Magic trade moves make for even better matchups for us!

[Snakehead]

Hedo hurt us today.  We played poorly too though.  But this trade didn't hurt them today it helped them.

I don't know about that.  We did exactly what we we wanted to do with Dwight, got him in foul trouble and he was ineffective almost the whole game or simply not on the floor.

The lack of Rondo really hurt us this game.  We played badly.  If we have Rondo back and don't play as badly then this would of been a beating on the Magic.  I only feel more certain of my earlier post after this game.  They are better on offense but much worse on D.

[Q_FBE]

Maybe if everyone for the C's was healthy and available to play I would favor us over Orlando. But that is not the case. Orlando blitzed SAS with midrange jumpshots early in the shot clock all night. I would anticipate they would try to do the same to us. So hustling to loose balls and rebounds are a premium for us. That and the turnover ratio. Plus Perk is not availble to defend Howard One on One. Shaq may have his hands full with Howard.

I hate being right about the first and last four minutes of yesterdays sordid affair. But the middle forty minutes, we played mediocre basketball and outscored the Tragic 75-58. We lost the right way giving up jump shots for only eight minutes to Hedo Turkoglu, JJ Redick, and Jameer Nelson.

If both teams were at full strength, the Celtics are clearly the better team this season.

[nba is the worst]

Pretty much disagree with most of the premise of this thread.  Carter did not give us trouble  and is a proven loser. Orlando did good to get rid of him. Lewis is pretty much owned by kg. I would have taken that matchup every time. Gortat is decent and I think is definite loss for them.

On the other hand, jrich is probably the biggest Celtic killer out there. Hedo brings veratility and he makes pp work much mores than Carter ever did. Arenas is the wildcard. He is explosive scorer for sure.

In the end, there is no telling how it will work out for Orlando. But what I do know is that they had no chance against us as they were constructed. So in that sense they had nothing to lose. I worry more about them now than I did then, that's for sure.

Considering the game, this was the best analysis from the 24th, TP.

Turk was a ridiculous +30 - and was the reason they had 1 more assist than the C's.

[Larry for 3]

Vince Carter is a loser no doubt, but you know who is a bigger loser than Vince Carter... Yep Gilbert Arenas. SO no real improvement there.  And I disagree about Hedo. I didn't really notice him having an impact on the game at all.  Where was he when the Magic were down 5 with 1:30 to play??  Answer is nowhere. Jameer Nelson won that game for Orlando with some clutch shots, plain and simple, and the Celtics shot a season worst shooting percentage with umpteen missed layups and stone hands (JO).  Orlando dosent scare me at all. You dont beat the Boston Celtics shooting 3's and and having a non exsistant inside game like Orlando has.  They still have no chance against us

[nba is the worst]

Vince Carter is a loser no doubt, but you know who is a bigger loser than Vince Carter... Yep Gilbert Arenas. SO no real improvement there.  And I disagree about Hedo. I didn't really notice him having an impact on the game at all.  Where was he when the Magic were down 5 with 1:30 to play??  Answer is nowhere. Jameer Nelson won that game for Orlando with some clutch shots, plain and simple, and the Celtics shot a season worst shooting percentage with umpteen missed layups and stone hands (JO).  Orlando dosent scare me at all. You dont beat the Boston Celtics shooting 3's and and having a non exsistant inside game like Orlando has.  They still have no chance against us

Hedo's passing makes a big difference for the Magic. Whether you "really notice(d) him having an impact on the game" or not, his +30 was more than 3X the next highest player in the game (9), and the highest celtic was at +5.

Remember that this was just the 4th game since the trade, and they  are 2-2, having beat the two best teams in the league, and blowing out the Spurs.

That would not have happened with Vince.

Give them a month before you proclaim the Celtics' inherent superiority...

[hpantazo]

Hedo hurt us today.  We played poorly too though.  But this trade didn't hurt them today it helped them.

I don't know about that.  We did exactly what we we wanted to do with Dwight, got him in foul trouble and he was ineffective almost the whole game or simply not on the floor.

The lack of Rondo really hurt us this game.  We played badly.  If we have Rondo back and don't play as badly then this would of been a beating on the Magic.  I only feel more certain of my earlier post after this game.  They are better on offense but much worse on D.

the lack of Rondo and the fact that Nate has been getting abused by opposing pg's and can't effectively run the offense is what killed us yesterday, and what caused us problems the last few games. I think if Delonte was not injured, this stretch without Rondo would be much easier, as Delonte can run the point and play solid D, and free up Nate to be the sg that he is.

