We'll know if JO gets surgery or not on Tuesday

[Roy H.]

That to me is a problem with the player not the organization or medical staff. Maybe even from his teammates from not getting on him more. But seriously we've been listening to these excuses since pre-preseason. It's getting old.

When his knee is swelling, though, that's not all in his head, right?  That's something that is medically observable, and cause for concern.  It's not like he's faking it.

Also, keep in mind that one of the players the Celtics organization "called out" in the past was Big Al, for not recovering more quickly.  The team suggested that Big Al's injury was all in his head... only to find
that team doctors had misdiagnosed bone chips in his ankle. 

Sometimes, players know their own body, and it does more harm than good to push through injury.  Arguably, this is what happened with JO, when he played through obvious injuries with the Pacers, and it's likely that he's still feeling the effects of those decisions today.

I think that's an excellent point Roy. Somtimes I forget this is a business and that it's in the organizations best interest if they just push a player to play even if the players not ready. I like to think that the Celtics are above that type of greed and shortsightedness. But I know that it can be a reality in the NBA unquestionably. So I see your point and it's well taken. But from my perspective they gave him all the time in the world. He had more than enough time to get healthy. Why isn't he then? When I look at him I see that he looks overweight this year. Why is no one addressing that issue? Couldn't that affect his knee? Isn't it his job to be in shape and ready for the season? Take care of all issues in the offseason even preseason? Did he do that? No.. That's where the problem lies for me.

Also I don't know how to do quotes or show how to find that article but it hit the nail on the head for me. Doc called him out for all this stuff before the season even began. But then he shut up and took jermaines advice and didn't push it or him. It's effectively gotten us nowhere too.

I understand the frustration.  I just think a lot of people are too hard on JO; I don't think there's any medical evidence that he brought the injury upon himself.

A lot of people are saying he showed up in camp out of shape.  I'm not sure if that's true, but let's say it is.  Couldn't a large part of that be that he spent the off-season resting, rather than training hard and putting undo strain on his existing injuries?  I mean, if he'd trained hard all off-season and aggravated the injury, people would be criticizing him for that, right?

So, that's my first point.  The second one is, injuries happen.  Tony Allen is a hard-working, tough player.  He also had terrible luck with injuries almost his entire career here.  Bill Walton was another hard worker who just had bad luck and saw his body break down.  It's not only lazy guys or soft guys who end up sitting for large portions of their careers.  Sometimes, it just happens.

Lastly, I dispute the softness label.  I can't say if JO has ever milked an injury.  However, I do know that in both Miami and Indiana, he played through injuries to help his team in the playoffs.  He's saying he wants to do the same thing in Boston, and until proven otherwise, I'll trust him.

[GreenEnvy]

Sorry Roy I'm a big fan of yours but I've got to humbly disagree. To me Stephen Jackson Captain Jack Up A Shot is not the most credible source to me. People forget that it wasn't just Artest who entered the stands. This meatsack did as well. I can see them being close friends. And of course your gonna go to bat forva friend. That qoute tells me Captain Jack is loyal to a friend nothing else. I just don't buy it.

Look at his fat face. The loss of definition in his arms. The story to me is he drank and ate his way through the summer. Came into camp thinking he could play it off. Tweaked his knee possibly due to it. And still has not gotten on the court even though we gave him added time to rest and get healthy.

I say grow a pair earn your six mil and suck it up. Throw a brace on it. Take a cortisone shot if need be and be thankful you get to share a lockerroom with real warriors who dont cry to the media with sore knees.

This isn't Indiana this isn't Miami this isn't Toronto Portland or god knows wherever else he played. This is BOSTON. Don't insult our intelligence Jermaine. It's not a cakewalk. It's not a picnic. It's not time to rest on your laurels. The fans here pay attention and care. In Miami his last home they pass out fliers to
 tell their fans to show up and how to cheer. Sorry Jermaine that's not the case here. If you don't wanna get sizzled like Sundays bacon suit up! Otherwise the fans and media will turn on you. And I'll be leading the chorus of boos starting in the nosebleeds and reaching those oh so delicate ears of yours sitting courtside with your free seat watching a game you should be playing in and earning your money.

He does not look all that different than he did in Miami last season, or Toronto the year before. Does he look like he did in Indiana in the early 2000's? No. But that's what age does to most players. Shaq hasn't look like he has in LA since, well, when he was in LA.

