Danny traded the wrong member of the Starting 5

[BballTim]

Deron really isn't that high of a usage guy, his usage is only 3 points higher than Rondo's. (22.7 v. 19.6)

  Deron clocks in at 26.5, not 22.7. All of the big three are in the 18-22 range, probably averaging 20 or so.

Depends on which site you are using. Espn or bball reference. Either way he's not a high usage chucked by any measure.

  Espn seems to include assists so Rondo gets closer to Deron. basketballreference is based on offensive possessions used, shots and FTs and TOs. Deron uses more possessions than any  of the Celts and is 4th among PGs behind Rose, Westbrook and Lou Williams. Deron is 10th among all guards, Rondo is 70th.

http://bkref.com/tiny/x3weN

[dpaps]

People who are arguing about usage rate and shots taken are failing to understand that these players are on different teams in different systems. Rondo is the 5th option (4th when Perk was on the court) on our team. Dwill was the number one option on his team. Rose is the number one option on his team. CP3 is the number 1 or 2 option all the time on his team.

Does that mean that they are ball hogs and can't fit into a different system? Of course not. If Rondo were on the Bulls and played without Boozer and Noah, don't you think he'd have to shoot more? Don't you think he'd have to score more? Don't you think that if any starting point guard came to the Celtics, their shots taken would go down but their assists would go up?

Players like Dwill, Rose, and CP3 HAVE TO shoot more and have the ball in their hands more. Or else, their teams will be absolutely atrocious. Rondo has the benefit of not having to shoot and score so much.

[Army_of_One_Nation]

As evidence of the Heat v. Bulls game the other night, a good point guard will "almost" always put you in a position to win a game. DRose penetrated, double teamed by Wade and lbj (uncapitalized intended), dished out to a wide open Luol Deng for the big three. And in the Heat's ensuing possesion, lbj threw a brick of a 3 point attempt because the team expected him to take the last shot for them.  

If Rose was not a good offensive player, I don't think Wade would even dare double up on him. But, since Rose is a good shooter and a good offensive player, it happened because of his reputation.

With seconds to go and the game on the line, with your top players defended well, the point guard has to make something happen just like what Rose did. In the Celtic's case, the player defending Rondo would allow him to make the final shot knowing that Rondo's weakest trait is his jump shot. Not saying that Rondo is not top 5 point guard worthy. Just saying that you would want to have someone take the last shot who can be trusted in doing it.

[GoGreen9]

I would trade Rondo for DWill. I have no problem that we didnt but I think deron is that good. I think the OP has some fair points. I also think Rondo could be a lot better at keeping his man infront of him. I def wouldn't trade him for monta, nor nash. But like roy said, dwill and cp3 are probably better.

If the main reason you think we should get rid of Rondo is because he can't keep his man in front of him, you couldn't be more wrong.

Yeah because I said that we should get rid of Rondo... Read the post before you comment.

But yes Rondo could improve greatly in keeping his man in front of him and if you don't agree with that, you're not watching the Celtics.

You said you would trade Rondo for D-Wll, which is a terrible idea.

And, I have only missed a handful of Celtics games, by the way. I rarely ever see Rondo get beat off the dribble, so I don't know what games you are watching. There aren't four better defensive Point Guards in the NBA. If you think they are, list them.

I mean just because you say it's a terrible idea, doesn't mean that it is.

All I said is that Rondo can be improved at keeping his man in front of him. It's a fact. How many times does Rondo let his man go by and try to poke it away from behind. It works a lot of times, but you can't poke the ball from behind unless you are behind your man. If you rarely see Rondo get beat off the dribble you're watching the game with your eyes closed. Did I ever say Rondo is a bad defensive point guard? (waiting for you to go read), No, of course not.  Did I say that he can be better at keeping his man in front of him? Yes, and he can. 

When you say Rondo can't keep a man in front of him, it usually means you are pointing to him not being that good of a defender.

