Melo and the integrity of free agency

[indeedproceed]

Isn’t this all just more complicated than it needs to be?

Couldn’t Carmelo just say and do nothing, sign no extension with any team, and still sign with New York in the summer?  Why would he need to leak anonymous sources?

Also couldn’t Carmelo just tell New York while they’re making their pitch to sign him that in order for him to sign he wants a commitment from them to keep Amare but also make a run at another free agent next summer too? 

I guess I’m not really sure where all the tampering and anonymous source leaks needs to come in. 

Well, the anon sources is whats going on, so that's what I went with.

I guess the biggest and most significant thing is that if Melo just did and said nothing, then NY would have no guarantee that he comes there in the summer, so maybe they'd be more bold about their actions.

If Melo let them know that his intention was to sign there, and he wouldn't sign anyone else's extension, NY would back off and retain its assets to pursue another big name later, which would benefit Melo greatly.

But that would be tampering.

On top of all that, Melo really wants to sign an extension on the current CBA, and to do that and still go to NY, NY needs to trade for him, because they need to use Eddy Curry's expiring contact (long story short, they won't have max contract money in the offseason as defined under the current CBA) and filler to make the deal.

So if Carmelo says nothing, he might actually cause something he doesn't want.

[greg683x]

the nba needs to adopt some of the discipline that the NCAA hands down to schools for breaking rules.  taking away draft picks for a franchise that just put together a super team, seems more like a slap on the wrist.

can you imagine if the NBA caught the Heat or the Knicks tampering and they got banned from the playoffs for three years.

[Finkelskyhook]

the nba needs to adopt some of the discipline that the NCAA hands down to schools for breaking rules.  taking away draft picks for a franchise that just put together a super team, seems more like a slap on the wrist.

can you imagine if the NBA caught the Heat or the Knicks tampering and they got banned from the playoffs for three years.

That's a great thought but not Stern's style.  He generally tweaks (dress code...meaningless instant replay) but doesn't rock the boat.  Particularly with his superstars or big-market franchises.  Every action seems based on ratings.  Stern is Bud Selig with about 10 times the IQ.

The hardest Stern has come down on anybody concerning the integrity of the NBA has been to Jeff Van Gundy for stating the obvious about NBA officiating.  He hasn't taken any actions for people doing the obvious.  Whether it's NBA star-biased officiating or the ridiculous overt tampering going on.

He essentially sanctions it with his inaction.

[Tai]

As things stand, we have a situation where everyone knows that NY is the only hope if Denver wants to make a trade. This in itself is not a problem so long as neither Melo nor NY orchestrated the release of information. Even if Melo did orchestrate it all, I'm not sure we could ever get evidence sufficient for a penalty (I would expect the penalty to be fining the player, barring the player from signing with the preferred team, but no other penalty to the team).

Is it possible to prevent players from flouting tampering rules?

If Anthony's desire was to go to a smaller market team, I think there would be some kind of Stern intervention.  He wants to go to New York.  If anything, Stern would help facilitate such a move behind the scenes.

I have to be honest; I don't know if you're joking or not. Assuming you aren't, do you have proof he would do this or does it just "fit" your perception of him? I'm essentially being asked to assume he'd want Carmelo in NY too, and while that makes sense, for all I know he'd rather have every team have a legit franchise as opposed to all the superstars situated in only the high market teams.

[guava_wrench]

IP has done a great job elaborating on my point.

I believe that it is the player's right to go where he wants, but that he should not be allowed to covertly communicate the message to another team "don't trade for me because I will go there anyway" when he is property of another team. The only reason why I think this is off limits is because there are already tampering rules in the name of fair play.

Denver has no chance to do anything if the message "don't waste assets to get me -- just wait until my free agency" is already out there. I fully support Melo in his rejection of the offer of extending his contract to go to a team that he isn't interested in. I also do not condemn Melo for any difficulty in being tight-lipped due to the constant prying of reporters.

But there is a potentially big competition problem with players who are under contract purposefully undermining their value to the contract holder. I am not saying that Melo intends or intended to do this. But it is another angle to this situation that I hadn't really thought about when supporting Melo's decision in past threads.