[csfansince60s]

Pretty much disagree with most of the premise of this thread.  Carter did not give us trouble  and is a proven loser. Orlando did good to get rid of him. Lewis is pretty much owned by kg. I would have taken that matchup every time. Gortat is decent and I think is definite loss for them.

On the other hand, jrich is probably the biggest Celtic killer out there. Hedo brings veratility and he makes pp work much mores than Carter ever did. Arenas is the wildcard. He is explosive scorer for sure.

In the end, there is no telling how it will work out for Orlando. But what I do know is that they had no chance against us as they were constructed. So in that sense they had nothing to lose. I worry more about them now than I did then, that's for sure.

Considering the game, this was the best analysis from the 24th, TP.

Turk was a ridiculous +30 - and was the reason they had 1 more assist than the C's.

I stick by my OP. The Magic got weaker in their match-ups with us.

First, let's address today's game only as a snapshot in time: In their defense, with all the new personnel for the Magic, no one can really expect them to mesh yet and be running on all cylinders. That being said, however, they were fully healthy and didn't win the game (barely), we lost it (handed it to them)with a little assist from the refs. We had in essence available to us to meaningfully contribute 1.a limited-minutes Shaq, 2. KG, 3. BBD, 4. PP, 5. RA, 6. Nate, 7. Marquis (Bradley, Luke, Semih, Wafer and JO don't count as potential contributors)with Rondo, Perk and Delonte obviously not available. We played with a six and one-half man rotation against a younger, more athletic, fully-stocked Magic team who were at home and on the big stage that is Christmas Day in the NBA. But for the first few minutes of the game, and the last 4 or 5 minutes, our D, with a decimated crew, dominated this supposedly potent Magic offense. We primarily lost the game because at one point past the halfway point of the final stanza our starting guards (Nate and Ray) were a combined 4 for 21 for the game. The game should have been put away by then, but due to that abysmal shooting, the Magic were hanging around. Our depleted crew ran out of gas in the end, and even though our D was still pretty good (the Magic threw in a lot of shots from their anus) we had no legs for any offense.

We had plenty of good looks for the whole game, we just couldn't knock them down consistently. And that is one of my major points in my OP: our match-ups against them are better, because their D is significantly worse and their O is marginally better, if at all.

Losing Gortat and Pietrus have the biggest impact on hurting their D. If this Magic team can't D, and they couldn't yesterday afternoon, fully healthy, they match up more poorly against usand will never beat us in a 7 game series, unless we are decimated with injuries like yesterday and don't have RR.

In the OP, I gave (grudgingly) props to Turkeyglue because he is a tougher, dirtier (see "non-flagrant", potentially career-ending lower body block of KG who hurt his arm/elbow? on the play) player than either RashLewis or VC. However, offensively, RLewis was a more versatile player and just as difficult a match-up for us as Turk. In addition, despite VC's disappearing act in almost every 4th quarter he has played against us in a Magic uni, he has hurt us offensively in quarters 1-3. JRich will hurt us far more than he did yesterday, so that is an offensive plus, but while Zero's potential is there, DWest, and Marquis will be tough defensively on him. And despite his great admiration of Otis Smith, he could be something or he could be nothing. As described above, he is a "wildcard".

In summary, D wins chips and match-up wise defensively, the Magic as currently constituted (and they may get a big that would change the dynamic and, potentially my opinion) are worse off against us now than they were before the trade. Offensively, they might be marginally better, but our depleted D corps owned them for most of the game yesterday. What happens when we get RR and DWest and possibly Perk (long-shot to be effective this year) back??? Even better match-ups for us!

[Meadowlark_Scal]

I didn't read all the previous comments here, but while i scrolled down i saw what i believe, turgolu is the difference here, he is difficult for the C's to guard, when he was here before, he ripped us for as many points as he wanted too. He shoots and drives and scores at will, and then he shows the other weakness of the C's, you rough the C's up, they fall apart.

   Granted, it is by ref assist that this goes on, but WE need an answer. Shaq was that answer, but the refs are one step ahead of us, they took him out EARLY.Turgo beat up PP AND KG....what did we do, the same thing we did VS the LAKERS last year.

   Either fix it, or get used to it. Me, I fight the way you fight me. Plus 2 or so. So, after they whacked pp and kg, I call gody to "fix" hedo. Not an injury, or anything like that. Just a very hard foul, on his way to the hoop.

