Give it up for Marquis Daniels

[Fafnir]

That is why you are a better man than I Roy, I would not go do that quality research, TP.  

Not that surprised that the numbers don't show Quis getting lit up or LeBron suddenly taking a ton of FGs like when Quis is out there it is some moment of opportunity where Pierce's D has stifled out his ability to score.  Looks like he plays pretty much like he always does.  Defending LeBron is a team effort and Quis is probably just about the same as Pierce in one-on-one defense.

I don't think a sample size of 16 minutes is enough to conclude that.

I was wrong about how the numbers played out, particularly in game 2, so maybe it was just one bad game.  Overall I still don't have much faith in Marquis defending LeBron at all. He gets by him too much.

[Snakehead]

That is why you are a better man than I Roy, I would not go do that quality research, TP. 

Not that surprised that the numbers don't show Quis getting lit up or LeBron suddenly taking a ton of FGs like when Quis is out there it is some moment of opportunity where Pierce's D has stifled out his ability to score.  Looks like he plays pretty much like he always does.  Defending LeBron is a team effort and Quis is probably just about the same as Pierce in one-on-one defense.

I don't think a sample size of 16 minutes is enough to conclude that.

I was wrong about how the numbers played out, particularly in game 2, so maybe it was just one bad game.  Overall I still don't have much faith in Marquis defending LeBron at all. He gets by him too much.

It seemed like enough for you to say Quis was not any good at defending LeBron before.

We disagree, that's fine.  Quis will keep having to play LeBron and I think he'll keep doing a fine job.

[Fafnir]

Snakehead I'm sorry I paraphrased "love" when you didn't say that. You said "he plays LeBron about as well as anyone one on one".

If I thought that was true in my own head, I'd "love" that defense. Because playing LeBron as well as anyone one on one in my mind equals "elite D on him". It appears you mean that to be "solid team defender".

I don't think he plays him as well as Pierce, if he did Doc would use Marquis to give Pierce more of a break than he has in the two match ups.

[Fafnir]

That is why you are a better man than I Roy, I would not go do that quality research, TP. 

Not that surprised that the numbers don't show Quis getting lit up or LeBron suddenly taking a ton of FGs like when Quis is out there it is some moment of opportunity where Pierce's D has stifled out his ability to score.  Looks like he plays pretty much like he always does.  Defending LeBron is a team effort and Quis is probably just about the same as Pierce in one-on-one defense.

I don't think a sample size of 16 minutes is enough to conclude that.

I was wrong about how the numbers played out, particularly in game 2, so maybe it was just one bad game.  Overall I still don't have much faith in Marquis defending LeBron at all. He gets by him too much.

It seemed like enough for you to say Quis was not any good at defending LeBron before.

I thought he got burned in both games, as Roy pointed out it was just Game 1 really. Memory is a funny thing like that with first impressions.

[Snakehead]

I don't think he plays him as well as Pierce, if he did Doc would use Marquis to give Pierce more of a break than he has in their too match up.

He probably does get muscled less being a much bigger guy so I agree overall Quis probably doesn't play him as well as Pierce, but I just think overall in the scheme of things it ends up being similar level and not much of a difference, especially since I think help defense and the team scheme is the most important part. 

But yeah, we disagree that's fine.

[Roy H.]

Marquis only played 6 minutes of SF in the first game, and 10 minutes at SF in the second game.

For whatever it's worth, I had Marquis at about 8 non-Pierce minutes in Game 1, and 13.5 minutes with Paul out of the game in Game 2. 

If that's accurate, that means Marquis gave up 17 points to Lebron in 21.5 minutes (although, again, some of these points were off turnovers and techs).  Without Marquis at SF, Lebron scored 49 points in 65.5 minutes.

Lebron vs. Marquis: .79 points per minute, 44% shooting

Lebron vs. everyone else:  .75 points per minute, 45% shooting

Whatever the difference is there, it's pretty negligible, especially when you take into account that Marquis played many of those minutes beside Nate, Semih, and BBD, while Pierce got more time with the starters.

[EJPLAYA]

The thing that Marquis does exceptionally well that most fans don't give much credit to is the ability to always have his feet in the right spot. He frustrates the offensive player not by waving his hands in their face and smothering them which often results in cheap fouls, rather cuts the man off and plays fundamentally solid defense. Considering the best in the game only blocks a couple shots a game or steals the ball 2-3 times per game, this nonsense of overly aggressive defense that gets a team in foul trouble or fouls at inopportune times hurts the team more than it helps. I would rather have Marquis's defense over TA's because it is consistent and sound vs. an occasional astounding play. 

