Author Topic: Peter Vecsey: The Celtics turned their back on Clifford Ray  (Read 21696 times)

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Re: Peter Vecsey: The Celtics turned their back on Clifford Ray
« Reply #45 on: January 06, 2011, 09:34:50 PM »

Offline Eja117

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I'm not sure I get PV's point.  He's saying the Celts should have let Ray go at the start of the offseason so he could find another job?   

But instead they give him 100K, free medical care, and a whole season and a whole offseason to find a job. Plus it's a free market. He could have looked for another job at any time anyway.

Also doesn't an employee have a responsibility to take some reasonable precautions? I mean every other employee didn't have this problem, but somehow Ray gets it so bad he almost has to be amputated?

Plus how does he know the Celts weren't hoping he'd recover and that's why they didn't fire him immediately, then agreed to pay all his med bills and gave him 100K.

To sue you need to show damages. I'm not sure I really see them here.


Re: Peter Vecsey: The Celtics turned their back on Clifford Ray
« Reply #46 on: January 07, 2011, 12:23:51 AM »

Offline winsomme

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I don't think I'd call a guy a charity case if he almost lost his foot due to something that happened to him on the job....

Well, what would you call him in that situation?  I mean, isn't that the definition of a charity case, giving money to somebody who can't earn it because you feel badly for their current situation?

It sucks that Ray isn't here anymore, and that he's having some foot issues, but in the NBA you have to perform physically, even as a coach.  If he couldn't do so, I can't blame the Celtics for letting him go. 

But can you blame the Celtics for causing the ailment that lead to his dismissal? I think that's the point winsomme was trying to make.

Probably, since the MRSA shouldn't have happened.  However, what's the remedy?  The Celtics gave him $100k and free medical.  He signed the release.  He had the option of suing, and declined. 

Should the Celtics just keep paying him ad infinitum?

Well I'll tell you what they shouldn't have done....forced him into a take it or leave it situation when the reason for not being able to perform the job happened working for them...and working quite well for that matter...

Again, I don't what the whole story is, but if what is being reported has legs, then they should rectify it.

Re: Peter Vecsey: The Celtics turned their back on Clifford Ray
« Reply #47 on: January 07, 2011, 12:30:17 AM »

Offline winsomme

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I don't think I'd call a guy a charity case if he almost lost his foot due to something that happened to him on the job....

Well, what would you call him in that situation?  I mean, isn't that the definition of a charity case, giving money to somebody who can't earn it because you feel badly for their current situation?

It sucks that Ray isn't here anymore, and that he's having some foot issues, but in the NBA you have to perform physically, even as a coach.  If he couldn't do so, I can't blame the Celtics for letting him go. 
I agree completely.  It's unfortunate, but it's just part of the job description and it sounds like Danny and Doc just could not justify keeping him on with the very limited amount he could do going forward.

It's sad, but it's reality.  Vecsey should shut his hole.

Reporters reporting information that is trying to be kept quiet because it makes someone look bad is exactly what is required of investigative journalism.

If you're saying the info is wrong, that is one thing. But saying the story should be squelched is not at all how things should happen IMO...

Re: Peter Vecsey: The Celtics turned their back on Clifford Ray
« Reply #48 on: January 07, 2011, 12:36:30 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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I don't think I'd call a guy a charity case if he almost lost his foot due to something that happened to him on the job....

Well, what would you call him in that situation?  I mean, isn't that the definition of a charity case, giving money to somebody who can't earn it because you feel badly for their current situation?

It sucks that Ray isn't here anymore, and that he's having some foot issues, but in the NBA you have to perform physically, even as a coach.  If he couldn't do so, I can't blame the Celtics for letting him go. 

But can you blame the Celtics for causing the ailment that lead to his dismissal? I think that's the point winsomme was trying to make.

Probably, since the MRSA shouldn't have happened.  However, what's the remedy?  The Celtics gave him $100k and free medical.  He signed the release.  He had the option of suing, and declined. 

Should the Celtics just keep paying him ad infinitum?

