A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)

[Redz]

Hold the door!   


So do you reckon Hodor knew that moment was coming his whole life?

[Csfan1984]

Hold the door!   


So do you reckon Hodor knew that moment was coming his whole life?

Think so. Man that was messed up.

[Casperian]

"All-Timer" was right. That was the best GoT episode ever, imo, better than Blackwater or the Red Wedding. Heck, that might've been the best TV moment I ever had. Just thinking about it gives me the chills.

I loved the episode halfway through. I thought it was a candidate for best episode 75% in, but that ending? God almighty. So many interesting developments in the different storylines, too.

I need a cigarette...

[jpotter33]

Wow. Just another incredible episode by GoT. This is by far my favorite season of the series, and we're only halfway through! So many things in that episode to talk about:

First, what incredible storytelling with the Hodor narrative. Martin has had that in his head since the beginning, and even being a non-vital component of the overall story, that was just an incredible narrative with how it was set up and played out. However, the philosopher in me wants to poke holes in the story due to its reliance on the grandfather paradox, though I'm not sure how relevant logic/metaphysics is when we're also talking about flashbacks via "greensight" in wargs. 

Second, this is the first mention of the Children creating the White Walkers from Man, isn't it? Talk about a backfire! I thought that was a very interesting part of the episode, because I was under the impression that the Children were fighting the Walkers long before the First Men even came over to Westeros.

Third, did anyone else catch yet another hint confirming R + L = J?? When Little Finger was leaving and said "HALF brother." Yeah, the "half" part wouldn't matter, that is unless the other half is also Targaryen.

So, yeah, what an excellent episode. There was also a recent fan theory that emerged after the Tower of Joy scene that theorized that Bran's meddling in the past actually caused most of the events emanating from the Mad King. You can read about it here: http://www.nme.com/blogs/nme-blogs/game-of-thrones-season-six-time-travel-paradox-theory

After this episode, that doesn't seem so crazy, huh? I'm really interested to see where they go with the Bran storyline from here on out. He was supposed to be the weapon to stop the White Walkers, but I'm not sure how that works out now. I'm guessing the time travel/flashback/manipulating the past stuff is going to play a role, because there's a reason that the Three-Eyed Raven took Bran there to see the Hodor stuff right before he was killed.

Though there is some contradictory stuff there. In the books, the Three-Eyed Raven told Bran, "The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it." But isn't that exactly what the Hodor situation was - the future influencing the past? It'll be interesting to see where this goes from here.

EDIT: So I just read something that the reason he was able to manipulate the past was because he was "greenseeing" while also "warged" into Hodor, which created some sort of connection that affected Hodor in the past where Bran was "greenseeing." My brain hurts lol

[jpotter33]

"All-Timer" was right. That was the best GoT episode ever, imo, better than Blackwater or the Red Wedding. Heck, that might've been the best TV moment I ever had. Just thinking about it gives me the chills.

I loved the episode halfway through. I thought it was a candidate for best episode 75% in, but that ending? God almighty. So many interesting developments in the different storylines, too.

I need a cigarette...

Eh, it was definitely a top-five or top-three episode of the series, but I still think Hardhome was a better episode. The fight with the White Walkers and Army of the Dead was awesome, especially Jon killing the White Walker and the Night's King turning all of the dead into wights.

[fairweatherfan]

Fun episode, though I'd seen the "hold the door" theory a couple weeks ago, they just guessed it had happened in the past.  When I saw the episode title was "The Door" I put 2 and 2 together pretty fast, which dampened the impact a bit.  But everything with the White Walker army is awesome in my book.

So, for the book readers - odds of Jorah getting Victarion's burning arm?  The show loves keeping plot beats from the book while shortcutting the characters and context.

[LarBrd33]

Wow. Just another incredible episode by GoT. This is by far my favorite season of the series, and we're only halfway through! So many things in that episode to talk about:

First, what incredible storytelling with the Hodor narrative. Martin has had that in his head since the beginning, and even being a non-vital component of the overall story, that was just an incredible narrative with how it was set up and played out. However, the philosopher in me wants to poke holes in the story due to its reliance on the grandfather paradox, though I'm not sure how relevant logic/metaphysics is when we're also talking about flashbacks via "greensight" in wargs. 

