theory on corrupt refs

[incoherent]

Please click on this link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Donaghy

Make a joke about it if you want, but you can't ignore the facts.

[fairweatherfan]

Please click on this link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Donaghy

Make a joke about it if you want, but you can't ignore the facts.

The problem with your argument is that Tim Donaghy is not David Stern, and whatever he might have done was not on David Stern's instructions.

Donaghy's actions and what you're alleging in the OP are two very different things.  One involves a corrupt individual, the other a corrupt organization involved in a massive conspiracy starting at the top, along with some kind of implied blackmail by multiple top officials.  That's a huge leap to make.

[MBunge]

There's no need to bring willful corruption into it.  It's the dysfunctional culture of NBA officiating that's the problem.

Mike

Really? I didn't bring willful corruption into it.  The corrupt ref who changed the outcome of games to make the mafia money did.

The ref who spent time in jail for being caught. The same ref who had his knees broken in jail by the mafia because he 'spilled the beans'.

I didn't bring willful corruption into this, an actual NBA ref did.

And I don't believe that corrupt ref had ANY evidence at all that any other ref was corrupt.  The only trustworthy thing he said about other refs is that he could predict how games were going to go based on the honest tendencies of how those refs do their jobs, which gets back to the dysfunctional culture of NBA officiating.

Take charge calls for example.  If a defensive player gets his feet outside the half circle, he is are almost guaranteed to get that call, even if he really isn't in the position to deserve it.  And that's even more likely if the ref is expecting a player to draw that charge, like Big Baby.  On the other hand, when LeBron just puts his head down and runs right into his defender's chest on the way to the hoop, an offensive foul is almost never called no matter how much it's deserved.

Mike

[mgent]

Please click on this link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Donaghy

Make a joke about it if you want, but you can't ignore the facts.

The problem with your argument is that Tim Donaghy is not David Stern, and whatever he might have done was not on David Stern's instructions.

Donaghy's actions and what you're alleging in the OP are two very different things.  One involves a corrupt individual, the other a corrupt organization involved in a massive conspiracy starting at the top, along with some kind of implied blackmail by multiple top officials.  That's a huge leap to make.

Who cares?  All you need is one part to be corrupt for the league to be compromised.  I don't care if it's corruption, conspiracy, whatever; the refs do not call the games correctly and it affects the viewing experience as well as the integrity of the league.

[greenpride32]

To the OP; if you don't believe Tim Donaghy's story there's nothing that will come out that you would ever believe.  The league has money, influence, and power to some degree.  They just tried to discredit Tim, and instead of addressing the issue just ignored it saying he's not worth the time.

That strategy didn't work out too well with MLB and Jose Canseco.  Remember how many were saying he was wrong when his story first broke?

[action781]

I noticed on Sunday in the Miami game when Wade missed a layup... he yelled so loudly at the ref after not getting a call the people at home could hear him.  He then threw his arms in the air the whole time staring at the ref.

The announcers immediately were confused as to why he didn't get T-d up, and how he definitely deserved one.  

If any other player in that position did what Wade did it would be an automatic T.

EDIT: I'll note that Wade did get a T because he kept barking at the ref while running up the court.. the T did come, but way way way to late.

What I took from the situation was the ref appeared ready to give Wade a T, then noticed that OKC was on a fast break and calling a T would hurt OKC and bring the fast break to a halt, so the ref waited until Miami got the ball back, then gave Wade the T he deserved.  I actually thought it was the absolutely proper way to handle the situation.

[guava_wrench]

I noticed on Sunday in the Miami game when Wade missed a layup... he yelled so loudly at the ref after not getting a call the people at home could hear him.  He then threw his arms in the air the whole time staring at the ref.

The announcers immediately were confused as to why he didn't get T-d up, and how he definitely deserved one.  

If any other player in that position did what Wade did it would be an automatic T.

EDIT: I'll note that Wade did get a T because he kept barking at the ref while running up the court.. the T did come, but way way way to late.

What I took from the situation was the ref appeared ready to give Wade a T, then noticed that OKC was on a fast break and calling a T would hurt OKC and bring the fast break to a halt, so the ref waited until Miami got the ball back, then gave Wade the T he deserved.  I actually thought it was the absolutely proper way to handle the situation.