[guava_wrench]

As things stand, we have a situation where everyone knows that NY is the only hope if Denver wants to make a trade. This in itself is not a problem so long as neither Melo nor NY orchestrated the release of information. Even if Melo did orchestrate it all, I'm not sure we could ever get evidence sufficient for a penalty (I would expect the penalty to be fining the player, barring the player from signing with the preferred team, but no other penalty to the team).

Is it possible to prevent players from flouting tampering rules?

If Anthony's desire was to go to a smaller market team, I think there would be some kind of Stern intervention.  He wants to go to New York.  If anything, Stern would help facilitate such a move behind the scenes.

I have to be honest; I don't know if you're joking or not. Assuming you aren't, do you have proof he would do this or does it just "fit" your perception of him? I'm essentially being asked to assume he'd want Carmelo in NY too, and while that makes sense, for all I know he'd rather have every team have a legit franchise as opposed to all the superstars situated in only the high market teams.

I think this might be one of those "don't feed the trolls" situations.

The fact of the matter is that there is almost never tampering penalties because of how hard it is to prove anything. The worst that happens is front office guys get fines for making comments about amateur players or about players under contract with other teams when the comments are part of the public record.

There isn't much that can be done about leaks.

[pearljammer10]

Yeah I see nothing wron with Melo saying I dont want to sign a contract in NJ, or I want to play in New York, or I want to stay in Denver... Wherever he wants to go, he wants to go, its his decision and I feel like he has ever right to express that.

I think you're missing the point of the OP here.

In the OP's scenario (and actually what is happening) here is a possible series of events:

March 2011:By anon source to ESPN: Carmelo Anthony would sign in NY for less than the max contract as long as NY has room for another top tier player

March 2011-By anon source to ESPN: The Knicks are exploring trades to create the cap room Carmelo is demanding be available for another top tier player. They only hope Carmelo will block any and all trades by the Nuggets by refusing to sign any contract extension.

April 2011-By anon source to ESPN: Carmelo would ideally like to play with Chris Paul in New York, along with Amar'e Stoudemire.

May 2011-By Anon source to ESPN: Chris Paul would love to go to New York after his contract expires in 2012. He's told sources close to him he won't sign any extension, and would sign for less than the maximum as long as NY came close, and also had Carmelo Anthony and Amar'e.

May 2011-By anon source: Carmelo would also sign at less than the maximum if it meant getting Chris Paul to NY.

June 2011-By anon source: New York anticipates having the cap room needed to sign both Carmelo Anthony and Chris Paul in the next two years, so it has told GM Donnie Walsh that all contract extensions beyond the summer of 2012 should be put on hold.

July 2011- Carmelo Anthony signs in New York for less than the maximum, stating 'I'm saving a little bit for my man Chris Paul!'

That is tampering, plain and simple.

Yeah and all the anon sources could be completely fabricating anything going on... If Melo gets hit for "tampering" how could James, Bosh, and Wade not?

[Finkelskyhook]

As things stand, we have a situation where everyone knows that NY is the only hope if Denver wants to make a trade. This in itself is not a problem so long as neither Melo nor NY orchestrated the release of information. Even if Melo did orchestrate it all, I'm not sure we could ever get evidence sufficient for a penalty (I would expect the penalty to be fining the player, barring the player from signing with the preferred team, but no other penalty to the team).

Is it possible to prevent players from flouting tampering rules?

If Anthony's desire was to go to a smaller market team, I think there would be some kind of Stern intervention.  He wants to go to New York.  If anything, Stern would help facilitate such a move behind the scenes.

I have to be honest; I don't know if you're joking or not. Assuming you aren't, do you have proof he would do this or does it just "fit" your perception of him? I'm essentially being asked to assume he'd want Carmelo in NY too, and while that makes sense, for all I know he'd rather have every team have a legit franchise as opposed to all the superstars situated in only the high market teams.

I think this might be one of those "don't feed the trolls" situations.

