What Happened to Leon Powe?

[the_Bird]

Powe was exposed, but not for being a fraud. He was still a good rotation player to me.  But was exposed because of his size and for not having a jumpshot.  The problem with Powe, is that he is the same player he was when he came into the league.  He never really added anything to his game that would make him more valuable or versatile, like Baby has been able to do.

What does this even mean?

You say "he was still a good rotation player."  But then you say "he was exposed because of his size and for not having a jumpshot."

Exposed as what?  Do you think he's a rotation player or not?

Powe got hurt - BADLY - and can't do the things he could do his first couple of seasons.  There have been plenty of PFs in the league over the years who've gotten by without a jump shot, gotten by through rebounding and garbage points.  A random name that pops in my mind is a guy like Reggie Evans, an undersized big man who's nobody's idea of a star but who has put together a pretty decent career on the strength of rebounding and getting garbage points.  You don't NEED a jump shot to be a power forward, not every PF is like BBD or KG.

Powe isn't riding the bench because he doesn't have a jump shot.  He's riding the bench because the things that he used to be able to do well, he can't because he's hurt. 

[Birdbrain]

Birdbrain, why are you telling why I liked a particular player?? how would even know why?  I liked him as a player for two reasons, and in order:

1)  He was productive on the court
2)  He was a hard worker and more mature than a lot of NBA players.

For some reason you're completely discounting #1, and denying history itself.  He was more productive than Davis back then by every measure possible.  I'm not saying I wish we re-signed him, b/c with the injuries I would agree he would be a bad backup now.  

I didn't even mention how BBD's BBIQ was and is light years beyond Powe. That's something you know by actually having played BBall.  The little intricacies of moving without the ball, spacing, and passing too open spots.  These are things the Hollinger's of the world can't rationalize because there isn't a stat for it.  They were apparent in his rookie year along with his outstanding athleticism for his size. 

[Birdbrain]

Again not even close. BBD might as well be Jordan in comparison with regards to athletic ability.

How do you figure? BBD was out of shape his first 2 years here, he couldn't (and still can't) jump for crap. Powe might be an average athlete for a 6'8 (probably closer to 6'6 or 6'7) guy, but he was faster, and able to jump higher than BBD, and had a comparable reach.

Glen Davis has and had better footwork, and right now he's probably the most agile 290 lb guy in the league, but that's not where he has always been. Powe was stronger while BBD was here, and he was more athletic.

Athletic ability isn't all vert.

He was responding to the assertion that powe had

"no athletic ability, even pre injury" which is utterly ridiculous.

Sure, that's hyperbole. But are we talking pre-injury Cal days or pre injury high school days? Because he was fairly unathletic during his tenure on the celtics.

I disagree, he was a medium speed 6'8 player who always ran the floor with good ups and relatively quick feet for a 4 who had explosive power to the rim, both for rebounds and finishing.

Now, if you want to make the argument he was one dimensional and not that technically skilled, then i'm 100% with you, he had no game beyond 10 feet out and boxing out on the boards, but that had to do with an absence of anything approaching technique or fundamentals outside of a decent hook and rebounding, not his athleticism.

and as indeed said, since his game was built on that athleticism and he has a dreadful lack of technique and touch, His loss of ability means he isn't an NBA player.

I'd say Leon's explosions for boards came more from his considerable strength forcing the person he boxed out even further back. 

He certainly didn't have Baby's speed or agility.

I don't think baby had baby's speed and agility back then when he was still packing the senior 30 from LSU

No he most certainly did.  And of that top 10 list there are more at least a few he's much better than.  We got lucky.

[Fafnir]

No he most certainly did.  And of that top 10 list there are more at least a few he's much better than.  We got lucky.

Who?

Care to rank that draft for me in your view?

[Bankshot]

Powe was exposed, but not for being a fraud. He was still a good rotation player to me.  But was exposed because of his size and for not having a jumpshot.  The problem with Powe, is that he is the same player he was when he came into the league.  He never really added anything to his game that would make him more valuable or versatile, like Baby has been able to do.

What does this even mean?

You say "he was still a good rotation player."  But then you say "he was exposed because of his size and for not having a jumpshot."

Exposed as what?  Do you think he's a rotation player or not?