Well I'll tell you what they shouldn't have done....forced him into a take it or leave it situation when the reason for not being able to perform the job happened working for them...and working quite well for that matter...

Again, I don't what the whole story is, but if what is being reported has legs, then they should rectify it.
In the end doesn't every negotiation over a settlement come down to a take it or leave it moment?

Re: Peter Vecsey: The Celtics turned their back on Clifford Ray
« Reply #49 on: January 07, 2011, 07:40:41 AM »

Online Roy H.

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I don't think I'd call a guy a charity case if he almost lost his foot due to something that happened to him on the job....

Well, what would you call him in that situation?  I mean, isn't that the definition of a charity case, giving money to somebody who can't earn it because you feel badly for their current situation?

It sucks that Ray isn't here anymore, and that he's having some foot issues, but in the NBA you have to perform physically, even as a coach.  If he couldn't do so, I can't blame the Celtics for letting him go. 

But can you blame the Celtics for causing the ailment that lead to his dismissal? I think that's the point winsomme was trying to make.

Probably, since the MRSA shouldn't have happened.  However, what's the remedy?  The Celtics gave him $100k and free medical.  He signed the release.  He had the option of suing, and declined. 

Should the Celtics just keep paying him ad infinitum?

Well I'll tell you what they shouldn't have done....forced him into a take it or leave it situation when the reason for not being able to perform the job happened working for them...and working quite well for that matter...

Again, I don't what the whole story is, but if what is being reported has legs, then they should rectify it.
In the end doesn't every negotiation over a settlement come down to a take it or leave it moment?

Yeah, exactly.  And the Celtics think they *did* rectify it, by giving him a fairly large cash settlement and health care.  Plus, Ray has the right to work for somebody else.

As I understand the facts, Ray's contract was expired, and they didn't ask him back.  He was basically a free agent that the team declined to re-sign.  He was physically unable to perform, and in settlement of any claims related to the MRSA, Ray got $100k + medical care.  That's pretty open and shut.  I know some people would like to see the Celtics give Ray a job for life in public relations or something, out of some feeling of guilt or loyalty.  Fine, but that's called "charity", and it's certainly not an obligation.

By the way, does anybody know anything about MRSA?  Is it possible to be exposed to it in 2006, and then almost lose your foot in 2009 / 2010?  Does it hibernate?  Or is that a situation where you have a long term issue and just aren't taking care of it?  The whole thing sounds very strange.


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Re: Peter Vecsey: The Celtics turned their back on Clifford Ray
« Reply #50 on: January 07, 2011, 08:57:56 AM »

Offline screwedupmaniac

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Wow...I've been reading too much celticsblog again. I had a dream last night that I had the chance to meet Peter Vecsey, and asked him what his issue with the Celtics was, and who gave him the information on Clifford Ray. Just thought I'd randomly throw that in there.

The fact of the matter is, we're not playing out a pointless season like the Cavs, so we can't be throwing out jobs to people just for the sake of being charitable. If the coaching bench is full, and Doc thinks he is getting to the point of not being healthy enough to be of any use in practice or during games, then he has no business having a job with us anyways. It's all about results when it comes to a job as important as being one of the assistant coaches on the Boston Celtics. If Clifford can still perform, he'll get another job elsewhere.

Re: Peter Vecsey: The Celtics turned their back on Clifford Ray
« Reply #51 on: January 07, 2011, 09:21:26 AM »

Offline Eja117

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I don't think I'd call a guy a charity case if he almost lost his foot due to something that happened to him on the job....

Well, what would you call him in that situation?  I mean, isn't that the definition of a charity case, giving money to somebody who can't earn it because you feel badly for their current situation?

It sucks that Ray isn't here anymore, and that he's having some foot issues, but in the NBA you have to perform physically, even as a coach.  If he couldn't do so, I can't blame the Celtics for letting him go. 
I agree completely.  It's unfortunate, but it's just part of the job description and it sounds like Danny and Doc just could not justify keeping him on with the very limited amount he could do going forward.

It's sad, but it's reality.  Vecsey should shut his hole.

