Isiah Thomas Hands All Over Melo Trade

[Who]

Joakim Noah's defense on Dwight Howard does not decide the series.

Chicago can happily give up some scoring to Dwight in the post so long as they can limit the rest of Orlando's offense ... which they are more than capable of doing.

[guava_wrench]

Why should we care that Melo is an excellent scorer? The problem is he scores a particular way and it isn't clear that NY will be all that strong as a team. Lots of guys have been top scorers on losing teams. So what?

How many times has Carmelo Anthony missed the playoffs? We're not talking about Nick Young here..we're talking about one of the best pure scorers in the basketball.

AI scored 26 PPG his final full season with Melo in Denver. Did they scare anyone in the playoffs when they were swept in the first round? AI was one of the best pure scorers in basketball.

It isn't enough to have 2 of the best pure scorers to really make waves. You need a team.

It also doesn't make sense to call a series based on a single matchup. Look at how many times players have dominate games and their team still lost. Basketball isn't that simplistic.

In games where Joakim Noah has played, Dwight Howard is 8-2, averaging 18 pts, 12 boards, and 2 blocks. Noah projects to roughly 5 fouls in 30 mins. It is not the whole matchup, and the last time Chicago played Orlando (sans Noah), Chicago won. However, Howard still went for 40 and 15, and the rest of his teammates combined shot around 30%. That's not going to happen 4 games outta 7.

Chicago will not and cannot as presently constituted beat Orlando in a playoff matchup, and it is because of Dwight Howard.

Why are you talking about games from past seasons when Orlando was a top team and Chicago was mediocre? Why are you focusing on those 10 games and excluding the more recent game when Noah was out and Rose was at his current all-NBA level? Doesn't that more recent game show that the single matchup isn't that big of a deal so long as the opponent works to shut down everyone else? Isn't that a common defensive tactic?

You said "That's not going to happen 4 games outta 7". I suppose that is true -- Howard will not dominate like that 4 games out of 7.

[indeedproceed]

Why should we care that Melo is an excellent scorer? The problem is he scores a particular way and it isn't clear that NY will be all that strong as a team. Lots of guys have been top scorers on losing teams. So what?

How many times has Carmelo Anthony missed the playoffs? We're not talking about Nick Young here..we're talking about one of the best pure scorers in the basketball.

AI scored 26 PPG his final full season with Melo in Denver. Did they scare anyone in the playoffs when they were swept in the first round? AI was one of the best pure scorers in basketball.

It isn't enough to have 2 of the best pure scorers to really make waves. You need a team.

Well define "really make waves". Did Cleveland "really make waves"? Did Orlando last year?

Only 2 teams make it to the finals, and only 1 team wins. The year you're talking about, Denver finished the regular season a 50 win team, and lost in 4 games to the eventual western conference champs. Its not like they didn't matter..they ran into a better team and lost.

And Iverson had his last real year as an elite scorer, but his defense was going from bad to worse, and his point guarding repertoire was fading as well...to the point where they needed Anthony Carter to play nearly 30 mins a game.

Melo is a much more complete player than Iverson was at that point, and so is Amar'e. Not at all a parallel comparison.

It also doesn't make sense to call a series based on a single matchup. Look at how many times players have dominate games and their team still lost. Basketball isn't that simplistic.

In games where Joakim Noah has played, Dwight Howard is 8-2, averaging 18 pts, 12 boards, and 2 blocks. Noah projects to roughly 5 fouls in 30 mins. It is not the whole matchup, and the last time Chicago played Orlando (sans Noah), Chicago won. However, Howard still went for 40 and 15, and the rest of his teammates combined shot around 30%. That's not going to happen 4 games outta 7.

Chicago will not and cannot as presently constituted beat Orlando in a playoff matchup, and it is because of Dwight Howard.

Why are you talking about games from past seasons when Orlando was a top team and Chicago was mediocre? Why are you focusing on those 10 games and excluding the more recent game when Noah was out and Rose was at his current all-NBA level? Doesn't that more recent game show that the single matchup isn't that big of a deal so long as the opponent works to shut down everyone else? Isn't that a common defensive tactic?

You said "That's not going to happen 4 games outta 7". I suppose that is true -- Howard will not dominate like that 4 games out of 7.

Well, Howard will not score 40 ppg in 4 games out of 7, that's true..but he'll dominate.

[Celtics4ever]

Isiah can recognize talent that has been proven with his draft picks.  However, he was mediocre with trades.

[Bankshot]

i still wouldn't put NY in with Orlando, 3 (Melo, Amar'e Billups) players and no bench or any other good players (no gallinari, no felton, no chandler), theyre like a crappier version of the Heat

Crappy Heat, minus defense.