The fact of the matter is that there is almost never tampering penalties because of how hard it is to prove anything. The worst that happens is front office guys get fines for making comments about amateur players or about players under contract with other teams when the comments are part of the public record.

There isn't much that can be done about leaks.

Guava, you can take your troll comment and put it where the sun doesn't shine.

As I stated earlier in this thread:
As is usually the case, Stern would make an example out of third tier player, a big name player at the tail end of their career,  or a small market team management person before he'd mess with a superstar.[/b

  
I essentially said the same thing you did.  But I wouldn't call you a troll.  If Stern wanted to rock the boat, the source of the leak would be found and the tampering substantiated.  It is my opinion, based on what I see during the games concerning officiating and what I read that Stern doesn't rock the boat unless he sees that it affects profits.  He runs the NBA like a freaking dictator.  You don't think he's capable of finding the source of a leak and substantiating it?

[guava_wrench]

As things stand, we have a situation where everyone knows that NY is the only hope if Denver wants to make a trade. This in itself is not a problem so long as neither Melo nor NY orchestrated the release of information. Even if Melo did orchestrate it all, I'm not sure we could ever get evidence sufficient for a penalty (I would expect the penalty to be fining the player, barring the player from signing with the preferred team, but no other penalty to the team).

Is it possible to prevent players from flouting tampering rules?

If Anthony's desire was to go to a smaller market team, I think there would be some kind of Stern intervention.  He wants to go to New York.  If anything, Stern would help facilitate such a move behind the scenes.

I have to be honest; I don't know if you're joking or not. Assuming you aren't, do you have proof he would do this or does it just "fit" your perception of him? I'm essentially being asked to assume he'd want Carmelo in NY too, and while that makes sense, for all I know he'd rather have every team have a legit franchise as opposed to all the superstars situated in only the high market teams.

I think this might be one of those "don't feed the trolls" situations.

The fact of the matter is that there is almost never tampering penalties because of how hard it is to prove anything. The worst that happens is front office guys get fines for making comments about amateur players or about players under contract with other teams when the comments are part of the public record.

There isn't much that can be done about leaks.

Guava, you can take your troll comment and put it where the sun doesn't shine.

As I stated earlier in this thread:
As is usually the case, Stern would make an example out of third tier player, a big name player at the tail end of their career,  or a small market team management person before he'd mess with a superstar.[/b

  
I essentially said the same thing you did.  But I wouldn't call you a troll.  If Stern wanted to rock the boat, the source of the leak would be found and the tampering substantiated.  It is my opinion, based on what I see during the games concerning officiating and what I read that Stern doesn't rock the boat unless he sees that it affects profits.  He runs the NBA like a freaking dictator.  You don't think he's capable of finding the source of a leak and substantiating it?

Sorry about the troll comment.

So who are the third tier players you talk about in your speculations? Who is the 'big name player at the tail end of their career' you are referring to?

Do you have any actual events to point to in support of your accusations?

[dpaps]

As things stand, we have a situation where everyone knows that NY is the only hope if Denver wants to make a trade. This in itself is not a problem so long as neither Melo nor NY orchestrated the release of information. Even if Melo did orchestrate it all, I'm not sure we could ever get evidence sufficient for a penalty (I would expect the penalty to be fining the player, barring the player from signing with the preferred team, but no other penalty to the team).

Is it possible to prevent players from flouting tampering rules?

If Anthony's desire was to go to a smaller market team, I think there would be some kind of Stern intervention.  He wants to go to New York.  If anything, Stern would help facilitate such a move behind the scenes.

I have to be honest; I don't know if you're joking or not. Assuming you aren't, do you have proof he would do this or does it just "fit" your perception of him? I'm essentially being asked to assume he'd want Carmelo in NY too, and while that makes sense, for all I know he'd rather have every team have a legit franchise as opposed to all the superstars situated in only the high market teams.

I think this might be one of those "don't feed the trolls" situations.

The fact of the matter is that there is almost never tampering penalties because of how hard it is to prove anything. The worst that happens is front office guys get fines for making comments about amateur players or about players under contract with other teams when the comments are part of the public record.

