and depending on the matchups anywhere from fair to very good
tony has defended pg, sg and sf with the same range, he is a good defender but has never been lock down against an upper tier player at any of those posistions
tony is a bench player, i'd take dwest over him, better shooter, smaller but less turnovers

Jeff Green is an all-star talent type player, he is what charles barkley calls a "stud" he uses the same term for players like Rondo, Roy, Westbrook. Green is the 5th best player on this team in terms of talent, behind the Big 4. He is a great player he just hasnt been used in the correct way, hes coming off the bench for this team so we arent going to see what hes capable of unless he explodes for one game.

He is leagues and bounds better then Tony Allen.

If Charles Barkley calls you a "stud" you know your one hell of a player.

In his career, name one single thing Green has done at an all-star level.

Hes averaged 15/6 as the 3rd option while playing out of position on a team with no inside presence and ball dominant wings in Durant and Westbrook.

Green could easily average 20/5/5 if he was the second option on a team while playing at the 3 spot regularly.

He was the #5 pick for a reason, that years draft was stacked also. He has the talent to be an all-star level player, even Ray Allen thinks so. He recently called Green a future "multiple all star".

Dont overlook his talent, he is leagues and bounds better then TA.

Ainge is obviously aiming at building this team around Rondo+Green in the future. You only do that if you think that player has the potential to be a star, and Green does that have that potential.

So he hasn't actually DONE anything yet.

-Lots of people put up 15/6 with average to poor shooting in ~40 minutes. It's not that good.
-Lots of people are "talented" enough to be all-stars.
-Even more people are "reported" by other players to have such talent.
-Lots of players "could" be 20/5/5 players.

Basically: the number of people that "COULD" be all-stars/ 20/5/5 players drastically outnumbers the number of players who actually ARE all-stars/ 20/5/5 players. And that happens for a reason.

He's in Green, so I hope he succeeds. But he hasn't actually done anything yet at an all-star level (let alone multiple things), so I'll wait and see.