The guy has flat out said if the surgery isn't going to all but guarantee it will rid his knee of pain for
good, he will play through it. What more do you want? He has gutted it out the past few weeks when perhaps his knee was originally mishandled by either the C's or his doctor in Miami.

If this isn't handled correctly now, it could affect not only this season, but next season as well (in addition to his life after basketball).

If he ignores the doctors and plays and it continues to get worse and worse to the point where he can't contribute at all, people will call him out for being arrogant and stubborn.

He doesn't look any different than he did last year in Miami? I could be wrong here but last I thought he averaged 14 and 7 for Miami and a block or so.. Somehow I doubt he's coming anywhere close to those averages this season. To me it's a night and day arguement. He came in fat out of shape and injured. There's no excuse for that to me sorry.

And as I've stated a few times or so we took the safe route with him. We didn't rush this guy at all. No pressure on Jermaine from day one. So how is that putting his health at risk in any way? I don't get it. To me the excuses need to end and he needs to play period.

I was referring to how he looked physically, as you mentioned his "fat face" lol. He was probably right around the same weight in training camp as he was the season before.

As for his stats, that obvious. First of all, it's obvious he hasn't been anywhere near close to healthy. And then you have to figure in he was Miami's 2nd or 3rd option on offense, and maybe their best rebounder.

This season, he is like their 8th option (and that's being generous) on offense and has players like KG around him grabbing boards. He wasn't getting nearly the burn with us has he did in Miami, for a myriad of reasons.

There's no doubt this guy wants to help this team win a championship, IMO. I'm sure the money surely helped, and the C's signing Shaq didn't thrill him entirely, but it seems like he has kept a good attitude throughout what is undoubtedly a frustrating injury for himself and the C's organization.

[CelticHooligan3]

I see your points guys. I really do. I just tend to disagree respectfully. If Jermaine rested all offseason as you said could have possibly happened then all the added rest he got during preseason and thus far should surely guarantee his health. I'm not a mathmatician but isn't that like around 8 months he's had to rest and get well? Isn't that a pretty long time?

As for the Tony Allen card that was brought up. I will say this. I was a huge Tony supporter cause I was a fan of his D from day one. So I stuck up for him through his antics shenanigans thuggishness as you like to call it Roy lol. Which I won't deny btw. And he turned his back on me Ainge his teammates and all his other supporters as far as I'm concerned.

He went through injury after injury which as you said is a part of the game and simply bad luck. Although the dunk attempt injury is certainly a bit of a grey area. But since we as fans and as an organization stuck by him through all his maladies I figured it wouldn't even be a question of if he would resign with us but when. Well the loyalty we showed him was by no means reciprocated. He was the anti-perk.

So it's just gone to show me that sympathy and patience somtimes are not rewarded in the long run.  So in fact you must demand more out of these guys. They need to be pushed by both fans and media alike. Just some mind you. Not all. But certainly some need the kick in the pants to motivate them. It looks like Doc himself tried this theory earlier in the year.

I'm not condoning rushing anyone back before they're healthy. And quite frankly think that's a bush league cowardly move by any organization. But that being said, with Jermaine I think we did the opposite. We gave him more than enough time to heal and get right. He's been eating ho hos, animal fat, twinkies, and drinking pure cream  from what I've seen of him. He looks very bloated and heavy. Loss of definition in the arms. Added a few chins. Tommy even commented a while back on it. Said somthing like you can always tell if a guys in shape by looking at his arms and chin. And laughed in reference to Jermaine when Gorman asked about it. Funny but sad.   

[LooseCannon]

I see your points guys. I really do. I just tend to disagree respectfully. If Jermaine rested all offseason as you said could have possibly happened then all the added rest he got during preseason and thus far should surely guarantee his health.

Your mistake is that you think there is a way to guarantee his health.  And, since you can't point to any specific moment when he was injured on the court, where he was hit or landed wrong, you assume that Jermaine O'Neal has to be to blame somehow for his woes.  It's natural to think that way.  Most people want to believe in a clear chain of cause and effect.  They want to believe in karma and just desserts.

But the world doesn't work that way.  We have a man whose body is breaking down.  He hasn't had a reported left knee injury since December 2008 before his current woes.  Maybe his knee looks like those of Brandon Roy's.  Maybe it's mainly due to abusing his body and sacrificing himself to the cause of basketball.