There isn't much that can be done about leaks.

Guava, you can take your troll comment and put it where the sun doesn't shine.

As I stated earlier in this thread:
As is usually the case, Stern would make an example out of third tier player, a big name player at the tail end of their career,  or a small market team management person before he'd mess with a superstar.[/b

  
I essentially said the same thing you did.  But I wouldn't call you a troll.  If Stern wanted to rock the boat, the source of the leak would be found and the tampering substantiated.  It is my opinion, based on what I see during the games concerning officiating and what I read that Stern doesn't rock the boat unless he sees that it affects profits.  He runs the NBA like a freaking dictator.  You don't think he's capable of finding the source of a leak and substantiating it?

Sorry about the troll comment.

So who are the third tier players you talk about in your speculations? Who is the 'big name player at the tail end of their career' you are referring to?

Do you have any actual events to point to in support of your accusations?

And what do you actually know about Stern and the decisions he makes? Everything you think you "know" are just assumptions. Conspiracy theories.

[guava_wrench]

As things stand, we have a situation where everyone knows that NY is the only hope if Denver wants to make a trade. This in itself is not a problem so long as neither Melo nor NY orchestrated the release of information. Even if Melo did orchestrate it all, I'm not sure we could ever get evidence sufficient for a penalty (I would expect the penalty to be fining the player, barring the player from signing with the preferred team, but no other penalty to the team).

Is it possible to prevent players from flouting tampering rules?

If Anthony's desire was to go to a smaller market team, I think there would be some kind of Stern intervention.  He wants to go to New York.  If anything, Stern would help facilitate such a move behind the scenes.

I have to be honest; I don't know if you're joking or not. Assuming you aren't, do you have proof he would do this or does it just "fit" your perception of him? I'm essentially being asked to assume he'd want Carmelo in NY too, and while that makes sense, for all I know he'd rather have every team have a legit franchise as opposed to all the superstars situated in only the high market teams.

I think this might be one of those "don't feed the trolls" situations.

The fact of the matter is that there is almost never tampering penalties because of how hard it is to prove anything. The worst that happens is front office guys get fines for making comments about amateur players or about players under contract with other teams when the comments are part of the public record.

There isn't much that can be done about leaks.

Guava, you can take your troll comment and put it where the sun doesn't shine.

As I stated earlier in this thread:
As is usually the case, Stern would make an example out of third tier player, a big name player at the tail end of their career,  or a small market team management person before he'd mess with a superstar.[/b

 
I essentially said the same thing you did.  But I wouldn't call you a troll.  If Stern wanted to rock the boat, the source of the leak would be found and the tampering substantiated.  It is my opinion, based on what I see during the games concerning officiating and what I read that Stern doesn't rock the boat unless he sees that it affects profits.  He runs the NBA like a freaking dictator.  You don't think he's capable of finding the source of a leak and substantiating it?

Sorry about the troll comment.

So who are the third tier players you talk about in your speculations? Who is the 'big name player at the tail end of their career' you are referring to?

Do you have any actual events to point to in support of your accusations?

And what do you actually know about Stern and the decisions he makes? Everything you think you "know" are just assumptions. Conspiracy theories.

Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence.

My assumption is that I should not accept off-the-wall claims without evidence. I am aware that this is just my assumption, but it seems like a good one to me.

[Finkelskyhook]

Thanks, Guava.

All of us here have our own theories.

I watch just like you do.  Primarily I watch the C's.  About the only other team I watch semi-consistently is the Lakers because while I root against Kobe, I think he's simply the best player and the hardest competitor in the game.  The officiating makes watching other stars in the NBA virtually unwatchable to me.  