[moiso]

Why should we care that Melo is an excellent scorer? The problem is he scores a particular way and it isn't clear that NY will be all that strong as a team. Lots of guys have been top scorers on losing teams. So what?

How many times has Carmelo Anthony missed the playoffs? We're not talking about Nick Young here..we're talking about one of the best pure scorers in the basketball.

AI scored 26 PPG his final full season with Melo in Denver. Did they scare anyone in the playoffs when they were swept in the first round? AI was one of the best pure scorers in basketball.

It isn't enough to have 2 of the best pure scorers to really make waves. You need a team.

Well define "really make waves". Did Cleveland "really make waves"? Did Orlando last year?

Only 2 teams make it to the finals, and only 1 team wins. The year you're talking about, Denver finished the regular season a 50 win team, and lost in 4 games to the eventual western conference champs. Its not like they didn't matter..they ran into a better team and lost.

And Iverson had his last real year as an elite scorer, but his defense was going from bad to worse, and his point guarding repertoire was fading as well...to the point where they needed Anthony Carter to play nearly 30 mins a game.

Melo is a much more complete player than Iverson was at that point, and so is Amar'e. Not at all a parallel comparison.

It also doesn't make sense to call a series based on a single matchup. Look at how many times players have dominate games and their team still lost. Basketball isn't that simplistic.

In games where Joakim Noah has played, Dwight Howard is 8-2, averaging 18 pts, 12 boards, and 2 blocks. Noah projects to roughly 5 fouls in 30 mins. It is not the whole matchup, and the last time Chicago played Orlando (sans Noah), Chicago won. However, Howard still went for 40 and 15, and the rest of his teammates combined shot around 30%. That's not going to happen 4 games outta 7.

Chicago will not and cannot as presently constituted beat Orlando in a playoff matchup, and it is because of Dwight Howard.

Why are you talking about games from past seasons when Orlando was a top team and Chicago was mediocre? Why are you focusing on those 10 games and excluding the more recent game when Noah was out and Rose was at his current all-NBA level? Doesn't that more recent game show that the single matchup isn't that big of a deal so long as the opponent works to shut down everyone else? Isn't that a common defensive tactic?

You said "That's not going to happen 4 games outta 7". I suppose that is true -- Howard will not dominate like that 4 games out of 7.

Well, Howard will not score 40 ppg in 4 games out of 7, that's true..but he'll dominate.

I'm not sure that Anthony is much more complete than AI was at that point.  They seem pretty comparable actually.  Both are great volume scorers.  AI could pass a bit and Anthony can rebound.  Neither one plays defense.  I have to gree with guavawrench's posts.

[soap07]

Why should we care that Melo is an excellent scorer? The problem is he scores a particular way and it isn't clear that NY will be all that strong as a team. Lots of guys have been top scorers on losing teams. So what?

How many times has Carmelo Anthony missed the playoffs? We're not talking about Nick Young here..we're talking about one of the best pure scorers in the basketball.

AI scored 26 PPG his final full season with Melo in Denver. Did they scare anyone in the playoffs when they were swept in the first round? AI was one of the best pure scorers in basketball.

It isn't enough to have 2 of the best pure scorers to really make waves. You need a team.

Well define "really make waves". Did Cleveland "really make waves"? Did Orlando last year?

Only 2 teams make it to the finals, and only 1 team wins. The year you're talking about, Denver finished the regular season a 50 win team, and lost in 4 games to the eventual western conference champs. Its not like they didn't matter..they ran into a better team and lost.

And Iverson had his last real year as an elite scorer, but his defense was going from bad to worse, and his point guarding repertoire was fading as well...to the point where they needed Anthony Carter to play nearly 30 mins a game.

Melo is a much more complete player than Iverson was at that point, and so is Amar'e. Not at all a parallel comparison.

It also doesn't make sense to call a series based on a single matchup. Look at how many times players have dominate games and their team still lost. Basketball isn't that simplistic.

In games where Joakim Noah has played, Dwight Howard is 8-2, averaging 18 pts, 12 boards, and 2 blocks. Noah projects to roughly 5 fouls in 30 mins. It is not the whole matchup, and the last time Chicago played Orlando (sans Noah), Chicago won. However, Howard still went for 40 and 15, and the rest of his teammates combined shot around 30%. That's not going to happen 4 games outta 7.

Chicago will not and cannot as presently constituted beat Orlando in a playoff matchup, and it is because of Dwight Howard.