Reporters reporting information that is trying to be kept quiet because it makes someone look bad is exactly what is required of investigative journalism.

If you're saying the info is wrong, that is one thing. But saying the story should be squelched is not at all how things should happen IMO...
But then I want sources. Otherwise it's speculative or made up.

Re: Peter Vecsey: The Celtics turned their back on Clifford Ray
« Reply #52 on: January 07, 2011, 09:37:22 AM »

Offline Chris

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I don't think I'd call a guy a charity case if he almost lost his foot due to something that happened to him on the job....

Well, what would you call him in that situation?  I mean, isn't that the definition of a charity case, giving money to somebody who can't earn it because you feel badly for their current situation?

It sucks that Ray isn't here anymore, and that he's having some foot issues, but in the NBA you have to perform physically, even as a coach.  If he couldn't do so, I can't blame the Celtics for letting him go. 

But can you blame the Celtics for causing the ailment that lead to his dismissal? I think that's the point winsomme was trying to make.

Probably, since the MRSA shouldn't have happened.  However, what's the remedy?  The Celtics gave him $100k and free medical.  He signed the release.  He had the option of suing, and declined. 

Should the Celtics just keep paying him ad infinitum?

Well I'll tell you what they shouldn't have done....forced him into a take it or leave it situation when the reason for not being able to perform the job happened working for them...and working quite well for that matter...

Again, I don't what the whole story is, but if what is being reported has legs, then they should rectify it.
In the end doesn't every negotiation over a settlement come down to a take it or leave it moment?

Yeah, exactly.  And the Celtics think they *did* rectify it, by giving him a fairly large cash settlement and health care.  Plus, Ray has the right to work for somebody else.

As I understand the facts, Ray's contract was expired, and they didn't ask him back.  He was basically a free agent that the team declined to re-sign.  He was physically unable to perform, and in settlement of any claims related to the MRSA, Ray got $100k + medical care.  That's pretty open and shut.  I know some people would like to see the Celtics give Ray a job for life in public relations or something, out of some feeling of guilt or loyalty.  Fine, but that's called "charity", and it's certainly not an obligation.

Yeah, and I think the injury and settlement, and the choice to not give him a new contract are not linked as much as Vecsey wants to make it seem.

The fact that they did wait so long to let him know they were not going to retain him tells me they had intentions on keeping him on.  They only let him go when another contractual obligation forced them to fill his role on the coaching staff with someone else.  That doesn't sound to me like they didn't bring him back because of his leg, it sounds like he was simply replaced at the end of his contract.

Now, the settlement on the other hand sounds like it was some sort of workers comp type thing.  In that situation, Ray had the right to sue for damages and medical coverage for an injury that occured on the job.  But (like in many cases), they decided to avoid court, and come up with a very reasonable settlement.

Again, I also think the claim that the Celtics strung him along is ridiculous.  He was not under contract.  He was free to go and look for other jobs.  Unless Doc or Danny told him that he had a job, and he was just waiting for the paperwork (which does not seem to be the case), I don't blame the C's for this.  This is part of being an independent contractor.  Unless you are under contract, you can never assume you have a job, and you are taking a big risk by waiting around on one job if there are other opportunities.

Re: Peter Vecsey: The Celtics turned their back on Clifford Ray
« Reply #53 on: January 07, 2011, 09:42:41 AM »

Offline Eja117

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So basically PV's big problem is that Ray got the best severance package of all time (excluding some of the corporate CEO stuff on Wal-Street and the sweet deal former US presidents get. And when NFL/college coaches get fired and they still get their last year).

Re: Peter Vecsey: The Celtics turned their back on Clifford Ray
« Reply #54 on: January 08, 2011, 12:53:37 AM »

Offline winsomme

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I don't think I'd call a guy a charity case if he almost lost his foot due to something that happened to him on the job....

Well, what would you call him in that situation?  I mean, isn't that the definition of a charity case, giving money to somebody who can't earn it because you feel badly for their current situation?