Second, this is the first mention of the Children creating the White Walkers from Man, isn't it? Talk about a backfire! I thought that was a very interesting part of the episode, because I was under the impression that the Children were fighting the Walkers long before the First Men even came over to Westeros.

Third, did anyone else catch yet another hint confirming R + L = J?? When Little Finger was leaving and said "HALF brother." Yeah, the "half" part wouldn't matter, that is unless the other half is also Targaryen.

So, yeah, what an excellent episode. There was also a recent fan theory that emerged after the Tower of Joy scene that theorized that Bran's meddling in the past actually caused most of the events emanating from the Mad King. You can read about it here: http://www.nme.com/blogs/nme-blogs/game-of-thrones-season-six-time-travel-paradox-theory

After this episode, that doesn't seem so crazy, huh? I'm really interested to see where they go with the Bran storyline from here on out. He was supposed to be the weapon to stop the White Walkers, but I'm not sure how that works out now. I'm guessing the time travel/flashback/manipulating the past stuff is going to play a role, because there's a reason that the Three-Eyed Raven took Bran there to see the Hodor stuff right before he was killed.

Though there is some contradictory stuff there. In the books, the Three-Eyed Raven told Bran, "The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it." But isn't that exactly what the Hodor situation was - the future influencing the past? It'll be interesting to see where this goes from here.

EDIT: So I just read something that the reason he was able to manipulate the past was because he was "greenseeing" while also "warged" into Hodor, which created some sort of connection that affected Hodor in the past where Bran was "greenseeing." My brain hurts lol

assuming the Jon theory is true, which at this point I'd be shocked if it isn't, doesn't that just make them cousins?

[Yoki_IsTheName]

Hold the door!   


So do you reckon Hodor knew that moment was coming his whole life?

Well, he was very uneasy at the time the cave was being raided by Wights. I think he's finalluy realizing that what he say when he was Willis is starting to come true.

Didn't Joejen do the same thing?

[fairweatherfan]

EDIT: So I just read something that the reason he was able to manipulate the past was because he was "greenseeing" while also "warged" into Hodor, which created some sort of connection that affected Hodor in the past where Bran was "greenseeing." My brain hurts lol

Yeah, explaining time-loop stuff is always eye-crossingly hard but my understanding is Bran warged into Hodor in the present while Bran's mind was also watching Hodor in the past.  This kind of connected present and past Hodor's minds and the strength of the command + being linked to the moment of his own death basically fried his brain.  That's why Raven guy kept him there for so long - Bran needed part of his consciousness in the past to create the present.

As much as it was a sad end for Hodor, it's also a pretty horrific thing to have done to the guy.  Bran not only crossed a pretty dark line by controlling a human's mind, he also retroactively ruined his entire life.  Unintentionally, but still.  And all to hold a door for maybe like 2 minutes, meaning somebody else is still going to need to step up to keep Bran alive next episode (oh please please be Benjen...)

[jpotter33]

EDIT: So I just read something that the reason he was able to manipulate the past was because he was "greenseeing" while also "warged" into Hodor, which created some sort of connection that affected Hodor in the past where Bran was "greenseeing." My brain hurts lol

Yeah, explaining time-loop stuff is always eye-crossingly hard but my understanding is Bran warged into Hodor in the present while Bran's mind was also watching Hodor in the past.  This kind of connected present and past Hodor's minds and the strength of the command + being linked to the moment of his own death basically fried his brain.  That's why Raven guy kept him there for so long - Bran needed part of his consciousness in the past to create the present.

As much as it was a sad end for Hodor, it's also a pretty horrific thing to have done to the guy.  Bran not only crossed a pretty dark line by controlling a human's mind, he also retroactively ruined his entire life.  Unintentionally, but still.  And all to hold a door for maybe like 2 minutes, meaning somebody else is still going to need to step up to keep Bran alive next episode (oh please please be Benjen...)