This is pretty much standard practice. You don't hurt the other  team in order to call a tech.

Sadly, people can twist things like this into fantastical arguments.

[nba is the worst]

A review of how many key games Joey Crawford, Bennett Salvatore, Steve javie, and Dan Crawford have been involved in with WAY out of bell-curve ft numbers is pretty convincing circumstantial evidence...

Joey and Bennett were there in the '06 Finals game 5, where Wade shot 25 of the Heat's 49 fts in a 1-pt OT win (Heat were +24 fts in that one) - and then in the next game in dallas it was Dan Crawford and Steve Javie conducting a -14 ft margin in a 3-pt loss...

that's cherry picking though, you'd have to look at a huge body of work to make this claim, you named 2...

the game people tend to cite as the most corrupt of all time was Kings-Lakers game 6 - Dick Bavetta, Bob Delaney, Ted Berdhardt, none of your "usual suspects" - see I just cherry picked one game to disprove your point

Read if you like:

http://www.82games.com/lakerskingsgame6.htm

I cited the Finals people call "the most corrupt of all time" - as Wade got handed the alltime record for fta's (97) in just 6 games.

Avgd almost 16.2 ft's/gm, WAY up from his 9.0pg earlier in the playoffs that year.

[Neurotic Guy]

How many of these old timers... terrible refs that been around for ever, probably have some sort of evidence, tape.. documents (or whatever) that proves Stern has ordered them to keep games close or give star treatment to money makers?

I'm looking forward to when these refs lose their jobs and that some of these things will be revealed to further support the mafia ref's claims about an extremely corrupt reffing system.

And when that day comes I am going to bump this thread!

Also, a ref with evidence might explain how some of these refs still even have jobs.

If I believed this to be true, I wouldn't watch the NBA.  Till the mass expose happens, I'll be dubious of accusations like yours.  I don't understand how you could be a fan if you believe that the league is corrupt and games are fixed. 

But if corruption exists, I guess I should be thankful that the conspirators have favored the Celtics over the years. 

[nba is the worst]

From FLCelticsFan on tonight's game thread:

Salvatore made one of the most controversial calls in NBA finals history in game 5 of the 2006 finals. The call basically gave the Heat their championship. Here is Bill Simmons' take on the call.

Salvatore called the foul on Wade's final drive in overtime (remember, the call where ABC couldn't find a replay to show that anyone touched him?) even though he was standing at midcourt a full 35-40 feet from the play, and even though two other refs were closer to the play. Not only was that NOT his call, he butchered it. (Wade's two makes were the winning margin).

[MBunge]

From FLCelticsFan on tonight's game thread:

Salvatore made one of the most controversial calls in NBA finals history in game 5 of the 2006 finals. The call basically gave the Heat their championship. Here is Bill Simmons' take on the call.

Salvatore called the foul on Wade's final drive in overtime (remember, the call where ABC couldn't find a replay to show that anyone touched him?) even though he was standing at midcourt a full 35-40 feet from the play, and even though two other refs were closer to the play. Not only was that NOT his call, he butchered it. (Wade's two makes were the winning margin).

But that's actually an example of the dysfunctional culture and not corruption because you see NBA refs calling bogus fouls from the other side of the court all the frickin' time.

Mike

[nba is the worst]

From FLCelticsFan on tonight's game thread:

Salvatore made one of the most controversial calls in NBA finals history in game 5 of the 2006 finals. The call basically gave the Heat their championship. Here is Bill Simmons' take on the call.

Salvatore called the foul on Wade's final drive in overtime (remember, the call where ABC couldn't find a replay to show that anyone touched him?) even though he was standing at midcourt a full 35-40 feet from the play, and even though two other refs were closer to the play. Not only was that NOT his call, he butchered it. (Wade's two makes were the winning margin).

But that's actually an example of the dysfunctional culture and not corruption because you see NBA refs calling bogus fouls from the other side of the court all the frickin' time.

Mike

Err - those were Wade's 24th and 25th ft attempts in that game and the 48th and 49th for the heat - a game that they won by 1 point.