Powe got hurt - BADLY - and can't do the things he could do his first couple of seasons.  There have been plenty of PFs in the league over the years who've gotten by without a jump shot, gotten by through rebounding and garbage points.  A random name that pops in my mind is a guy like Reggie Evans, an undersized big man who's nobody's idea of a star but who has put together a pretty decent career on the strength of rebounding and getting garbage points.  You don't NEED a jump shot to be a power forward, not every PF is like BBD or KG.

Powe isn't riding the bench because he doesn't have a jump shot.  He's riding the bench because the things that he used to be able to do well, he can't because he's hurt. 

A compliment to Baby that you put his game close to KG's.  But different from Powe, Baby made himself into a good versatile player, while Powe is still the same player he was when he came into the league.

Undersized guys like Powe and Baby need to add more to their games than just rebounding, because if not there would be only a few matchups where they would be effective.  Powe also didn't appear to have a high BBIQ.  Doc often went to Baby as a rookie in crunch time over Powe because Baby picked up the defensive schemes and Powe still hadn't even after being with the team a whole year ahead of Baby. Doc often mentioned Powe not being able to pick up the defensive schemes.

[Fafnir]

Undersized guys like Powe and Baby need to add more to their games than just rebounding, because if not there would be only a few matchups where they would be effective.  Powe also didn't appear to have a high BBIQ.  Doc often went to Baby as a rookie in crunch time over Powe because Baby picked up the defensive schemes and Powe still hadn't even after being with the team a whole year ahead of Baby. Doc often mentioned Powe not being able to pick up the defensive schemes.

What you say is true, though doc usually went small with Posey in "crunch-time" if he wasn't playing Perkins. Powe's defensive lapses cost him a lot of playing time that year.

[KCattheStripe]

Final Four runs have the effect of vastly inflating player's draft stock. There have been a number of brief studies put together on it showing that can be as big as a ten slot jump.

I do agree that he looked fast and athletic for a college player in that Final Four run. I didn't think he'd be as effective of a pro however. He was almost exclusively a post player at LSU.

In Baby's case, it inflated it correctly, as he was a top 10 player in that draft class. In contrast, his lack of teammates and his teams poor performance in the following year made teams undervalue him so we can snag him.

I don't think he's top 10, though he's certainly much higher than 35th.

Oden
Durant
Conley
Horford
Marc Gasol
Jeff Green
Joakim Noah
Aaron Brooks
Ramon Sessions
Rodney Stuckey
Marco Belinelli


I rate all these players as better or at worst comparable. There are a couple of other players who haven't produced but still have good potential in my eyes. (Al Thorton/Thad Young types)

2006 was that final four run. He's top 10 in the 2006 draft class, but for what it's worth I'd rather have a durable big with a variety of skills than ok scoring guards (Sessions, Bellinelli, Stuckey on his bad nights) and a big who is never healthy.

[the_Bird]

A compliment to Baby that you put his game close to KG's.  

All I said in comparison was that they were both jump-shooting bigs.  You might as well through Scal in there, too

[Fafnir]

Final Four runs have the effect of vastly inflating player's draft stock. There have been a number of brief studies put together on it showing that can be as big as a ten slot jump.

I do agree that he looked fast and athletic for a college player in that Final Four run. I didn't think he'd be as effective of a pro however. He was almost exclusively a post player at LSU.

In Baby's case, it inflated it correctly, as he was a top 10 player in that draft class. In contrast, his lack of teammates and his teams poor performance in the following year made teams undervalue him so we can snag him.

I don't think he's top 10, though he's certainly much higher than 35th.

Oden
Durant
Conley
Horford
Marc Gasol
Jeff Green
Joakim Noah
Aaron Brooks
Ramon Sessions
Rodney Stuckey
Marco Belinelli


I rate all these players as better or at worst comparable. There are a couple of other players who haven't produced but still have good potential in my eyes. (Al Thorton/Thad Young types)

2006 was that final four run. He's top 10 in the 2006 draft class, but for what it's worth I'd rather have a durable big with a variety of skills than ok scoring guards (Sessions, Bellinelli, Stuckey on his bad nights) and a big who is never healthy.

Hmm in 2006 he's closer to top 10, though he's still borderline.

Roy
Rondo
Rudy Gay
Tyrus Thomas
Paul Milsap
Thabo Shelofosa
J.J. Redick
Lamarcus Aldridge
Bargs
Kyle Lowry
Shannon Brown
Craig Smith

Is the quick list that are better or comparable to BBD. Less players that are better and more that are on par.