[CelticHooligan3]

I see your points guys. I really do. I just tend to disagree respectfully. If Jermaine rested all offseason as you said could have possibly happened then all the added rest he got during preseason and thus far should surely guarantee his health.

Your mistake is that you think there is a way to guarantee his health.  And, since you can't point to any specific moment when he was injured on the court, where he was hit or landed wrong, you assume that Jermaine O'Neal has to be to blame somehow for his woes.  It's natural to think that way.  Most people want to believe in a clear chain of cause and effect.  They want to believe in karma and just desserts.

But the world doesn't work that way.  We have a man whose body is breaking down.  He hasn't had a reported left knee injury since December 2008 before his current woes.  Maybe his knee looks like those of Brandon Roy's.  Maybe it's mainly due to abusing his body and sacrificing himself to the cause of
basketball.

I'm fully aware there no guarantee to his health loosecannon so that's a moot point. I'm just of the opinion that well over eight months of rest should have helped this case. We gave him the option of playing or resting he took the added rest route and it's done nothing for both parties apparently.

As for your assertion that he hasn't had knee problems since before 2008 your forgetting that it's been a chronic issue that he's complained about off and on his whole career. So if as he states he can't walk up stairs blah blah blah then why didn't he take care of it in the offseason? Your overlooking the fact he came into camp hurt. He hadn't even played at all for us yet. It's his job to get healthy by rest before the season or get a medical opinion so he could have had the surgery months ago so he'd be 100%. He struck out on both these things.

Now I'll address the fact that your of the opinion that he could have knees like Brandon Roys. That's a great theory and would certainly explain your point. One problem though. Our medical staff gave him a physical. Albeit a thorough one & didn't find any of the diagnoses you assumed. Also explain to me why Doc went out of his way to call JO out before the season began and said the stuff that flew in Miami Toronto and Indiana won't fly here? He called JOs bluff essentially. 

[LooseCannon]

I don't think this is a continuation of his injury at the end of last season, so I think he reported to camp in reasonable health.

[CelticHooligan3]

I don't think this is a continuation of his injury at the end of last season, so I think he reported to camp in reasonable health.

After Danny openly discussed Jermaines "effort" and implied there was a lack of it are you now willing to maybe change this above thought? Or to you did he still show up to camp in great shape and uninjured? Just wondering..

[Atzar]

I don't think this is a continuation of his injury at the end of last season, so I think he reported to camp in reasonable health.

After Danny openly discussed Jermaines "effort" and implied there was a lack of it are you now willing to maybe change this above thought? Or to you did he still show up to camp in great shape and uninjured? Just wondering..

I think you're misinterpreting Ainge's use of the word 'effort'.  I don't think Danny meant to imply that JO isn't trying, but rather that he just hasn't played well.  He thinks he'll play a lot better after the upcoming training.

[Fafnir]

I think Jermiane is just to going to have to deal with swelling and pain from here on out, no matter how much he trains/rehabs.

Hopefully he can settle into a solid 10-20 minute role later in the season and hold up through the playoffs if they manage it right.

[CelticHooligan3]

I don't think this is a continuation of his injury at the end of last season, so I think he reported to camp in reasonable health.

After Danny openly discussed Jermaines "effort" and implied there was a lack of it are you now willing to maybe change this above thought? Or to you did he still show up to camp in great shape and uninjured? Just wondering..

I think you're misinterpreting Ainge's use of the word 'effort'.  I don't think Danny meant to imply that JO isn't trying, but rather that he just hasn't played well.  He thinks he'll play a lot better after the upcoming
training.

I disagree. In the time he's actually been on the floor his defense has been top notch. His offensive game has struggled but that's expected from a guy who hasn't played much and was also in a slump for a large part of the tail end of last season. Defense is where you need effort to look and do some good. He's certainly done that in his limited time.

I think the lack of effort was him coming into camp in shape and also him getting healthy during all that extended time he's taken off. This is exactly the smoking gun I've been looking for and I'm
glad Ainge called him out for it.

As has been said Danny looked thoroughly frustrated at the press conference and I don't blame him. We gave this guy our MLE he gave us nothing. This guy is a fugazi tough guy. 100% fake sorry. And to all his apologists I hope you read a little more into that press conference. The writings on the wall.