Also, to touch on your other post, I have watched a ton of NBA games this year. I have seen double digit games from each, CP3, and D-Will. If you honestly think D-Will is a good defender, you don't watch him.

Did I say Rondo "can't keep a man infront of him" ? I mean come on, read the post before you comment.

I said Rondo can be better at keeping his man in front of him. That is a fact. Period. If you don't think it's possible for Rondo to be better at keeping his man in front of him, argue that. Not only that, but I explicitly said Rondo IS a good defender.

I mean you act like I'm the only person in the world who thinks DWill is better than Rondo and by your comments I don't believe you one bit about watching double digit Hornets and Jazz games this year.

And your points about the Celtics being better with Rondo than without him... Clearly. No one has ever argued that the Celtics are not better with Rondo versus without Rondo. It's absolutely irrelevant and if you can't see that logical connection, we don't need to continue this debate. But just to play your game... What do you think the Hornets numbers look like with CP3 versus without him. What do you think the Bulls record would be this year without D Rose? Do you honestly think that the fact that the Celtics are a better team with Rondo versus without him is proof that he is better than CP3, Rose, and Dwill???

Well, you totally ignored my whole post about D-Will/Rose? And dude, you said Rondo needs to improve at keeping his man in front of him. Now, with you admitting he is a good defender, then don't bring that up as a point if you are going to argue, because you saying he is a good defender, totally contradicts the other statement about him needing to improve that area. Sure, he might let a guy by once or twice, but he is still a great defender, and I wouldn't want many other guys defending the opposing PG other than Rondo.

You can say D-Will is better than Rondo, but what I pointed out was that he doesn't fit the Celtics better than Rondo. I gave good points, and you didn't respond. The only thing you responded to was  Rondo's stats, and you made some good points.

Look, lets be fair. You didn't respond to my whole post on how Rose/Williams didn't fit the Celtics better than Rondo. I am fair, I respect your opinion, and you seem like a knowledgeable fan.

[BballTim]

All I said is that Rondo can be improved at keeping his man in front of him. It's a fact.

  That's a meaningless statement then. Dwight Howard could improve how well he finishes his dunks, Bird could have improved as a passer, Rodman could have been a better rebounder, Jordan could have been a better scorer. Those are also facts.

How many times does Rondo let his man go by and try to poke it away from behind. It works a lot of times, but you can't poke the ball from behind unless you are behind your man.

  How many times does Rondo "let his man go by and try to poke the ball away" compared to poking at the ball when he can't keep his man in front of him? He knocks the ball loose a fair amount of the time but there are a lot of people here who would think he was a better defender if he didn't bother to try and poke the ball loose.

If you rarely see Rondo get beat off the dribble you're watching the game with your eyes closed.

  No he's probably seeing the guys that come out and set picks so the pg can get by Rondo. "Rarely" is a relative term though. Rondo does get beat off the dribble, all players do. If your point is that Rondo gets beat less often than other point guards but still gets beat sometimes it's a fairly meaningless criticism. If your point is that he gets beat a lot compared to other point guards then you should easily be able to list a number of point guards that are better at keeping their man in front of them than Rondo.

[dpaps]

I would trade Rondo for DWill. I have no problem that we didnt but I think deron is that good. I think the OP has some fair points. I also think Rondo could be a lot better at keeping his man infront of him. I def wouldn't trade him for monta, nor nash. But like roy said, dwill and cp3 are probably better.

If the main reason you think we should get rid of Rondo is because he can't keep his man in front of him, you couldn't be more wrong.

Yeah because I said that we should get rid of Rondo... Read the post before you comment.

But yes Rondo could improve greatly in keeping his man in front of him and if you don't agree with that, you're not watching the Celtics.

You said you would trade Rondo for D-Wll, which is a terrible idea.

And, I have only missed a handful of Celtics games, by the way. I rarely ever see Rondo get beat off the dribble, so I don't know what games you are watching. There aren't four better defensive Point Guards in the NBA. If you think they are, list them.

I mean just because you say it's a terrible idea, doesn't mean that it is.