Yeah, I'm not really a fan of time-loop storylines. But after digesting it more and doing more research, I understand and appreciate this a little better. He's not really changing the past - he's causing the past. With his vision of the past, we have to essentially think of Bran as outside of time itself. So, yeah, this is obviously going to be a major storyline the rest of the way, and he's undoubtedly caused things to happen in the past that we will begin to learn about as the show goes on.

But, yeah, pretty much Hodor's entire life boiled down to serving Bran, with the main part being him  holding the door for two minutes to allow him and Meera to escape. I'm still not a big fan of using the time-loop narrative tool here to cause/change events in the past, because I think just vision of the past to help Bran learn things would've sufficed for the story. However, it will be incredibly interesting to see where they go with Bran from here, e.g. is he really Bran the builder?

[danglertx]

Wow. Just another incredible episode by GoT. This is by far my favorite season of the series, and we're only halfway through! So many things in that episode to talk about:

First, what incredible storytelling with the Hodor narrative. Martin has had that in his head since the beginning, and even being a non-vital component of the overall story, that was just an incredible narrative with how it was set up and played out. However, the philosopher in me wants to poke holes in the story due to its reliance on the grandfather paradox, though I'm not sure how relevant logic/metaphysics is when we're also talking about flashbacks via "greensight" in wargs. 

Second, this is the first mention of the Children creating the White Walkers from Man, isn't it? Talk about a backfire! I thought that was a very interesting part of the episode, because I was under the impression that the Children were fighting the Walkers long before the First Men even came over to Westeros.

Third, did anyone else catch yet another hint confirming R + L = J?? When Little Finger was leaving and said "HALF brother." Yeah, the "half" part wouldn't matter, that is unless the other half is also Targaryen.

So, yeah, what an excellent episode. There was also a recent fan theory that emerged after the Tower of Joy scene that theorized that Bran's meddling in the past actually caused most of the events emanating from the Mad King. You can read about it here: http://www.nme.com/blogs/nme-blogs/game-of-thrones-season-six-time-travel-paradox-theory

After this episode, that doesn't seem so crazy, huh? I'm really interested to see where they go with the Bran storyline from here on out. He was supposed to be the weapon to stop the White Walkers, but I'm not sure how that works out now. I'm guessing the time travel/flashback/manipulating the past stuff is going to play a role, because there's a reason that the Three-Eyed Raven took Bran there to see the Hodor stuff right before he was killed.

Though there is some contradictory stuff there. In the books, the Three-Eyed Raven told Bran, "The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it." But isn't that exactly what the Hodor situation was - the future influencing the past? It'll be interesting to see where this goes from here.

EDIT: So I just read something that the reason he was able to manipulate the past was because he was "greenseeing" while also "warged" into Hodor, which created some sort of connection that affected Hodor in the past where Bran was "greenseeing." My brain hurts lol

assuming the Jon theory is true, which at this point I'd be shocked if it isn't, doesn't that just make them cousins?

The only theory where they aren't cousins is if indeed Lyanna and Rheagar's child was Danny, and Ned switched the babies with Ashara and it is his and Ashara's baby and not Ashara's and Brandon's (that made sense in my mind if not in print.)  So maybe Littlefinger knows something and is saying Jon IS Sansa's half-brother but more likely he was just putting Jon down noting he was a Edited for profanity.  Please do not do it again..

It could make sense that Ned felt such guilt at leaving the child he promised to protect with Ashara while he took his own Edited for profanity.  Please do not do it again. or Brandon's back to Winterfell where he'd be safe.  If he promised to protect Jon, isn't that what he did?  Why is he feeling so guilty in the crypts at the sight of Lyanna and Brandon's statues?  If he raised Jon to adulthood and nobody has found out, what does he have to feel guilty about?  He kept his promise.  He should be looking at Lyanna's statue and smiling, saying to himself or her bones, "I did it."

[fairweatherfan]

EDIT: So I just read something that the reason he was able to manipulate the past was because he was "greenseeing" while also "warged" into Hodor, which created some sort of connection that affected Hodor in the past where Bran was "greenseeing." My brain hurts lol

Yeah, explaining time-loop stuff is always eye-crossingly hard but my understanding is Bran warged into Hodor in the present while Bran's mind was also watching Hodor in the past.  This kind of connected present and past Hodor's minds and the strength of the command + being linked to the moment of his own death basically fried his brain.  That's why Raven guy kept him there for so long - Bran needed part of his consciousness in the past to create the present.