[Jon]

I think this whole debate about whether this is JO's fault or not is rather pointless.  The simple fact remains: if we're playing Orlando in the playoffs and Shaq and Perk get into early foul trouble, no one is going to regret signing Jermaine O'Neal at that point.  

The situation right now sucks, whether his fault or not.  However, if he can give us 10 mpg come playoff time, it could go a long way.  

Also, don't sleep on the fact that he's the only shotblocking threat on this team besides KG that can actually hit a free throw.  That fact alone could be valuable in tight games where Baby gives up height and Perk and Shaq can't hit free throws.  

[CelticHooligan3]

I think Jermiane is just to going to have to deal with swelling and pain from here on out, no matter how much he trains/rehabs.

Hopefully he can settle into a solid 10-20 minute role later in the season and hold up through the playoffs if they manage it right.

I agree with this statement 100%. But I'll add that I think both the team and Jermaine knew this before. This is not breaking news. But he just choose to "rest" it. I think that's clear because all that rest did absolutley zero, zilch, nada, for him. JO choose to waste as much time as he possibly could this year for whatever reason. His fat face and the fact he went to doctor after doctor getting different opinons tells me that. He procrastinated as long as he possibly could in order to tell us and the team that he's exactly back to square one. He's in the same place he was in before we gave him all that time off.

[CelticHooligan3]

I think this whole debate about whether this is JO's fault or not is rather pointless.  The simple fact remains: if we're playing Orlando in the playoffs and Shaq and Perk get into early foul trouble, no one is going to regret signing Jermaine O'Neal at that point.  

The situation right now sucks, whether his fault or not.  However, if he can give us 10 mpg come playoff time, it could go a long way.  

Also, don't sleep on the fact that he's the only shotblocking threat on this team besides KG that can actually hit a free throw.  That fact alone could be valuable in tight games where Baby gives up height and Perk and Shaq can't hit free throws.  

These are excellent points Jon. And you've definatley come up with the silver lining to all this. But for me anyways it just doesn't sit well that he took our whole MLE came into camp out of shape and injured (remember he sat out preseason and complained if a back injury a hamstring injury an ankle injury and finally settled on the knee) and has just now told us he's gonna continue his rehab and not go under the knife. Some might call that stealing. I certainly would. Both ainge and doc have implied this is somthing he's been known to do. Sit out extended periods of time of time for injuries when he could either be playing (in pain as do many players) or could have had the surgery a while back say in the offseason.

I think guys like this are poisonous to a teams chemistry cause they're the weak link. Not giving the "effort" as ainge said, as everyone else. He sets a horrible example for the young guys and should be black listed as far as I'm concerned. I think the only reason ainge hasn't publicly slammed him more is the fact he's holding out hope and crossing his fingers that JO will give us so
thing anything this year. That's a guy holding an organization hostage and I don't appreciate it. I hope more people start to see him fir what he really is. A liar and a thief.

[Jon]

I think this whole debate about whether this is JO's fault or not is rather pointless.  The simple fact remains: if we're playing Orlando in the playoffs and Shaq and Perk get into early foul trouble, no one is going to regret signing Jermaine O'Neal at that point.  

The situation right now sucks, whether his fault or not.  However, if he can give us 10 mpg come playoff time, it could go a long way.  

Also, don't sleep on the fact that he's the only shotblocking threat on this team besides KG that can actually hit a free throw.  That fact alone could be valuable in tight games where Baby gives up height and Perk and Shaq can't hit free throws.  

These are excellent points Jon. And you've definatley come up with the silver lining to all this. But for me anyways it just doesn't sit well that he took our whole MLE came into camp out of shape and injured (remember he sat out preseason and complained if a back injury a hamstring injury an ankle injury and finally settled on the knee) and has just now told us he's gonna continue his rehab and not go under the knife. Some might call that stealing. I certainly would. Both ainge and doc have implied this is somthing he's been known to do. Sit out extended periods of time of time for injuries when he could either be playing (in pain as do many players) or could have had the surgery a while back say in the offseason.

I think guys like this are poisonous to a teams chemistry cause they're the weak link. Not giving the "effort" as ainge said, as everyone else. He sets a horrible example for the young guys and should be black listed as far as I'm concerned. I think the only reason ainge hasn't publicly slammed him more is the fact he's holding out hope and crossing his fingers that JO will give us so
thing anything this year. That's a guy holding an organization hostage and I don't appreciate it. I hope more people start to see him fir what he really is. A liar and a thief.