All I said is that Rondo can be improved at keeping his man in front of him. It's a fact. How many times does Rondo let his man go by and try to poke it away from behind. It works a lot of times, but you can't poke the ball from behind unless you are behind your man. If you rarely see Rondo get beat off the dribble you're watching the game with your eyes closed. Did I ever say Rondo is a bad defensive point guard? (waiting for you to go read), No, of course not.  Did I say that he can be better at keeping his man in front of him? Yes, and he can. 

When you say Rondo can't keep a man in front of him, it usually means you are pointing to him not being that good of a defender.

Also, to touch on your other post, I have watched a ton of NBA games this year. I have seen double digit games from each, CP3, and D-Will. If you honestly think D-Will is a good defender, you don't watch him.

Did I say Rondo "can't keep a man infront of him" ? I mean come on, read the post before you comment.

I said Rondo can be better at keeping his man in front of him. That is a fact. Period. If you don't think it's possible for Rondo to be better at keeping his man in front of him, argue that. Not only that, but I explicitly said Rondo IS a good defender.

I mean you act like I'm the only person in the world who thinks DWill is better than Rondo and by your comments I don't believe you one bit about watching double digit Hornets and Jazz games this year.

And your points about the Celtics being better with Rondo than without him... Clearly. No one has ever argued that the Celtics are not better with Rondo versus without Rondo. It's absolutely irrelevant and if you can't see that logical connection, we don't need to continue this debate. But just to play your game... What do you think the Hornets numbers look like with CP3 versus without him. What do you think the Bulls record would be this year without D Rose? Do you honestly think that the fact that the Celtics are a better team with Rondo versus without him is proof that he is better than CP3, Rose, and Dwill???

Well, you totally ignored my whole post about D-Will/Rose? And dude, you said Rondo needs to improve at keeping his man in front of him. Now, with you admitting he is a good defender, then don't bring that up as a point if you are going to argue, because you saying he is a good defender, totally contradicts the other statement about him needing to improve that area. Sure, he might let a guy by once or twice, but he is still a great defender, and I wouldn't want many other guys defending the opposing PG other than Rondo.

You can say D-Will is better than Rondo, but what I pointed out was that he doesn't fit the Celtics better than Rondo. I gave good points, and you didn't respond. The only thing you responded to was  Rondo's stats, and you made some good points.

Look, lets be fair. You didn't respond to my whole post on how Rose/Williams didn't fit the Celtics better than Rondo. I am fair, I respect your opinion, and you seem like a knowledgeable fan.

I get you man, and I didn't mean to attack you or Rondo. Like all bloggers on here, I'm a die hard C's fan and I love Rondo. Do I think he's the best PG in the game? No. Do I think people can argue he is? Yeah it's definitely debatable, he's fantastic, I just think some players are better.

I think Rondo is a good defender, I think he's a little overrated because of his steal numbers. How often do you see Rondo get down in a defensive stance and just shut down the opposing PG? Watch clips of Gary Payton back in the day, he would get down low and not let his man do anything. He would hound him.  Rondo stands straight up and reaches for steals all the time. He lets his man go by and tries to poke it away from behind. Because he's such a freak, Rondo can get away with it most of the time and he gets a lot of steals. But I do think Rondo could be much better at simply keeping the opposing PG from penetrating the lane.

I responded to your comments about Dwill and Rose in the 2nd post about usage rates and shots taken. You say Rose wouldn't fit this team because he takes 10 more shots per game. My point is that Rose is the number one option on Chicago by necessity. He HAS TO shoot. If he were on Boston, he would adapt his game accordingly. He would still score more than Rondo does now, but it's not like he'd shoot every possession.

I would bet that 95% of NBA coaches, GMs, and experts would take Rose over Rondo. Same For CP3. Dwill is closer, but I still think most would take him.