My examples of big name players who are at the end of their careers used as examples in general:  Ironically both Celtics.  Last year Sheed.  This year Shaq.  Both were fined heavily (I could care less how much they make.  30000+ is a lot of freaking money)  Disregard for a moment that both Sheed and Shaq was exactly correct in what they said.  In the same game the officials were literally begging Howard, who was mocking the officials, to knock it off to keep him in the game.  They gave Pierce a trip and a half down the court making messiahesque protests and gestures before T'ing him up.  Speaking of the messiah, how have those no histrionic rules affected him?    Meanwhile, Sheed gets fined $30000 for stating that (lol) Turkododo obviously flops.  How Stern handled the Jeff VanGundy (small market, smaller name coach) situation and how he handles Phil Jackson are 180 degrees different.  How he handles Mark Cuban (small market) and how he handled the far more scandalous stuff going on during the Isiah Thomas days in New York, (which, IMHO, did far more damage to the image of the NBA) are 180 degrees different.

I don't know that there's a dispute that as essentially the CEO of the NBA, Stern's job is to grow the product.  While I see Stern as a complete sleazeball, I think he's a brilliant CEO.  The product continues to grow.  I think he ignores the obvious (tampering, the Donaghy situation) because it doesn't appear to hurt the product.

I think he'll use the Shaq/Sheed/VanGundy example if he ever sees tampering as an issue.  He'll try to make the biggest possible splash while doing the least amount of damage to the product.  His history is to protect stars and bigger markets.

When I questioned your theory, Guava, that tampering is so hard to prove....My theory goes back to the Donaghy situation and how quickly the major NBA and sports channels (particularly ESPN) moved to demonize Donaghy and shield the NBA.  Not to mention how quickly such a huge scandal was swept under the rug by ESPN and TNT...Other than to keep us posted on Donaghy's exclusive guilt.  If you don't think, after that, that with the kind of influence, (again, IMHO) the NBA appears to have over these outlets that these outlets are incapable of helping the commissioner uncover the source of a leak...Well, we'll have to agree to disagree.  

That's why I believe stars like Anthony will be able to manipulate their own deals overtly.  Particularly if that overtness ultimately lands him in the biggest market in the world.


That's my theory.

[Edgar]

[indeedproceed]

Yeah I see nothing wron with Melo saying I dont want to sign a contract in NJ, or I want to play in New York, or I want to stay in Denver... Wherever he wants to go, he wants to go, its his decision and I feel like he has ever right to express that.

I think you're missing the point of the OP here.

In the OP's scenario (and actually what is happening) here is a possible series of events:

March 2011:By anon source to ESPN: Carmelo Anthony would sign in NY for less than the max contract as long as NY has room for another top tier player

March 2011-By anon source to ESPN: The Knicks are exploring trades to create the cap room Carmelo is demanding be available for another top tier player. They only hope Carmelo will block any and all trades by the Nuggets by refusing to sign any contract extension.

April 2011-By anon source to ESPN: Carmelo would ideally like to play with Chris Paul in New York, along with Amar'e Stoudemire.

May 2011-By Anon source to ESPN: Chris Paul would love to go to New York after his contract expires in 2012. He's told sources close to him he won't sign any extension, and would sign for less than the maximum as long as NY came close, and also had Carmelo Anthony and Amar'e.

May 2011-By anon source: Carmelo would also sign at less than the maximum if it meant getting Chris Paul to NY.

June 2011-By anon source: New York anticipates having the cap room needed to sign both Carmelo Anthony and Chris Paul in the next two years, so it has told GM Donnie Walsh that all contract extensions beyond the summer of 2012 should be put on hold.

July 2011- Carmelo Anthony signs in New York for less than the maximum, stating 'I'm saving a little bit for my man Chris Paul!'

That is tampering, plain and simple.

Yeah and all the anon sources could be completely fabricating anything going on... If Melo gets hit for "tampering" how could James, Bosh, and Wade not?

They should be. And so should Paul Pierce and Ray Allen. And so should Kevin Garnett. And Sheed Wallace.

That's where we are now. WIth no solid way to prove whether or not someone is tampering, the NBA is just letting the players run wild.

[Who]

I don't see any problems with Melo's actions. In fact, I'd prefer him to be more hands on in this process and drive the negotiations to where he wants to be.

No issues with 2010 Free Agency either.