Why are you talking about games from past seasons when Orlando was a top team and Chicago was mediocre? Why are you focusing on those 10 games and excluding the more recent game when Noah was out and Rose was at his current all-NBA level? Doesn't that more recent game show that the single matchup isn't that big of a deal so long as the opponent works to shut down everyone else? Isn't that a common defensive tactic?

You said "That's not going to happen 4 games outta 7". I suppose that is true -- Howard will not dominate like that 4 games out of 7.

Well, Howard will not score 40 ppg in 4 games out of 7, that's true..but he'll dominate.

I'm not sure that Anthony is much more complete than AI was at that point.  They seem pretty comparable actually.  Both are great volume scorers.  AI could pass a bit and Anthony can rebound.  Neither one plays defense.  I have to gree with guavawrench's posts.

Interestingly enough, Iverson has a higher career PER and WS/48 than Melo.

[moiso]

Also, the Nuggets have had some pretty darn talented teams.  They have underachieved in my opinion.  As the "superstar" of that team, Anthony deserves his share of the blame.

[soap07]

Also, the Nuggets have had some pretty darn talented teams.  They have underachieved in my opinion.  As the "superstar" of that team, Anthony deserves his share of the blame.

What team should the Nuggets have beaten in the playoffs that they didn't? Melo's rookie year, the Nuggets lost to the eventual Champs, in the Spurs. They've lost two years to the Lakers, who went on to the Finals both years, winning once. They lost to the Clippers, led by a very good Elton Brand/Sam Cassell tandem. In Melo's rookie year, they lost in the first round to the KG-led Timberwolves team.

[Who]

Also, the Nuggets have had some pretty darn talented teams.  They have underachieved in my opinion.  As the "superstar" of that team, Anthony deserves his share of the blame.

I thought they were always one piece away. Never a real contender.

A very good squad though. Consistently a team capable of making a brief run in the playoffs. Win a series or two.

[The Walker Wiggle]

New York Post is confirming that both Walsh and D'Antoni were out of the loop as the Carmelo trade was finalized.

The Carmelo Anthony blockbuster - spearheaded by Knicks owner James Dolan with Isiah Thomas in his ear - does not bode well for team president Donnie Walsh. Two sources told The Post that, as negotiations for Anthony heated up in Los Angeles with Dolan, Walsh bolted for Indiana to see his family during All-Star Weekend.

One source said Walsh packed up and left because he was irritated and felt it was a waste of time being in New York since trade negotiations were taking place in Los Angeles without him, and with Thomas advising Dolan. Another league source said Thomas wanted to make the deal more than Walsh did.

D'Antoni admitted he was out of the loop over the weekend, and one source says the Knicks coach feels they gave up too much.

[guava_wrench]

Well define "really make waves". Did Cleveland "really make waves"? Did Orlando last year?

Only 2 teams make it to the finals, and only 1 team wins. The year you're talking about, Denver finished the regular season a 50 win team, and lost in 4 games to the eventual western conference champs. Its not like they didn't matter..they ran into a better team and lost.

And Iverson had his last real year as an elite scorer, but his defense was going from bad to worse, and his point guarding repertoire was fading as well...to the point where they needed Anthony Carter to play nearly 30 mins a game.

Melo is a much more complete player than Iverson was at that point, and so is Amar'e. Not at all a parallel comparison.

Yes, Clev and Orlando really made waves. Both made it to the finals and both made it past the first round annually.

I don't see why Melo is a more complete player. He is one dimensional. How is that complete? They have the same kind of game -- force questionable shots with moves that are hard to defend.

What Melo lacks is AI's ability to completely disrupt a defense through a frenetic style of play. That is what made AI such a game changer. It wasn't just his skill set. Melo does the opposite. He lets defenses load up by slowing down for iso moves. I see him as a 'whole is less than the sum of the parts' player.

Well, Howard will not score 40 ppg in 4 games out of 7, that's true..but he'll dominate.

That isn't enough to declare Orlando beating (or even being favored over) the Bulls a foregone conclusion.

[Bankshot]

Not buying that Isiah had anything to do with it. Sounds like he's being scapegoated in case the trade doesn't work out. Blame it on Isiah, the guy who is no longer there.

[Redz]

I don't understand why on earth the Knickerbockers would ever want to get within a mile of Isiaah again.

[Finkelskyhook]

Well, Howard will not score 40 ppg in 4 games out of 7, that's true..but he'll dominate.

Even though Howard isn't a scorer, he'll almost always outscore whoever he's guarding....In addition to covering for his teammates.

Neither Stoudemire nor Anthony will ever do that.