[thirstyboots18]

Marquis Daniels is not Paul Pierce nor is he Rajon Rondo, but he is a capable back up for both of them.  He is also a veteran, is 29 years old, and (this year) seems to be in good health.  A 29 year old starter plays "at least" 30 minutes per game. I think Marquis is also capable of that and can both relieve Ray and play major minutes in the point guard position. IMO Marquis should be on the court at the end of the game. When Delonte returns, the problem will be relieved and Nate can go back to being the third option of the bench.  

(And I also like the defensive play of Avery...and feel that his offense will come. He has to learn to run the plays and make the best passes.  Rajon's main skill is not offense either. (Nate seems unable to set up plays and recognize when others are more free than he, and he has trouble seeing the shot clock.)  

Ready or not, maybe Harangody should be playing a few more minutes to give Pierce a breather.

[EJPLAYA]

Marquis only played 6 minutes of SF in the first game, and 10 minutes at SF in the second game.

For whatever it's worth, I had Marquis at about 8 non-Pierce minutes in Game 1, and 13.5 minutes with Paul out of the game in Game 2. 

If that's accurate, that means Marquis gave up 17 points to Lebron in 21.5 minutes (although, again, some of these points were off turnovers and techs).  Without Marquis at SF, Lebron scored 49 points in 65.5 minutes.

Lebron vs. Marquis: .79 points per minute, 44% shooting

Lebron vs. everyone else:  .75 points per minute, 45% shooting

Whatever the difference is there, it's pretty negligible, especially when you take into account that Marquis played many of those minutes beside Nate, Semih, and BBD, while Pierce got more time with the starters.

Roy, you've got to stop confounding everyone's opinion and speculation with actual facts. It's really hard to make a false point when you do that! 

[Fafnir]

Marquis only played 6 minutes of SF in the first game, and 10 minutes at SF in the second game.

For whatever it's worth, I had Marquis at about 8 non-Pierce minutes in Game 1, and 13.5 minutes with Paul out of the game in Game 2.  

If that's accurate, that means Marquis gave up 17 points to Lebron in 21.5 minutes (although, again, some of these points were off turnovers and techs).  Without Marquis at SF, Lebron scored 49 points in 65.5 minutes.

Lebron vs. Marquis: .79 points per minute, 44% shooting

Lebron vs. everyone else:  .75 points per minute, 45% shooting

Whatever the difference is there, it's pretty negligible, especially when you take into account that Marquis played many of those minutes beside Nate, Semih, and BBD, while Pierce got more time with the starters.

Points per minute is a strange measure to use Roy. In fact I don't think anyone really uses it. Points per possession and/or TS% are much better ones. They show a bigger difference than using per minute numbers do.

Marquis in: 1.161 PPP with TS% .679
Everyone else: .91 PPP with TS% .551

His assist rate does go down, I think he tries to attack Daniels more. 3/40 minutes versus 6.1/40 minutes.

[Finkelskyhook]

I think we're getting out of Marquis what we thought we'd be getting out of him last season.  He's an excellent backup at several positions and while he won't make anybody's all-defensive team, he's an above average defender who has great footwork.

The reality is that nobody is ever going to be able to contain the messiah.  First of all, he's too talented and big.  Second of all, he never travels or commits an offensive foul.  

All anybody can hope to do with him is to stay far enough away from him that you don't foul out while trying to get a hand in his face.

[ACF]

I love Quisy. He's got so many different shots. Bee-yoo-tiful.

[Fafnir]

I think we're getting out of Marquis what we thought we'd be getting out of him last season.  He's an excellent backup at several positions and while he won't make anybody's all-defensive team, he's an above average defender who has great footwork.

The reality is that nobody is ever going to be able to contain the messiah.  First of all, he's too talented and big.  Second of all, he never travels or commits an offensive foul.  

All anybody can hope to do with him is to stay far enough away from him that you don't foul out while trying to get a hand in his face.

Yeah, I really like Marquis so far this season. Solid at SG/SF, I just don't like him on LeBron.

Hopefully he stays healthy and is able to build on his aggressiveness offensively from last night. (ie no more sitting in the corner taking a 3)

[Roy H.]

Marquis only played 6 minutes of SF in the first game, and 10 minutes at SF in the second game.

For whatever it's worth, I had Marquis at about 8 non-Pierce minutes in Game 1, and 13.5 minutes with Paul out of the game in Game 2.  