When we play the Lakers, how do they defend us? Kobe guards Rondo and he plays 5 feet off him. He tries to shadow whichever side Ray is coming off a screen and he doubles KG in the post. How many times do you see teams give Rondo a WIDE OPEN 18 foot jumper. The ability to sag off of Rondo hurts other aspects of our offense. With the other point guards, you can't do that, they'll kill you. You have to get up on them, and then they go by and dish for wide open looks because if you don't collapse they'll finish at the rack. When Rondo drives, he almost never looks to shoot and he tries to avoid contact at all costs.

I agree that Rondo is a great fit for our team, but I think if we had CP3, Rose, or Dwill here, we would feel the same way about them. We'd feel that they were the perfect fit for our team because we'd be winning.

[BballTim]

People who are arguing about usage rate and shots taken are failing to understand that these players are on different teams in different systems. Rondo is the 5th option (4th when Perk was on the court) on our team. Dwill was the number one option on his team. Rose is the number one option on his team. CP3 is the number 1 or 2 option all the time on his team.

Does that mean that they are ball hogs and can't fit into a different system? Of course not. If Rondo were on the Bulls and played without Boozer and Noah, don't you think he'd have to shoot more? Don't you think he'd have to score more? Don't you think that if any starting point guard came to the Celtics, their shots taken would go down but their assists would go up?

  First of all I don't think you can just assume that their assists would go up. They'd likely be handling the ball less often and players like PP and KG are above average passers, and are more likely to make the extra pass than just shoot.

  And nobody's failing to understand about usage rates, or the differences in systems. In fact it's a main point of mine. People claim that we'd be better with Williams are doing so almost exclusively based on his scoring advantage. Put Deron on a team that doesn't rely on his being the focal point of the offense and his scoring will probably go down. Is it really a gain to give up all of the things Rondo does better to get a smaller than expected difference in points scored? If Deron gets fewer points and possibly fewer assists than he gets now is he really an improvement?

[snively]

People who are arguing about usage rate and shots taken are failing to understand that these players are on different teams in different systems. Rondo is the 5th option (4th when Perk was on the court) on our team. Dwill was the number one option on his team. Rose is the number one option on his team. CP3 is the number 1 or 2 option all the time on his team.

Does that mean that they are ball hogs and can't fit into a different system? Of course not. If Rondo were on the Bulls and played without Boozer and Noah, don't you think he'd have to shoot more? Don't you think he'd have to score more? Don't you think that if any starting point guard came to the Celtics, their shots taken would go down but their assists would go up?

Players like Dwill, Rose, and CP3 HAVE TO shoot more and have the ball in their hands more. Or else, their teams will be absolutely atrocious. Rondo has the benefit of not having to shoot and score so much.

Don't you see the point? If Rondo's the 4th or 5th option, why try to replace him with a guy whose main claim to superiority in the comparison is that he's a better 1st option than Rondo?  I'd say Rondo's better or equal to Williams in every other aspect of the game besides shooting/scoring.  Further, I'd say each of the big 3 are better or equal to Deron in shooting/scoring.

So by adding Deron Williams to our starting line-up the offensive benefit is marginal, as the Rondo shots he'll take (and make more efficiently) are so few (and Rondo's not bad with the ones he gets anyway) and we probably won't gain any efficiency on the shots he takes away from the big 3.  Meanwhile, we lose Rondo's superior defense and extra possession work.

The only way the offense could really improve in this scenario would be if Williams replaced the shots/playmaking efforts of guys like Big Baby and Nate Robinson, or allowed the big 3 to by taking some of their responsibilities with the starters.  But we don't have the personnel for that.  The big 3 have become heavily dependent on excellent playmaking to be effective, so they become less useful/efficient if separated from each other and the starting PG. 

[GoGreen9]

I would trade Rondo for DWill. I have no problem that we didnt but I think deron is that good. I think the OP has some fair points. I also think Rondo could be a lot better at keeping his man infront of him. I def wouldn't trade him for monta, nor nash. But like roy said, dwill and cp3 are probably better.

If the main reason you think we should get rid of Rondo is because he can't keep his man in front of him, you couldn't be more wrong.