  Hedo took kg out really hard, and pp more than once. The Lakers killed Perk, Ray and Rondo.....We did nothing, hoping the REFS or the league would help....they didn't and won't. Besides, if we do the same thing, well, that is the standard they set. Plead it that way later. Watch it stop right away..!

[csfansince60s]

I didn't read all the previous comments here, but while i scrolled down i saw what i believe, turgolu is the difference here, he is difficult for the C's to guard, when he was here before, he ripped us for as many points as he wanted too. He shoots and drives and scores at will, and then he shows the other weakness of the C's, you rough the C's up, they fall apart.

   Granted, it is by ref assist that this goes on, but WE need an answer. Shaq was that answer, but the refs are one step ahead of us, they took him out EARLY.Turgo beat up PP AND KG....what did we do, the same thing we did VS the LAKERS last year.

   Either fix it, or get used to it. Me, I fight the way you fight me. Plus 2 or so. So, after they whacked pp and kg, I call gody to "fix" hedo. Not an injury, or anything like that. Just a very hard foul, on his way to the hoop.

  Hedo took kg out really hard, and pp more than once. The Lakers killed Perk, Ray and Rondo.....We did nothing, hoping the REFS or the league would help....they didn't and won't. Besides, if we do the same thing, well, that is the standard they set. Plead it that way later. Watch it stop right away..!

TP. Meadow....I agree, Turkeyglue does toughen them up (much like Artest did for the Lakers) , but the TP is more for what our response should be...If you recall Artest's intentional knee to the thigh of RA effectively took RA out of the finals, and the high-low cheapshot by Kobe and Bynum? screwed Perk and our title hopes (losing that 7th game to them killed me:  they repeat because of the injuries caused by them, they again, as the year before, back in to a title because of our injuries to KG and Powe the year before; and not only do we lose another title since we should have had at least 2 of 3 in this big thre era so far, and with a little luck our way, could've three-peated last year, they're the ones to get them and inch them closer to us in total titles and that weirdo Jackson gets revered over Red)...

We absolutely should have responded in kind to Artest, Bryant and Bynum and Turkeyglue yesterday. Not doing so sets us up for more abuse and more potential for failure.

[Meadowlark_Scal]

Well, ya. When someone comes at you this way, they are only asking..."What-ya-gonna-do?" Same old bully tactics as in grade school, teacher ain't gonna help you, you still have to walk home. Make a move, better to go down fighting. Hedo is a good player, hard to cover, and showed he will take out KG and PP...so what did we do, well PP and Ray wilted in the 4th, kg shot outstanding, but were basically outside the paint again. I noticed when bbd was in there, he was alone, and he cannot elevate to dunk, or so it seems. In that deep, you can only dunk hard, or bring it out for a reset or hook. He usually had 4 guys on him. I know it is asking a lot, but if he could A+.

  You know, we  NEVER did replace LEON. ALL great teams have a rebounder, or at least, in my mind. We had LEON, we won it all. LEON beat out bbd for that spot. WHY??? Rebounding is really only desire + experience.

[Meadowlark_Scal]

Still, one more thing, they beat us without Rondo and West. As much as i sometimes do not like Nates shooting, he did play most of the game, and carried a heavy load for us. Also, when you play guys like howard, as the opposing guy covering him, you can body him, when your guy is driving, it is like boxing out on the other end, it works, people do it all the time.

  Most times when we were driving vs howard, it was a guy, alone, 1 vs 4. Rondo will bury Nelson, West is good help too. Nice options to have. But we were still short on big men. Maybe Erden can fix Turgo...Turk vs turk....!

[nba is the worst]

Pretty much disagree with most of the premise of this thread.  Carter did not give us trouble  and is a proven loser. Orlando did good to get rid of him. Lewis is pretty much owned by kg. I would have taken that matchup every time. Gortat is decent and I think is definite loss for them.

On the other hand, jrich is probably the biggest Celtic killer out there. Hedo brings veratility and he makes pp work much mores than Carter ever did. Arenas is the wildcard. He is explosive scorer for sure.

In the end, there is no telling how it will work out for Orlando. But what I do know is that they had no chance against us as they were constructed. So in that sense they had nothing to lose. I worry more about them now than I did then, that's for sure.

Considering the game, this was the best analysis from the 24th, TP.

Turk was a ridiculous +30 - and was the reason they had 1 more assist than the C's.

I stick by my OP. The Magic got weaker in their match-ups with us.

