Peter Vecsey: The Celtics turned their back on Clifford Ray

[JSD]

Wish someone would give me 100K to go away if I couldn't do a job.

I'd take half that even in this climate.

There are some missing facts here but, it's sure tough for me to feel bad. Free Medical care from the best in the business to take care of his ailment and $100,000 is pretty good.

[JSD]

I don't think I'd call a guy a charity case if he almost lost his foot due to something that happened to him on the job....

Well, what would you call him in that situation?  I mean, isn't that the definition of a charity case, giving money to somebody who can't earn it because you feel badly for their current situation?

It sucks that Ray isn't here anymore, and that he's having some foot issues, but in the NBA you have to perform physically, even as a coach.  If he couldn't do so, I can't blame the Celtics for letting him go. 

But can you blame the Celtics for causing the ailment that lead to his dismissal? I think that's the point winsomme was trying to make.

[Roy H.]

I don't think I'd call a guy a charity case if he almost lost his foot due to something that happened to him on the job....

Well, what would you call him in that situation?  I mean, isn't that the definition of a charity case, giving money to somebody who can't earn it because you feel badly for their current situation?

It sucks that Ray isn't here anymore, and that he's having some foot issues, but in the NBA you have to perform physically, even as a coach.  If he couldn't do so, I can't blame the Celtics for letting him go. 

But can you blame the Celtics for causing the ailment that lead to his dismissal? I think that's the point winsomme was trying to make.

Probably, since the MRSA shouldn't have happened.  However, what's the remedy?  The Celtics gave him $100k and free medical.  He signed the release.  He had the option of suing, and declined. 

Should the Celtics just keep paying him ad infinitum?

[JSD]

I don't think I'd call a guy a charity case if he almost lost his foot due to something that happened to him on the job....

Well, what would you call him in that situation?  I mean, isn't that the definition of a charity case, giving money to somebody who can't earn it because you feel badly for their current situation?

It sucks that Ray isn't here anymore, and that he's having some foot issues, but in the NBA you have to perform physically, even as a coach.  If he couldn't do so, I can't blame the Celtics for letting him go.  

But can you blame the Celtics for causing the ailment that lead to his dismissal? I think that's the point winsomme was trying to make.

Probably, since the MRSA shouldn't have happened.  However, what's the remedy?  The Celtics gave him $100k and free medical.  He signed the release.  He had the option of suing, and declined.  

Should the Celtics just keep paying him ad infinitum?

I learned a new word  

No, they shouldn't. And Ray has himself to blame for not consulting an attorney. He was afraid of walking away with nothing I guess. Crappy situation to be put in though if it's true.

[2short]

Its a business; see Leon Powe.  Like both Clifford Ray and Leon but these are things that happen.  100k is a nice severance package

[Birdbrain]

I always liked Clifford Ray and Pete is obviously extrapolating to create a story but, I do think it's important that an NBA assistant coach be able to walk. 

Baby plays like a SF due to size.  Although I guess you could say Clifford helped him learn to use his body and rim to get  his shot off although I suspect BBD has had to do that his whole life. 

Perkins isn't a very good low post player.

Who are the other bigs Clifford was instrumental in helping?

[bdm860]

I'm all for conducting business the smartest way possible, but there are ways to handle situations with class, and based on Vecsey article, I can see how it seems the Celtics didn't handle it with class.

1.  You want to give your employees, or people you deal with, as much notice as possible in regards to a major decision.  Lawrence Frank was hired on 7/15/10, and first reports of Clifford Ray being let go came out on 9/14/10 (although the reports says he "found at last month" http://www.celticsblog.com/2010/9/14/1687699/celtics-laid-off-clifford-ray).  I never really paid attention to “coaching signings” but most players sign in the beginning of July, if it’s the same for coaches, then Boston shouldn’t have waited so long.

2.  Is there a potential insurance claim or workers comp claim that Boston tried to avoid?  I’ve worked in insurance before, so that’s the first thing that popped in my head when I read that.  The 100k severance might have actually saved them money instead of letting Clifford Ray go out on a claim (they probably wouldn’t owe him his salary, but their insurance rates could skyrocket, or it could be a self funded plan, etc.).