Yeah because I said that we should get rid of Rondo... Read the post before you comment.

But yes Rondo could improve greatly in keeping his man in front of him and if you don't agree with that, you're not watching the Celtics.

You said you would trade Rondo for D-Wll, which is a terrible idea.

And, I have only missed a handful of Celtics games, by the way. I rarely ever see Rondo get beat off the dribble, so I don't know what games you are watching. There aren't four better defensive Point Guards in the NBA. If you think they are, list them.

I mean just because you say it's a terrible idea, doesn't mean that it is.

All I said is that Rondo can be improved at keeping his man in front of him. It's a fact. How many times does Rondo let his man go by and try to poke it away from behind. It works a lot of times, but you can't poke the ball from behind unless you are behind your man. If you rarely see Rondo get beat off the dribble you're watching the game with your eyes closed. Did I ever say Rondo is a bad defensive point guard? (waiting for you to go read), No, of course not.  Did I say that he can be better at keeping his man in front of him? Yes, and he can. 

When you say Rondo can't keep a man in front of him, it usually means you are pointing to him not being that good of a defender.

Also, to touch on your other post, I have watched a ton of NBA games this year. I have seen double digit games from each, CP3, and D-Will. If you honestly think D-Will is a good defender, you don't watch him.

Did I say Rondo "can't keep a man infront of him" ? I mean come on, read the post before you comment.

I said Rondo can be better at keeping his man in front of him. That is a fact. Period. If you don't think it's possible for Rondo to be better at keeping his man in front of him, argue that. Not only that, but I explicitly said Rondo IS a good defender.

I mean you act like I'm the only person in the world who thinks DWill is better than Rondo and by your comments I don't believe you one bit about watching double digit Hornets and Jazz games this year.

And your points about the Celtics being better with Rondo than without him... Clearly. No one has ever argued that the Celtics are not better with Rondo versus without Rondo. It's absolutely irrelevant and if you can't see that logical connection, we don't need to continue this debate. But just to play your game... What do you think the Hornets numbers look like with CP3 versus without him. What do you think the Bulls record would be this year without D Rose? Do you honestly think that the fact that the Celtics are a better team with Rondo versus without him is proof that he is better than CP3, Rose, and Dwill???

Well, you totally ignored my whole post about D-Will/Rose? And dude, you said Rondo needs to improve at keeping his man in front of him. Now, with you admitting he is a good defender, then don't bring that up as a point if you are going to argue, because you saying he is a good defender, totally contradicts the other statement about him needing to improve that area. Sure, he might let a guy by once or twice, but he is still a great defender, and I wouldn't want many other guys defending the opposing PG other than Rondo.

You can say D-Will is better than Rondo, but what I pointed out was that he doesn't fit the Celtics better than Rondo. I gave good points, and you didn't respond. The only thing you responded to was  Rondo's stats, and you made some good points.

Look, lets be fair. You didn't respond to my whole post on how Rose/Williams didn't fit the Celtics better than Rondo. I am fair, I respect your opinion, and you seem like a knowledgeable fan.

I get you man, and I didn't mean to attack you or Rondo. Like all bloggers on here, I'm a die hard C's fan and I love Rondo. Do I think he's the best PG in the game? No. Do I think people can argue he is? Yeah it's definitely debatable, he's fantastic, I just think some players are better.

I think Rondo is a good defender, I think he's a little overrated because of his steal numbers. How often do you see Rondo get down in a defensive stance and just shut down the opposing PG? Watch clips of Gary Payton back in the day, he would get down low and not let his man do anything. He would hound him.  Rondo stands straight up and reaches for steals all the time. He lets his man go by and tries to poke it away from behind. Because he's such a freak, Rondo can get away with it most of the time and he gets a lot of steals. But I do think Rondo could be much better at simply keeping the opposing PG from penetrating the lane.