If the team can recover from Rasheed Wallace consciously making an effort NOT to make an effort during the regular season last year, I think they can recover from JO.  For all the negative talk about him, he does try on the defensive end.  Furthermore, for a guy who is supposedly eating twinkies during his time off, he looks surprisingly thin.

Also, who is he setting a bad example for?  We're a team full of veterans who won't blink an eye when he steps back on the court.  

You're right that it's not fair from a real world perspective, but when you start applying real world standards to professional sports, all you're going to do is enormously disappoint yourself. 

[JBone4eva]

I see your points guys. I really do. I just tend to disagree respectfully. If Jermaine rested all offseason as you said could have possibly happened then all the added rest he got during preseason and thus far should surely guarantee his health. I'm not a mathmatician but isn't that like around 8 months he's had to rest and get well? Isn't that a pretty long time?

As for the Tony Allen card that was brought up. I will say this. I was a huge Tony supporter cause I was a fan of his D from day one. So I stuck up for him through his antics shenanigans thuggishness as you like to call it Roy lol. Which I won't deny btw. And he turned his back on me Ainge his teammates and all his other supporters as far as I'm concerned.

He went through injury after injury which as you said is a part of the game and simply bad luck. Although the dunk attempt injury is certainly a bit of a grey area. But since we as fans and as an organization stuck by him through all his maladies I figured it wouldn't even be a question of if he would resign with us but when. Well the loyalty we showed him was by no means reciprocated. He was the anti-perk.

So it's just gone to show me that sympathy and patience somtimes are not rewarded in the long run.  So in fact you must demand more out of these guys. They need to be pushed by both fans and media alike. Just some mind you. Not all. But certainly some need the kick in the pants to motivate them. It looks like Doc himself tried this theory earlier in the year.

I'm not condoning rushing anyone back before they're healthy. And quite frankly think that's a bush league cowardly move by any organization. But that being said, with Jermaine I think we did the opposite. We gave him more than enough time to heal and get right. He's been eating ho hos, animal fat, twinkies, and drinking pure cream  from what I've seen of him. He looks very bloated and heavy. Loss of definition in the arms. Added a few chins. Tommy even commented a while back on it. Said somthing like you can always tell if a guys in shape by looking at his arms and chin. And laughed in reference to Jermaine when Gorman asked about it. Funny but sad.   

Thats a huge speculation that the man has been eating "ho ho's" and "pure ice cream", bit unnecessary.  In my opinion JO honestly looks the same he looked in his final year in Indy, as well as his stints in Toronto, and Miami.  He's obviously not in the same shape we was in his prime in indy, but most players seldom are.

It sounds like you're taking out your frustrations from Tony Allen moving on and projecting it on JO.  Claiming that "we must demand more from these guys" makes you sound like a bit like the same bush league GMs you spoke negatively about.

I have to agree with Roy, I feel people are being too tough on JO.  Its really easy to sit behind a computer and tell a player to nut up, take a shot and throw a brace on.  Or try and equate what you consider a similar injury by another player or yourself to his, but the truth is we have no idea what he pain he's experiencing, and to what degree.  So its really out of any of our place to speculate on it.  He's already done the whole shoot up and play routine, he's obviously paying for it now.

I def understand your frustration Hooligan but unfortunately there's no set timetable to "get right" especially when you're dealing with a player who's played through very serious leg injuries for years. I also think you're over simplifying leg injuries claiming that his knee simply "hurts" and comparing it to Bird and Chief's knees "hurting", its not that simple. 

We heard what Danny said last night, the mans playing with no cartilage in his knee, something he's dealt with for few seasons.  He actively moves his leg around, the bone/bone tension causes swelling.  Its something he's going to have to deal with his entire life, including his tenure as a Celtic.  I'm quite sure Danny and the organization were well aware of this with his physical, and hoped he could manage it like he has in the past prior to his signing.  But its looking like age and injury aren't allowing that.  After rehab I honestly expect 12-18 mins a game immediately prior to and during the playoffs, I just think thats the cards we've been dealt.  I'd be happily surprised if we got more.

sorry that was a bit verbose, but egregious speculations from unknowing onlookers frustrates me.  Don't get it confused, I'm by no means an avid JO apologist, but lets be somewhat objective and understand that we're dealing with people.

*waits for the "JO, is that you?" reply* lol