3.  There could have even been a lawsuit.  I mean if Clifford Ray almost lost his leg, and it was due to unsafe working conditions, and full mobility is critical to Clifford Ray’s job and future job prospects, and the Celtics delayed too long or failed to allow Clifford Ray to get checked out, and Clifford Ray may never regain full use of his leg again, (I know, several assumptions by me in here), well I’m no lawyer but that sounds like it has all the makings a lawsuit to me.

I could see how some could say the Celtics didn't act with the utmost class.

[kozlodoev]

My question is who is the new assistant coach that Frank brought in? I know Frank took a step down, but seriously, who gives an assistant an assistant? I haven't heard about any new AC, nor is he listed on the Celtics coaching staff (http://www.nba.com/celtics/roster/coaches/).

Frank brought in Roy Rogers, who now serves as a big man coach. As you might see, none of our skill coaches are listed on the website -- can't see Tyronn Lue there, and he seems to be in the same boat.

[Brendan]

I trust PV not much. If the Celtics didn't let him know they wouldn't bring him back - then that's **** move, if they didn't know then its too bad for him, but he could have seen the uncertainty for what it was and started looking.

If he got hurt on the job and the Celtics have liability, he probably wouldn't have just accepted 100k and free medical (unless he still has the right to sue for pain and suffering, etc.) But these kinds of infections require diligence on the patients part as well... we don't know what caused the infection for sure, and we don't know what treatment was provided, and we don't know who if anyone was negligent.

So I'm not buying it... maybe they just aren't that big of fans of his work.

[Roy H.]

I'm all for conducting business the smartest way possible, but there are ways to handle situations with class, and based on Vecsey article, I can see how it seems the Celtics didn't handle it with class.

1.  You want to give your employees, or people you deal with, as much notice as possible in regards to a major decision.  Lawrence Frank was hired on 7/15/10, and first reports of Clifford Ray being let go came out on 9/14/10 (although the reports says he "found at last month" http://www.celticsblog.com/2010/9/14/1687699/celtics-laid-off-clifford-ray).  I never really paid attention to “coaching signings” but most players sign in the beginning of July, if it’s the same for coaches, then Boston shouldn’t have waited so long.

2.  Is there a potential insurance claim or workers comp claim that Boston tried to avoid?  I’ve worked in insurance before, so that’s the first thing that popped in my head when I read that.  The 100k severance might have actually saved them money instead of letting Clifford Ray go out on a claim (they probably wouldn’t owe him his salary, but their insurance rates could skyrocket, or it could be a self funded plan, etc.).

3.  There could have even been a lawsuit.  I mean if Clifford Ray almost lost his leg, and it was due to unsafe working conditions, and full mobility is critical to Clifford Ray’s job and future job prospects, and the Celtics delayed too long or failed to allow Clifford Ray to get checked out, and Clifford Ray may never regain full use of his leg again, (I know, several assumptions by me in here), well I’m no lawyer but that sounds like it has all the makings a lawsuit to me.

I could see how some could say the Celtics didn't act with the utmost class.

I understand where your first point might not be the classy way, although we don't know what was going on behind the scenes.

However, what would a "classy" team do regarding points 2 and 3?  Should they say, "Go ahead and sue us, you really might have a good legal case"?  That doesn't seem particularly classy.  Rather, it's just stupid, and something that companies don't do in reality.

It sounds like the Celtics fired him, and gave him $100k and health insurance in settlement of any potential claim he may have had.  Their other alternative would have been to just fire him, and let him hire attorneys to fight about it in court.  I think the Celtics went the classier way of the two options.

[Fafnir]

Given the timing of his dismissal I buy that his poor health is the reason he's no longer with the C's. I agree with Roy, what are the C's supposed to do with an employee who can't perform his duties?

Hopefully Ray can get healthy and get back into coaching. I also hope that the C's settlement is adequate for what the costs of his treatment will be.