[KCattheStripe]

Final Four runs have the effect of vastly inflating player's draft stock. There have been a number of brief studies put together on it showing that can be as big as a ten slot jump.

I do agree that he looked fast and athletic for a college player in that Final Four run. I didn't think he'd be as effective of a pro however. He was almost exclusively a post player at LSU.

In Baby's case, it inflated it correctly, as he was a top 10 player in that draft class. In contrast, his lack of teammates and his teams poor performance in the following year made teams undervalue him so we can snag him.

I don't think he's top 10, though he's certainly much higher than 35th.

Oden
Durant
Conley
Horford
Marc Gasol
Jeff Green
Joakim Noah
Aaron Brooks
Ramon Sessions
Rodney Stuckey
Marco Belinelli


I rate all these players as better or at worst comparable. There are a couple of other players who haven't produced but still have good potential in my eyes. (Al Thorton/Thad Young types)

2006 was that final four run. He's top 10 in the 2006 draft class, but for what it's worth I'd rather have a durable big with a variety of skills than ok scoring guards (Sessions, Bellinelli, Stuckey on his bad nights) and a big who is never healthy.

Hmm in 2006 he's closer to top 10, though he's still borderline.

Roy
Rondo
Rudy Gay
Tyrus Thomas
Paul Milsap
Thabo Shelofosa
J.J. Redick
Lamarcus Aldridge
Bargs
Kyle Lowry
Shannon Brown
Craig Smith

Is the quick list that are better or comparable to BBD. Less players that are better and more that are on par.

I'd rather have Baby than:

JJ
Craig Smith
Shannon Brown
Bargs

Either way, still a lottery pick.

[Fafnir]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=sIQMZ

Craig Smith is very comparable to Davis in my eyes, less versatile in that he's not comfortable taking 18 footers I suppose. But then again taking 18 foot jump shots and making 36% of them isn't exactly a difference maker between two players. Smith shoots about as well from that distance, he just shoots less of them.

[KCattheStripe]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=sIQMZ

Craig Smith is very comparable to Davis in my eyes, less versatile in that he's not comfortable taking 18 footers I suppose. But then again taking 18 foot jump shots and making 36% of them isn't exactly a difference maker between two players. Smith shoots about as well from that distance, he just shoots less of them.

He also isn't good enough on D to earn minutes on the Clips.

[Fafnir]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=sIQMZ

Craig Smith is very comparable to Davis in my eyes, less versatile in that he's not comfortable taking 18 footers I suppose. But then again taking 18 foot jump shots and making 36% of them isn't exactly a difference maker between two players. Smith shoots about as well from that distance, he just shoots less of them.

He also isn't good enough on D to earn minutes on the Clips.

He's getting relatively consistent minutes as on of two primary back up big man. He's a backup 4 man, same as Davis. They're going to keep laying Jordan/Griffin trying to develop them. Its tough to develop as a defensive player when you're on the Wolves/Clippers!

[KCattheStripe]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=sIQMZ

Craig Smith is very comparable to Davis in my eyes, less versatile in that he's not comfortable taking 18 footers I suppose. But then again taking 18 foot jump shots and making 36% of them isn't exactly a difference maker between two players. Smith shoots about as well from that distance, he just shoots less of them.

He also isn't good enough on D to earn minutes on the Clips.

He's getting relatively consistent minutes as their primary back up big man. He's a backup 4 man, same as Davis. They're going to keep laying Jordan/Griffin trying to develop them.

So he's getting semi-consistent minutes on a terrible team and the Baby is getting consistent minutes on a Great team.

[Fafnir]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=sIQMZ

Craig Smith is very comparable to Davis in my eyes, less versatile in that he's not comfortable taking 18 footers I suppose. But then again taking 18 foot jump shots and making 36% of them isn't exactly a difference maker between two players. Smith shoots about as well from that distance, he just shoots less of them.

He also isn't good enough on D to earn minutes on the Clips.

He's getting relatively consistent minutes as their primary back up big man. He's a backup 4 man, same as Davis. They're going to keep laying Jordan/Griffin trying to develop them.

So he's getting semi-consistent minutes on a terrible team and the Baby is getting consistent minutes on a Great team.

Baby was drafted by a great team, Smith was drafted by a terrible team. When this team was healthy last year Davis got Craig Smith minutes, I expect the same will happen this year if we get healthy.