If that's accurate, that means Marquis gave up 17 points to Lebron in 21.5 minutes (although, again, some of these points were off turnovers and techs).  Without Marquis at SF, Lebron scored 49 points in 65.5 minutes.

Lebron vs. Marquis: .79 points per minute, 44% shooting

Lebron vs. everyone else:  .75 points per minute, 45% shooting

Whatever the difference is there, it's pretty negligible, especially when you take into account that Marquis played many of those minutes beside Nate, Semih, and BBD, while Pierce got more time with the starters.

Points per minute is a strange measure to use Roy. In fact I don't think anyone really uses it. Points per possession and/or TS% are much better ones. They show a bigger difference than using per minute numbers do.

Marquis in: 1.161 PPP with TS% .679
Everyone else: .91 PPP with TS% .551

His assist rate does go down, I think he tries to attack Daniels more. 3/40 minutes versus 6.1/40 minutes.

Can I ask where you're getting your numbers?  I manually went through each possession when Marquis was in the game without Pierce, and came up with 38 total offensive possessions for Miami.  That's .447 points for Lebron per Miami offensive possession with Marquis in the game.

For your number to be accurate, Marquis would have had to be in there for only 14.6 of Miami's offensive possessions over 2 games.  Also, for Lebron to account for over a point for every one of his team's possessions would be unheard of.  He'd basically have to be scoring a basket every other time down the floor, which just doesn't happen.

As for TS%, what relevance does Lebron's FT% (a factor in TS%) have to an assessment of defense?  It's not like Marquis or Paul is defending Marquis at the FT line.

[Fafnir]

Marquis only played 6 minutes of SF in the first game, and 10 minutes at SF in the second game.

For whatever it's worth, I had Marquis at about 8 non-Pierce minutes in Game 1, and 13.5 minutes with Paul out of the game in Game 2. 

If that's accurate, that means Marquis gave up 17 points to Lebron in 21.5 minutes (although, again, some of these points were off turnovers and techs).  Without Marquis at SF, Lebron scored 49 points in 65.5 minutes.

Lebron vs. Marquis: .79 points per minute, 44% shooting

Lebron vs. everyone else:  .75 points per minute, 45% shooting

Whatever the difference is there, it's pretty negligible, especially when you take into account that Marquis played many of those minutes beside Nate, Semih, and BBD, while Pierce got more time with the starters.

Points per minute is a strange measure to use Roy. In fact I don't think anyone really uses it. Points per possession and/or TS% are much better ones. They show a bigger difference than using per minute numbers do.

Marquis in: 1.161 PPP with TS% .679
Everyone else: .91 PPP with TS% .551

His assist rate does go down, I think he tries to attack Daniels more. 3/40 minutes versus 6.1/40 minutes.

Can I ask where you're getting your numbers?  I manually went through each possession when Marquis was in the game without Pierce, and came up with 38 total offensive possessions for Miami.  That's .447 points for Lebron per Miami offensive possession with Marquis in the game.

For your number to be accurate, Marquis would have had to be in there for only 14.6 of Miami's offensive possessions over 2 games.  Also, for Lebron to account for over a point for every one of his team's possessions would be unheard of. 

As for TS%, what relevance does Lebron's FT% (a factor in TS%) have to an assessment of defense?  It's not like Marquis or Paul is defending Marquis at the FT line.

I just used the numbers you tabulated for LeBron while Marquis was in and wasn't. I'm not talking about team efficiency.

EDIT:  To recap:

Games 1 & 2, Lebron's stats with Marquis playing SF:  17 points on 4-9 shooting from the field, with 2 assists and 3 turnovers 6-8 FTA

Games 1 & 2, Lebron's stats with anybody put Marquis playing SF: 49 points, 10 assists, 15-33 FG, 19-26 FTs, 9 turnovers

Italics adding in the free throw numbers

Quickie Points per possession (not Miami just LeBron)
Total points / (FGA + FTA * .44 + Turnovers)

I used TS% just to give another measure of scoring efficiency. Its not about LeBron’s free throw percentage, rather his free throw attempts. FT/FGA might be a better thing to look at as it doesn’t factor in how many he made.

FT/FGA and FT%
Marquis:    .88 FT per FGA  .67% FT
Everyone else: .78 FT per FGA 73% FT

He got a single tech while marquis was in, so we could remove that and they'd be almost the same. (though he probably got some tech free throws against others too)