[jasail]

I don't really see the issue Vescey is trying to drum up here.  Ray was a great coach who was instrumental in developing Al, Perk, and Davis.  However, his injury/condition left him unable to perform the duties his job entailed.  Because of this the Celtics had to let him go.  Rather than getting messy with lawyers they settled this out of court for $100k and 1st class medical care.

Roy, as the c's blog in house legal counsel, if Ray was unsatisfied with the terms of this settlement couldn't he have sued under OSHA and/or negligence (as there is a history of foot injuries)?  

While Vescey may call this the real story, it seems just like this is just the abstract. If my assumption that Ray could have sued is correct, you have to wonder that if Ray didn't go public or to lawyers with this there has to be a reason - either he was satisfied with the terms or perhaps at fault to a degree (e.g., not seeking or refusing treatment early enough).  

[Mike-Dub]

I wonder what he is doing now.  Hope he's getting healthy and another coaching job somewhere.

[Master Po]

Three cents by me

I don't like Peter Vecsey...he is a rumor and story ****

I have no idea what really happened in this case until I could review the medical records and the actual written correspondence. Who knows the truth besides one or two people, and even then the truth is generally somewhere in between what each party thinks.

I don't hold Danny Ainge in high regard in how he treats people based purely on what I have seen and read from a  distance. I could be wrong but I wouldn't trust him from what little I know. I think in some regards he is exctly what Toine Walker really called him.... A snake...but a smart one.

[bdm860]

I'm all for conducting business the smartest way possible, but there are ways to handle situations with class, and based on Vecsey article, I can see how it seems the Celtics didn't handle it with class.

1.  You want to give your employees, or people you deal with, as much notice as possible in regards to a major decision.  Lawrence Frank was hired on 7/15/10, and first reports of Clifford Ray being let go came out on 9/14/10 (although the reports says he "found at last month" http://www.celticsblog.com/2010/9/14/1687699/celtics-laid-off-clifford-ray).  I never really paid attention to “coaching signings” but most players sign in the beginning of July, if it’s the same for coaches, then Boston shouldn’t have waited so long.

2.  Is there a potential insurance claim or workers comp claim that Boston tried to avoid?  I’ve worked in insurance before, so that’s the first thing that popped in my head when I read that.  The 100k severance might have actually saved them money instead of letting Clifford Ray go out on a claim (they probably wouldn’t owe him his salary, but their insurance rates could skyrocket, or it could be a self funded plan, etc.).

3.  There could have even been a lawsuit.  I mean if Clifford Ray almost lost his leg, and it was due to unsafe working conditions, and full mobility is critical to Clifford Ray’s job and future job prospects, and the Celtics delayed too long or failed to allow Clifford Ray to get checked out, and Clifford Ray may never regain full use of his leg again, (I know, several assumptions by me in here), well I’m no lawyer but that sounds like it has all the makings a lawsuit to me.

I could see how some could say the Celtics didn't act with the utmost class.

I understand where your first point might not be the classy way, although we don't know what was going on behind the scenes.

However, what would a "classy" team do regarding points 2 and 3?  Should they say, "Go ahead and sue us, you really might have a good legal case"?  That doesn't seem particularly classy.  Rather, it's just stupid, and something that companies don't do in reality.

It sounds like the Celtics fired him, and gave him $100k and health insurance in settlement of any potential claim he may have had.  Their other alternative would have been to just fire him, and let him hire attorneys to fight about it in court.  I think the Celtics went the classier way of the two options.

It all depends I think.  Obviously we don't know what's going on here, so it's all just a guess on our parts.  But hypothetically for #2 and #3, if they are really the Celtics fault and they would owe Clifford Ray a lot more (from a liability or insurance claim perspective), then they should compensate him fairly.  It's all just hypothetical though, we don't know what's going on, but I think a lot of companies do compensate people fairly, where Vecsey was implying that the Celtics didn't.

I mean 100k seems fair to us, but what did Clifford Ray make beforehand?  And if the Celtics did "cause" this injury to him and it effects him long term, how much does he stand to lose?  I do expect the Celtics or any respectable company not pressure him with a take-it-or-leave-it deal that he has 5 minutes to decide on (a sign that they're not acting in everybody's best interest).  But don't know if this really happened or not, just running with some hypotheticals.