As much as it was a sad end for Hodor, it's also a pretty horrific thing to have done to the guy.  Bran not only crossed a pretty dark line by controlling a human's mind, he also retroactively ruined his entire life.  Unintentionally, but still.  And all to hold a door for maybe like 2 minutes, meaning somebody else is still going to need to step up to keep Bran alive next episode (oh please please be Benjen...)

Yeah, I'm not really a fan of time-loop storylines. But after digesting it more and doing more research, I understand and appreciate this a little better. He's not really changing the past - he's causing the past. With his vision of the past, we have to essentially think of Bran as outside of time itself. So, yeah, this is obviously going to be a major storyline the rest of the way, and he's undoubtedly caused things to happen in the past that we will begin to learn about as the show goes on.

But, yeah, pretty much Hodor's entire life boiled down to serving Bran, with the main part being him  holding the door for two minutes to allow him and Meera to escape. I'm still not a big fan of using the time-loop narrative tool here to cause/change events in the past, because I think just vision of the past to help Bran learn things would've sufficed for the story. However, it will be incredibly interesting to see where they go with Bran from here, e.g. is he really Bran the builder?

Yeah they seem to be going with the Lost-style "whatever happened, happened" approach.  Bran didn't change the past because he had always fried Wyllis/Hodor's brain at that moment.

Of course that gets real deterministic in a hurry, but I take the Mystery Science Theater approach whenever I start thinking too much about it - repeat to myself "it's just a show, I should really just relax" 

[jpotter33]

EDIT: So I just read something that the reason he was able to manipulate the past was because he was "greenseeing" while also "warged" into Hodor, which created some sort of connection that affected Hodor in the past where Bran was "greenseeing." My brain hurts lol

Yeah, explaining time-loop stuff is always eye-crossingly hard but my understanding is Bran warged into Hodor in the present while Bran's mind was also watching Hodor in the past.  This kind of connected present and past Hodor's minds and the strength of the command + being linked to the moment of his own death basically fried his brain.  That's why Raven guy kept him there for so long - Bran needed part of his consciousness in the past to create the present.

As much as it was a sad end for Hodor, it's also a pretty horrific thing to have done to the guy.  Bran not only crossed a pretty dark line by controlling a human's mind, he also retroactively ruined his entire life.  Unintentionally, but still.  And all to hold a door for maybe like 2 minutes, meaning somebody else is still going to need to step up to keep Bran alive next episode (oh please please be Benjen...)

Yeah, I'm not really a fan of time-loop storylines. But after digesting it more and doing more research, I understand and appreciate this a little better. He's not really changing the past - he's causing the past. With his vision of the past, we have to essentially think of Bran as outside of time itself. So, yeah, this is obviously going to be a major storyline the rest of the way, and he's undoubtedly caused things to happen in the past that we will begin to learn about as the show goes on.

But, yeah, pretty much Hodor's entire life boiled down to serving Bran, with the main part being him  holding the door for two minutes to allow him and Meera to escape. I'm still not a big fan of using the time-loop narrative tool here to cause/change events in the past, because I think just vision of the past to help Bran learn things would've sufficed for the story. However, it will be incredibly interesting to see where they go with Bran from here, e.g. is he really Bran the builder?

Yeah they seem to be going with the Lost-style "whatever happened, happened" approach.  Bran didn't change the past because he had always fried Wyllis/Hodor's brain at that moment.

Of course that gets real deterministic in a hurry, but I take the Mystery Science Theater approach whenever I start thinking too much about it - repeat to myself "it's just a show, I should really just relax" 

Exactly lol It's kind of silly to argue metaphysics/philosophy when you're accepting magical elements like dragons, demon shadow babies, and Children of the Forest creating freaking White Walkers from humans.

It's similar to how everyone would question Family Guy for having a baby talk without saying a thing about Brian the dog talking. lol

[jpotter33]

Book Readers, let me ask you a question:

Are you enjoying this season more than previous seasons since most of the content hasn't already been covered in the books?