I responded to your comments about Dwill and Rose in the 2nd post about usage rates and shots taken. You say Rose wouldn't fit this team because he takes 10 more shots per game. My point is that Rose is the number one option on Chicago by necessity. He HAS TO shoot. If he were on Boston, he would adapt his game accordingly. He would still score more than Rondo does now, but it's not like he'd shoot every possession.

I would bet that 95% of NBA coaches, GMs, and experts would take Rose over Rondo. Same For CP3. Dwill is closer, but I still think most would take him.

When we play the Lakers, how do they defend us? Kobe guards Rondo and he plays 5 feet off him. He tries to shadow whichever side Ray is coming off a screen and he doubles KG in the post. How many times do you see teams give Rondo a WIDE OPEN 18 foot jumper. The ability to sag off of Rondo hurts other aspects of our offense. With the other point guards, you can't do that, they'll kill you. You have to get up on them, and then they go by and dish for wide open looks because if you don't collapse they'll finish at the rack. When Rondo drives, he almost never looks to shoot and he tries to avoid contact at all costs.

I agree that Rondo is a great fit for our team, but I think if we had CP3, Rose, or Dwill here, we would feel the same way about them. We'd feel that they were the perfect fit for our team because we'd be winning.

Alright, well I don't know what to say back to you thinking he can improve on the defensive end. Of course he can, just like everyone can improve. I guess we will never come to an agreement on that.

Also, you didn't respond to the whole thing. You responded to one little part of it. I wrote a lot on D-Will, and I don't think I saw one response. And, on your opinion of Rose being able to adapt to the Celtics is a totally guess. What makes you think he would totally change his game, to becoming a pass first Point Guard? Even if he did, he would be not nearly as effective as Rondo is.

[BigAlTheFuture]

I almost shed a tear when I found out we traded Perk. But just because it was Perk. I thought Danny made a good trade. It didn't lessen our chances of winning the championship this year, imo. I've always been a fan of Jeff Green and I look forward to seeing him play for us.

[BballTim]

I would bet that 95% of NBA coaches, GMs, and experts would take Rose over Rondo. Same For CP3. Dwill is closer, but I still think most would take him.

  Keep in mind you're claiming to know what 95% of these people would say when it's pretty clear they don't share your opinion of Rondo as a defender. In their preseason survey he got about as many votes for best on the ball defender as the 2nd and 3rd place finishers combined.

  By the way, go back and watch the clips of Payton. Maybe you'll see the effect that changes to the hand check rule have had on the game. It's no coincidence that point guards today are putting up much better numbers than most point guards that played when he was a defensive standout.

[Juneauz]

I can't believe what I read.
Are you serious??? Starting a thread to bash Rondo on celticsblog.com?
Our best player? the guy who's running the show??
This is so disrispectful to the leader of our team.
I wouldn't trade him for any other pg in the league, ever. He's the best thing that happened to us in so many years.
As Doc always says: "Put the ball in Rondo's hands and everything will be fine". Not KG. Not PP. Not Ray. R O N D O.

this is crazy.
I thought this was a forum for celtics fans, I already take enough stupid comments from bulls fans on youtube.
I'm out of here.

[BballTim]

Are you serious??? Starting a thread to bash Rondo on celticsblog.com?

  New member alert.

[Juneauz]

Are you serious??? Starting a thread to bash Rondo on celticsblog.com?

  New member alert.

is that a problem?

[dpaps]

I can't believe what I read.
Are you serious??? Starting a thread to bash Rondo on celticsblog.com?
Our best player? the guy who's running the show??
This is so disrispectful to the leader of our team.
I wouldn't trade him for any other pg in the league, ever. He's the best thing that happened to us in so many years.
As Doc always says: "Put the ball in Rondo's hands and everything will be fine". Not KG. Not PP. Not Ray. R O N D O.

this is crazy.
I thought this was a forum for celtics fans, I already take enough stupid comments from bulls fans on youtube.
I'm out of here.

The OP explicitly stated it wasn't a bash Rondo thread. All he said is that he would consider trading Rondo. I think your response is so off based it's not even funny.

Bye.