First, let's address today's game only as a snapshot in time: In their defense, with all the new personnel for the Magic, no one can really expect them to mesh yet and be running on all cylinders. That being said, however, they were fully healthy and didn't win the game (barely), we lost it (handed it to them)with a little assist from the refs. We had in essence available to us to meaningfully contribute 1.a limited-minutes Shaq, 2. KG, 3. BBD, 4. PP, 5. RA, 6. Nate, 7. Marquis (Bradley, Luke, Semih, Wafer and JO don't count as potential contributors)with Rondo, Perk and Delonte obviously not available. We played with a six and one-half man rotation against a younger, more athletic, fully-stocked Magic team who were at home and on the big stage that is Christmas Day in the NBA. But for the first few minutes of the game, and the last 4 or 5 minutes, our D, with a decimated crew, dominated this supposedly potent Magic offense. We primarily lost the game because at one point past the halfway point of the final stanza our starting guards (Nate and Ray) were a combined 4 for 21 for the game. The game should have been put away by then, but due to that abysmal shooting, the Magic were hanging around. Our depleted crew ran out of gas in the end, and even though our D was still pretty good (the Magic threw in a lot of shots from their anus) we had no legs for any offense.

We had plenty of good looks for the whole game, we just couldn't knock them down consistently. And that is one of my major points in my OP: our match-ups against them are better, because their D is significantly worse and their O is marginally better, if at all.

Losing Gortat and Pietrus have the biggest impact on hurting their D. If this Magic team can't D, and they couldn't yesterday afternoon, fully healthy, they match up more poorly against usand will never beat us in a 7 game series, unless we are decimated with injuries like yesterday and don't have RR.

In the OP, I gave (grudgingly) props to Turkeyglue because he is a tougher, dirtier (see "non-flagrant", potentially career-ending lower body block of KG who hurt his arm/elbow? on the play) player than either RashLewis or VC. However, offensively, RLewis was a more versatile player and just as difficult a match-up for us as Turk. In addition, despite VC's disappearing act in almost every 4th quarter he has played against us in a Magic uni, he has hurt us offensively in quarters 1-3. JRich will hurt us far more than he did yesterday, so that is an offensive plus, but while Zero's potential is there, DWest, and Marquis will be tough defensively on him. And despite his great admiration of Otis Smith, he could be something or he could be nothing. As described above, he is a "wildcard".

In summary, D wins chips and match-up wise defensively, the Magic as currently constituted (and they may get a big that would change the dynamic and, potentially my opinion) are worse off against us now than they were before the trade. Offensively, they might be marginally better, but our depleted D corps owned them for most of the game yesterday. What happens when we get RR and DWest and possibly Perk (long-shot to be effective this year) back??? Even better match-ups for us!

here's why I disagree:

Gortat, while a decent backup, only was averaging 15.8 mpg for the Magic. 4 ppg/4.7 rpg.

Earl Clark (or possibly the player they trade Qrich for) looks like he can do that just fine.

IMO Anderson is a better player right now than Lewis, particularly defensively. He does more offensively than Rashard did.

But Turk's passing is the key, because the other Magic players are either unwilling or unable to accomplish what he does.

The Magic have 31 ast vs the Spurs and 22,16 vs the Mavs and C's. That's an avg of 23 apg, compared to their season number of 18.2, against the top 3 teams in the league.

Again, IMO it's too early to say what the teams' defense is going to be like at this point, but J-Rich is way above Vince defensively. 

[csfansince60s]

Still, one more thing, they beat us without Rondo and West. As much as i sometimes do not like Nates shooting, he did play most of the game, and carried a heavy load for us.

Actually, MScal, they barely beat us with our playing in effect a 6 and 1/2 man rotation....We just ran out of gas at the end...add any two of DWest, RR, Perk or a non-rusty JO, and we win going away, and even then still not being at full strength....Not worried about Magic as constituted unless we enter the playoffs as banged up and short-rotationed like yesterday.

[csfansince60s]

Pretty much disagree with most of the premise of this thread.  Carter did not give us trouble  and is a proven loser. Orlando did good to get rid of him. Lewis is pretty much owned by kg. I would have taken that matchup every time. Gortat is decent and I think is definite loss for them.

On the other hand, jrich is probably the biggest Celtic killer out there. Hedo brings veratility and he makes pp work much mores than Carter ever did. Arenas is the wildcard. He is explosive scorer for sure.

In the end, there is no telling how it will work out for Orlando. But what I do know is that they had no chance against us as they were constructed. So in that sense they had nothing to lose. I worry more about them now than I did then, that's for sure.

Considering the game, this was the best analysis from the 24th, TP.

Turk was a ridiculous +30 - and was the reason they had 1 more assist than the C's.