It sucks that Ray isn't here anymore, and that he's having some foot issues, but in the NBA you have to perform physically, even as a coach.  If he couldn't do so, I can't blame the Celtics for letting him go.  

But can you blame the Celtics for causing the ailment that lead to his dismissal? I think that's the point winsomme was trying to make.

Probably, since the MRSA shouldn't have happened.  However, what's the remedy?  The Celtics gave him $100k and free medical.  He signed the release.  He had the option of suing, and declined.  

Should the Celtics just keep paying him ad infinitum?

Well I'll tell you what they shouldn't have done....forced him into a take it or leave it situation when the reason for not being able to perform the job happened working for them...and working quite well for that matter...

Again, I don't what the whole story is, but if what is being reported has legs, then they should rectify it.
In the end doesn't every negotiation over a settlement come down to a take it or leave it moment?

Yeah, exactly.  And the Celtics think they *did* rectify it, by giving him a fairly large cash settlement and health care.  Plus, Ray has the right to work for somebody else.

As I understand the facts, Ray's contract was expired, and they didn't ask him back.  He was basically a free agent that the team declined to re-sign.  He was physically unable to perform, and in settlement of any claims related to the MRSA, Ray got $100k + medical care.  That's pretty open and shut.  I know some people would like to see the Celtics give Ray a job for life in public relations or something, out of some feeling of guilt or loyalty.  Fine, but that's called "charity", and it's certainly not an obligation.

By the way, does anybody know anything about MRSA?  Is it possible to be exposed to it in 2006, and then almost lose your foot in 2009 / 2010?  Does it hibernate?  Or is that a situation where you have a long term issue and just aren't taking care of it?  The whole thing sounds very strange.

Well what you understand to have happened is what is being disputed in the article. So, my point is that if Vecsey is right and the Cs didn't do right by Ray, they need to rectify it.

I don't consider it charity to compensate someone for their contributions to your organization and injuries that may have happened working for you that make them "unable to perform the job" you are dumping them from.

the whole thing felt unceremonious to me at the time. and it seems that that is what Vecsey is pointing out with this article...confirming the feeling I had when it happened.

I mean, the guy was routinely praised for the work he did with our bigs....

Re: Peter Vecsey: The Celtics turned their back on Clifford Ray
« Reply #55 on: January 08, 2011, 07:13:15 PM »

Offline dasani

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read this yesterday. raised an eyebrow. not sure what to think. I don't trust Vecsey however.

Re: Peter Vecsey: The Celtics turned their back on Clifford Ray
« Reply #56 on: January 08, 2011, 07:25:01 PM »

Offline More Banners

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Isn't the guy who took over as interim HC after Obie quit still working for the team as a scout or something?

I suppose there's a limit to how many jobs there are in the organization...

Re: Peter Vecsey: The Celtics turned their back on Clifford Ray
« Reply #57 on: January 08, 2011, 08:23:34 PM »

Offline soap07

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Isn't the guy who took over as interim HC after Obie quit still working for the team as a scout or something?

I suppose there's a limit to how many jobs there are in the organization...

No, I think I read this year that he was on Obie's Indiana staff as an assistant but recently left.

Re: Peter Vecsey: The Celtics turned their back on Clifford Ray
« Reply #58 on: January 09, 2011, 03:54:49 PM »

Offline billysan

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Just a couple of points:

Do we know for sure that Ray was even under contract for this season? If not, it would seem that the team kept him on the payroll through the summer as a goodwill gesture at the very least.

It would be virtually impossible to prove he got an infection like MRSA from the Celtics facility even if it was found to be present and even if other players/personnel contracted it. It can come from nearly any kind of medical type procedure including dentistry as well as other sources.

The fact that the team has assumed responsibility for his medical care is not an act of guilt, but of compassion. The money and the extra time this summer on the payroll after Frank was hired were a form of severance.


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Re: Peter Vecsey: The Celtics turned their back on Clifford Ray
« Reply #59 on: January 09, 2011, 04:48:03 PM »

Offline vinnie

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As I said earlier, Vescey makes things up and is a Celtics hater. I think that is all anyone needs to know about this issue.