In the past, I have largely judged movie adaptations from novels on how well they stuck to the novel's plot/story line. The closer the movie was to the novel, the better. For example, the Chronicles of Narnia: the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe movie was very close to the actual book's plot/story line, so I really enjoyed the movie. On the other hand, other movie adaptations I haven't really enjoyed due to them straying so far from the novel.

So do you enjoy the television series as much as the books with how far they've strayed from the books?

[LarBrd33]

Wow. Just another incredible episode by GoT. This is by far my favorite season of the series, and we're only halfway through! So many things in that episode to talk about:

First, what incredible storytelling with the Hodor narrative. Martin has had that in his head since the beginning, and even being a non-vital component of the overall story, that was just an incredible narrative with how it was set up and played out. However, the philosopher in me wants to poke holes in the story due to its reliance on the grandfather paradox, though I'm not sure how relevant logic/metaphysics is when we're also talking about flashbacks via "greensight" in wargs. 

Second, this is the first mention of the Children creating the White Walkers from Man, isn't it? Talk about a backfire! I thought that was a very interesting part of the episode, because I was under the impression that the Children were fighting the Walkers long before the First Men even came over to Westeros.

Third, did anyone else catch yet another hint confirming R + L = J?? When Little Finger was leaving and said "HALF brother." Yeah, the "half" part wouldn't matter, that is unless the other half is also Targaryen.

So, yeah, what an excellent episode. There was also a recent fan theory that emerged after the Tower of Joy scene that theorized that Bran's meddling in the past actually caused most of the events emanating from the Mad King. You can read about it here: http://www.nme.com/blogs/nme-blogs/game-of-thrones-season-six-time-travel-paradox-theory

After this episode, that doesn't seem so crazy, huh? I'm really interested to see where they go with the Bran storyline from here on out. He was supposed to be the weapon to stop the White Walkers, but I'm not sure how that works out now. I'm guessing the time travel/flashback/manipulating the past stuff is going to play a role, because there's a reason that the Three-Eyed Raven took Bran there to see the Hodor stuff right before he was killed.

Though there is some contradictory stuff there. In the books, the Three-Eyed Raven told Bran, "The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it." But isn't that exactly what the Hodor situation was - the future influencing the past? It'll be interesting to see where this goes from here.

EDIT: So I just read something that the reason he was able to manipulate the past was because he was "greenseeing" while also "warged" into Hodor, which created some sort of connection that affected Hodor in the past where Bran was "greenseeing." My brain hurts lol

assuming the Jon theory is true, which at this point I'd be shocked if it isn't, doesn't that just make them cousins?

The only theory where they aren't cousins is if indeed Lyanna and Rheagar's child was Danny, and Ned switched the babies with Ashara and it is his and Ashara's baby and not Ashara's and Brandon's (that made sense in my mind if not in print.)  So maybe Littlefinger knows something and is saying Jon IS Sansa's half-brother but more likely he was just putting Jon down noting he was a ****.

It could make sense that Ned felt such guilt at leaving the child he promised to protect with Ashara while he took his own **** or Brandon's back to Winterfell where he'd be safe.  If he promised to protect Jon, isn't that what he did?  Why is he feeling so guilty in the crypts at the sight of Lyanna and Brandon's statues?  If he raised Jon to adulthood and nobody has found out, what does he have to feel guilty about?  He kept his promise.  He should be looking at Lyanna's statue and smiling, saying to himself or her bones, "I did it."

I'm not even sure Ashara has ever been mentioned on the TV show.  I had to google to figure out who you were talking about.   I'm not sure I'm following that theory, but it sounds completely convoluted.  That's one great thing about being solely a watcher of the television show.  They don't have time to invest in irrelevant details.   Jon being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna has been hinted at the entire show.  THey have clearly been building towards it.   Some whacky unnecessary theory where Dany was the daughter of L+R and there was some switcharoo makes little sense.   It doesn't make a lick of difference if Dany is the daughter of the Mad king or the daughter of Rhaegar.  There's no shock-factor there, because either way she's believed to be the last of the Targarayens.