I stick by my OP. The Magic got weaker in their match-ups with us.

First, let's address today's game only as a snapshot in time: In their defense, with all the new personnel for the Magic, no one can really expect them to mesh yet and be running on all cylinders. That being said, however, they were fully healthy and didn't win the game (barely), we lost it (handed it to them)with a little assist from the refs. We had in essence available to us to meaningfully contribute 1.a limited-minutes Shaq, 2. KG, 3. BBD, 4. PP, 5. RA, 6. Nate, 7. Marquis (Bradley, Luke, Semih, Wafer and JO don't count as potential contributors)with Rondo, Perk and Delonte obviously not available. We played with a six and one-half man rotation against a younger, more athletic, fully-stocked Magic team who were at home and on the big stage that is Christmas Day in the NBA. But for the first few minutes of the game, and the last 4 or 5 minutes, our D, with a decimated crew, dominated this supposedly potent Magic offense. We primarily lost the game because at one point past the halfway point of the final stanza our starting guards (Nate and Ray) were a combined 4 for 21 for the game. The game should have been put away by then, but due to that abysmal shooting, the Magic were hanging around. Our depleted crew ran out of gas in the end, and even though our D was still pretty good (the Magic threw in a lot of shots from their anus) we had no legs for any offense.

We had plenty of good looks for the whole game, we just couldn't knock them down consistently. And that is one of my major points in my OP: our match-ups against them are better, because their D is significantly worse and their O is marginally better, if at all.

Losing Gortat and Pietrus have the biggest impact on hurting their D. If this Magic team can't D, and they couldn't yesterday afternoon, fully healthy, they match up more poorly against usand will never beat us in a 7 game series, unless we are decimated with injuries like yesterday and don't have RR.

In the OP, I gave (grudgingly) props to Turkeyglue because he is a tougher, dirtier (see "non-flagrant", potentially career-ending lower body block of KG who hurt his arm/elbow? on the play) player than either RashLewis or VC. However, offensively, RLewis was a more versatile player and just as difficult a match-up for us as Turk. In addition, despite VC's disappearing act in almost every 4th quarter he has played against us in a Magic uni, he has hurt us offensively in quarters 1-3. JRich will hurt us far more than he did yesterday, so that is an offensive plus, but while Zero's potential is there, DWest, and Marquis will be tough defensively on him. And despite his great admiration of Otis Smith, he could be something or he could be nothing. As described above, he is a "wildcard".

In summary, D wins chips and match-up wise defensively, the Magic as currently constituted (and they may get a big that would change the dynamic and, potentially my opinion) are worse off against us now than they were before the trade. Offensively, they might be marginally better, but our depleted D corps owned them for most of the game yesterday. What happens when we get RR and DWest and possibly Perk (long-shot to be effective this year) back??? Even better match-ups for us!

here's why I disagree:

Gortat, while a decent backup, only was averaging 15.8 mpg for the Magic. 4 ppg/4.7 rpg.

Earl Clark (or possibly the player they trade Qrich for) looks like he can do that just fine.

IMO Anderson is a better player right now than Lewis, particularly defensively. He does more offensively than Rashard did.

But Turk's passing is the key, because the other Magic players are either unwilling or unable to accomplish what he does.

The Magic have 31 ast vs the Spurs and 22,16 vs the Mavs and C's. That's an avg of 23 apg, compared to their season number of 18.2, against the top 3 teams in the league.

Again, IMO it's too early to say what the teams' defense is going to be like at this point, but J-Rich is way above Vince defensively. 

TP, nba for a well reasoned post, with most of which I agree, especially RE: the Turk and Anderson who gave us problems even with the Nets.

My main issue is with the loss of Pietrus and Gortat, both  who were tough matchups for us, which is what the main thrust of what my OP was about. Pietrus' perimeter D and ball pressure on RA and PP were tough and not replaced by JRich or anybody the Magic acquired in this trade. In addition, Gortat's yearly averages may not be great, but he matched up well against us both offenively because of his strength and mobility and defensively because of the same attributes by clogging the middle, blocking shots and out-muscling or outquicking our bigs for rebounds. Andersen can't do that and with his length and shooting ability seems more of a RL replacement.

Given the Turk, Zero and Jrich's defensive histories which are not stellar and the loss positionally of Pietrus on perimeter D and Gortat on the interior, I don't think that it is too early to project that the Magic defense is worse matchup-wise against us than it was before.

Again though, you make many good points.

[Meadowlark_Scal]

Well, true, they barely beat us......but 1 point or 100 points, we still lost.