The Mavs, who led in points in the paint, rebounds, etc, had 25 fts...

I say it DOES indicate corruption.

[MBunge]

From FLCelticsFan on tonight's game thread:

Salvatore made one of the most controversial calls in NBA finals history in game 5 of the 2006 finals. The call basically gave the Heat their championship. Here is Bill Simmons' take on the call.

Salvatore called the foul on Wade's final drive in overtime (remember, the call where ABC couldn't find a replay to show that anyone touched him?) even though he was standing at midcourt a full 35-40 feet from the play, and even though two other refs were closer to the play. Not only was that NOT his call, he butchered it. (Wade's two makes were the winning margin).

But that's actually an example of the dysfunctional culture and not corruption because you see NBA refs calling bogus fouls from the other side of the court all the frickin' time.

Mike

Err - those were Wade's 24th and 25th ft attempts in that game and the 48th and 49th for the heat - a game that they won by 1 point.

The Mavs, who led in points in the paint, rebounds, etc, had 25 fts...

I say it DOES indicate corruption.

But my point is that we see that exact same call all the time in regular NBA games.  The ref who made that call wasn't doing anything different from other refs who call bogus fouls from the other side of the court hundreds of times during the regular season.  Corruption doesn't enter into it.

Mike

[Finkelskyhook]

From FLCelticsFan on tonight's game thread:

Salvatore made one of the most controversial calls in NBA finals history in game 5 of the 2006 finals. The call basically gave the Heat their championship. Here is Bill Simmons' take on the call.

Salvatore called the foul on Wade's final drive in overtime (remember, the call where ABC couldn't find a replay to show that anyone touched him?) even though he was standing at midcourt a full 35-40 feet from the play, and even though two other refs were closer to the play. Not only was that NOT his call, he butchered it. (Wade's two makes were the winning margin).

But that's actually an example of the dysfunctional culture and not corruption because you see NBA refs calling bogus fouls from the other side of the court all the frickin' time.

Mike

Err - those were Wade's 24th and 25th ft attempts in that game and the 48th and 49th for the heat - a game that they won by 1 point.

The Mavs, who led in points in the paint, rebounds, etc, had 25 fts...

I say it DOES indicate corruption.

But my point is that we see that exact same call all the time in regular NBA games.  The ref who made that call wasn't doing anything different from other refs who call bogus fouls from the other side of the court hundreds of times during the regular season.  Corruption doesn't enter into it.

Mike

If it were dysfunctional, the calls wouldn't be so consistent.  Pierce gets the same bogus upfake/charge called as a defensive foul every time.  He virtually never gets called for traveling in spite of the fact that he consistently overtly travels.  The messiah universally gets called for nothing and consistently is the beneficiary of bogus fouls.  Nash and Wade overtly carry and never get called.

The only difference I see is that Salvatore, Javie, and Joey Crawford crave more attention than the other officials and tend to take over the game.  But the officials as a whole call the games the same way.

I'd call it functional corruption.

[nba is the worst]

From FLCelticsFan on tonight's game thread:

Salvatore made one of the most controversial calls in NBA finals history in game 5 of the 2006 finals. The call basically gave the Heat their championship. Here is Bill Simmons' take on the call.

Salvatore called the foul on Wade's final drive in overtime (remember, the call where ABC couldn't find a replay to show that anyone touched him?) even though he was standing at midcourt a full 35-40 feet from the play, and even though two other refs were closer to the play. Not only was that NOT his call, he butchered it. (Wade's two makes were the winning margin).

But that's actually an example of the dysfunctional culture and not corruption because you see NBA refs calling bogus fouls from the other side of the court all the frickin' time.

Mike

Err - those were Wade's 24th and 25th ft attempts in that game and the 48th and 49th for the heat - a game that they won by 1 point.

The Mavs, who led in points in the paint, rebounds, etc, had 25 fts...

I say it DOES indicate corruption.

But my point is that we see that exact same call all the time in regular NBA games.  The ref who made that call wasn't doing anything different from other refs who call bogus fouls from the other side of the court hundreds of times during the regular season.  Corruption doesn't enter into it.

Mike

So you don't see the qty as a factor?

Alltime Finals records are not seen "hundreds of times".